Do We Have Two Popes?
  • Same with me.
    I've sung too many high notes in my life and I can't keep straight all the details.

    Melo, by "friendly fire" I meant here on the forum, directed towards Francis. Totally in agreement with Kathy's 1:17 comment.

    Lets just follow the conspiracy for a bit and imagine its true. What would we do as faithful? Storm the Vatican? Sneak BXVI out and get the real story? Yeah, a pope resigning is problematic but its not unheard of.

    I don't get the big deal.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    MACW

    There is one thing Our Lady has asked of us. Pray, pray, pray... especially the rosary, and make sure your soul is in a state of grace.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    are the words, "WHICH, IF TRUE would have invalidated his resignation." goes totally against what is said by

    ronkrisman February 24 Thanks
    Posts: 473
    But, of course, the Supreme Pontiff, possessing supreme legislative authority in the Church, is not bound by and is able to change a disciplinary law of one of his predecessors.

    and claimed by others, including church authorities. It can't be both ways. Which is it?


    There isn't a contradiction here. If you have read what the 1983 Code says about renunciation of the papal office, you will recall that it says that the renunciation must be made freely in order to be valid.

    I don't think that is so hard to understand: and it's not contradictory to Fr. K's point; as far as I can tell, Benedict XVI's renunciation didn't involve him dispensing himself from any laws, or changing any.
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    Much of this thread was very interesting. Some of it was really funny too. Still, accuracy is important. In the United States, the President has no legislative powers. His powers would be executive.

    As to the two popes question, the only person exercising papal authority now is Pope Francis. IMHO until there is another claimant to the throne of St. Peter, there is no controversy.
    Thanked by 1Blaise
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    chonak:

    This is what was in the article that causes the conflict...

    According to that article, "Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI has firmly refuted speculation that he was forced to resign the papacy which, if true, would have invalidated his resignation."


    Do you have any idea what this is referring to? Is this referring to canon law?
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I'm still very, very confused as to what this thread is about.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Francis, for a papal renunciation to be valid, it has to be made freely; yes, that's in the Code of Canon Law. So if the Pope had been forced to declare a renunciation, the renunciation would have been invalid.
  • I am as confused as Ben! Whence, pray, this suggestion, this notion, this insinuation, that HF Benedict may have resigned (abdicated) other than by his own free will? Or, if he did, what power or person(s) had the competence to force him? There is none such! This entire matter is one of utter fantasy (perhaps even of paranoia).
    Thanked by 3chonak CHGiffen Ben
  • So if the Pope had been forced to declare a renunciation, the renunciation would have been invalid.


    I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) what Francis is speculating about is that the pope, as the supreme legislator and executor of the Church on earth, is able to change or exempt himself from the law at will. This has been evident with many popes and many situations, but one of the most recent that comes to mind was last Holy Thursday's foot-washing practices. I think Francis is asking if the pope can exempt himself from other parts of canon law, such as the stipulation that a resignation much be free-willed.

    Here is where we have to move from legalism to common sense, but I think I can follow the logic.

    P.S. All references to Francis refer to our forum-friend, not the Holy Father.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    THE EVIDENCE IS EVERYWHERE!

    28 February 1933 - Germany suspends civil liberties with the Reichstag Fire Decree

    28 February 2013 - Pope Benedict, the first German Pope in the modern era resigns

    (Notice - 80 years to the day! 4 gospels X 2 Popes X 10 beads in Rosary decade = 80 years!!1!)

    COINCIDENCE?!
    Thanked by 2Liam futurefatherz
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    So Benedict was the first German Pope in the modern era. What about the first German Pope ever?!

    Glad you asked...

    The first German Pope was Boniface II.

    (NOTICE - "II" - 2.... 2 POPES!)

    Boniface II changed the numbering of the calendar years from Ab Urbe Condita to Anno Domini.

    According to the Ab Urbe Condita system, Benedict resigned in the year 2766.

    Which is interesting because 800 (4 gospels x 2 popes x 10 X 10) years earlier would have been 1966.

    And 1966 in the Anno Domini system is the year Josef Ratzinger became a member of the faculty at the University of Tübingen.


    COINCIDENCE?!
    Thanked by 1futurefatherz
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    So - If there hasn't been a German Pope in the modern era...
    who was the last German Pope before Benedict?

    GOOD QUESTION!

    The last German Pope before Benedict was Stephen IX.

    Upon the death of Stephen IX - an antipope named BENEDICT was elected.

    COINCIDENCE?!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    The scandal caused by Antipope Benedict X was the justification for changing the rules of Papal election to allow only the college of Cardinals to vote.

    COINCIDENCE?!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    And remember that connection to the number 8?
    (80 years, 800 years)

    1. There are Two Pope. (2)
    2. According to the truth of TIME CUBE, the Earth experiences four simultaneous days during every 24 period.

    Which means that while everyone THINKS that there is one Pope on any given day, there are actually EIGHT DAYS OF POPE in every 24 hour "day."
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Andrew, your comment moves the focus of the discussion from questioning whether the Holy Father is able to change or exempt himself from the law to whether the Holy Father is able to change what constitutes a human act.

    Regarding the latter, NO.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    and as was pointed out earlier, what B16 says and what actually happened could be in conflict
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    This is year 7523 in the true Byzantine calendar. You are all new calendarist heretics. Is outrage!
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    what B16 says and what actually happened could be in conflict

    It could. However, the internal consent of the mind is presumed to be in agreement with the words Pope Benedict used in his resignation. If we do not hold to that presumption, the validity of all human acts is questioned.

    You may be interested in seeing the canon regarding a pope's renunciation of the Petrine ministry:
    Can. 332 - § 2. Si contingat ut Romanus Pontifex muneri suo renuntiet, ad validitatem requiritur ut renunciatio libere fiat et rite manifestetur, non vero ut a quopiam acceptetur. If it should happen that the Roman Pontiff resigns his office, it is required for validity that he makes the resignation freely and that it be duly manifested, but not that it be accepted by anyone. (1983 CLSA translation)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    Charles:

    Did a search on "new calendarist heretics".

    The first thing in Google is a very interesting document.

    http://www.roacusa.org/documents.php

    There is a link there:

    THE PROBLEM OF CONSERVATIVE NEW CALENDARISM - by Fr. Maximus (Maretta)

    Here is the very beginning. Is this what you are referring to?

    ___________

    Your Grace, Fathers and Brethren, Ladies and Gentlemen,

    I would like to speak to you today about the problem of conservative New Calendarism. By
    conservative New Calendarists I mean those who consider the institution of the Gregorian
    calendar and involvement in the ecumenical movement to be misguided, unfortunate, or even to
    some degree heretical, but nevertheless remain in churches which follow the New Calendar and
    foster Ecumenism. While conservative New Calendarists rightly consider Orthodoxy to be the
    one and only true Church of Christ and adhere to Orthodox doctrines and practices with
    admirable zeal, they find themselves under bishops who deny those doctrines and shun
    traditional piety. Although this situation is certainly uncomfortable for them, they are obligated
    to justify it, and to this end employ the following argument:

    the participation of our bishops in the ecumenical movement is wrong, but it is
    only an abuse, not a heresy; and if it even descends to the level of heresy, it
    occurs only on a personal, not an official, level.

    Thus the church as a whole is not implicated in the heresy, and one may in good conscience
    continue in communion with the bishops in question. This line of reasoning underlies virtually
    all serious attempts to justify remaining in the New Calendarist, or Ecumenist church, and not
    returning to the Old Calendarist, or traditional Orthodox Church.

    The argument in itself begs the question of what constitutes an official act; yet actually, the
    distinction between a heresy official and one unofficial was never made by the Fathers. Church
    history bears witness that when a bishop proclaimed a heresy while preaching in church, his
    hearers would immediately break communion with him, while the other bishops of the Church
    would sever communion as soon as they had ascertained whether he truly did hold such opinions,
    and had given him an opportunity to recant. This was precisely the case with Nestorius, for
    example. Nonetheless, I will take up the challenge, and demonstrate that the New Calendar
    church has unquestionably espoused heretical teachings in the most official capacity possible:
    that of public proclamation by a Patriarch, and approval of the proclamation by the Synod of the
    Church.

    In 1948 the World Council of Churches was created, a worldwide organization whose sole
    purpose for existing is to promote Ecumenism and the non-Orthodox ecclesiological principles
    upon which Ecumenism is based...
  • According to that article, "Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI has firmly refuted speculation that he was forced to resign the papacy which, if true, would have invalidated his resignation."

    Do you have any idea what this is referring to? Is this referring to canon law?


    Of course it refers to canon law, but also rumors of a conspiracy amongst certain princes of the Church against his life. See the first link I posted on this thread.

    The Pope found himself in a dramatic situation when he found that they had put someone in his own house who stole his documents. This was disconcerting. Some Germans went to visit him, and the Pope said to them, "Think about it, he was giving me my medicine, too."

    In other words, he felt there might even have been a threat to his own life…


    See also http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2099276/The-Pope-victim-assassination-plot-year-claims-senior-Vatican-cardinal.html.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Francis, the term, "New calendarist Sergianist heretic," originated with Father Vasily Vasilievich of the once published blog, "The Onion Dome." According to Fr. Vasily, if it wasn't done in 19th-century Russia, it was heresy.

    My own Byzantine church uses the Gregorian calendar, although some churches still use the old calendar. Even the Russians, who are about the most conservative of the Orthodox, will interface with the Gregorian enough to work with the majority of the world's countries. They still date church year and major liturgical feasts with the old calendar.

    You did notice, I hope, that the group you quote is a bit out of the mainstream of Orthodoxy.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I can understand him thinking that, or even thinking it.

    But - do we really think that Benedict would step down like a coward, in fear of his life?

    Every Pope knows that -even without a conspiracy - the office puts its holder at risk for assassination and martyrdom.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Francis, the term, "New calendarist Sergianist heretic," originated with Father Vasily Vasilievich of the once published blog, "The Onion Dome." According to Fr. Vasily, if it wasn't done in 19th-century Russia, it was heresy.


    Since the internet was an invention of the late 20th Centrury, his own commitment to logical consistency eventually forced him to retire from blogging.

    #truestory
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Alex Riggle was the persona behind Fr. Vasily. Why he stopped publishing, I am not 100% positive. I have heard the blog was too much work, and far from profitable.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    Yes, ronkrisman. I read all of it again (for the umpteenth time) to make sure I understood it. I ask what seem like "naive" questions sometimes, just to make sure that I do not overlook facts, and often it sheds new light on the subject at hand since I do not insert my own influence or opinion. Christ used this method often when he was questioned, especially by his enemies. Many times he answered a question with a question.

    Most of what has turned up here I already knew ages ago. I just want other peoples input to verify the truth of what I already know and also to disclose what is not known to many that they might also know the truth.
  • G
    Posts: 1,400
    Please tell me y'all are gonna fast from this, come Lent.

    I think after reading about the Time Cube I need to shirazicize the rest of my day....

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
    (Save me a glass of whatever that is you're drinking)
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    hmmm... missed the part about the Time Cube...
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Fast begins Monday for those of us in the Eastern camp. No meat, dairy, or eggs until Easter. Dark chocolate is allowed, since good dark chocolate contains no dairy. BTW, fish is meat.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    ronkrisman 9:58AM Thanks
    Posts: 479

    It could. However, the internal consent of the mind is presumed to be in agreement with the words Pope Benedict used in his resignation. If we do hold to that presumption, the validity of all human acts is questioned.


    Almost all people aren't forced to say things they don't actually mean. Those who I know who live in truth are trusted. The pope emeritus in his present situation is, however, an entirely different matter. And his actions are saying something quite different than his words.

    The validity of those who do not live in the light is always questioned. Unfortunately, the Vatican is riddled with it.
  • G
    Posts: 1,400
    "Those who I know who live in truth are trusted. The pope emeritus in his present situation is, however, an entirely different matter. "

    Arghhhhh! Why couldn't I take my own advice and just stop reading?
    When Joseph Ratzinger is so spoken of, I am tempted to ask if there is anyway on these fora to block certain posters from ones own feed.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
    Thanked by 1ronkrisman
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Have some chocolate, G, and relax. LOL.
    Thanked by 1ronkrisman
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    G...

    I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying.

    I TRUST Pope Emeritus (keep forgetting to put the E word in there) Benedict entirely. But it is possible he may be in a very compromised situation (even now). (In his words, 'surrounded by wolves'.) Especially because of the 'report' he was preparing to reveal just before he quickly 'retired'.

    Of course it refers to canon law, but also rumors of a conspiracy amongst certain princes of the Church against his life. See the first link I posted on this thread.

    The Pope found himself in a dramatic situation when he found that they had put someone in his own house who stole his documents. This was disconcerting. Some Germans went to visit him, and the Pope said to them, "Think about it, he was giving me my medicine, too."


    In other words, he felt there might even have been a threat to his own life…
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I think after reading about the Time Cube I need to shirazicize the rest of my day....


    If you would acknowledge
    simple existing math proof
    that 4 harmonic corner days
    rotate simultaneously around
    squared equator and cubed
    Earth, proving 4 Days, Not
    1Day,1Self,1Earth or 1God
    that exists only as anti-side.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    I'm still very, very confused as to what this thread is about.


    This thread is happening because some people are spreading false rumors about Pope Benedict's renunciation: a poor-judgment pundit speculating over here, a phony mystic claiming messages from Heaven over there, feeding the itching ears of the curious.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    This thread is happening because some people are spreading false rumors about Pope Benedict's renunciation: a poor-judgment pundit speculating over here, a phony mystic claiming messages from Heaven over there, feeding the itching ears of the curious.


    ...and because some of us think that these rumors are so obviously ridiculous that the only proper response is absurdist performance art.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Little Joe, fess up now- your perfomance art was fo' real, an' you wanna usher in 21st C. DaDa-ism as a paean to HHF's modus operandi. See what I did there?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    It's in the press again, but not the mainstream media:

    http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/05/two-popes-has-papacy-become-diarchy.html

    Electrifying to say the least.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    this part:

    That is to say, we discover, that Benedict XVI did not intend to renounce the munus petrinus, nor the office, or the duties, i.e. which Christ Himself attributed to the Head of the Apostles and which has been passed on to his successors. The Pope intended to renounce only the ministerium, which is the exercise and concrete administration of that office. In the formula employed by Benedict, primarily, there is a distinction between the munus, the papal office, and the execution, that is the active exercise of the office itself: but the executio is twofold: there is the governmental aspect which is exercised agendo et loquendo - working and teaching; but there is also the spiritual aspect, no less important, which is exercised orando et patendo – praying and suffering. It is that which would be behind Benedict XVI’s words : “I do not return to private life […] I no longer bear the power of office for the governance of the Church, but in the service of prayer I remain, so to speak, in the enclosure of Saint Peter.” “Enclosure” here would not be meant only in the sense of a geographical place, where one lives, but also a theological “place.”

    Key words, "I REMAIN"

    and this:

    To cite Professor Violi: “Benedict XVI divested himself of all the power of government and command inherent in his office, without however, abandoning his service to the Church: this continues through the exercise of the spiritual dimension of the pontifical munus entrusted to him. This he did not intend renouncing. He renounced not his duties, which are, irrevocable, but the concrete execution of them.” Is it perhaps for this that Francis seems not to be fond of calling himself “Pope” aware as he is of sharing the pontifical munus, at least in the spiritual dimension, with Benedict?

    and then, this...
    [Yesterday] a page written by Messori in the “Corriere della Sera” (with the title: “Here is why we truly have two Popes”) disclosed a sensational revelation: Benedict XVI, in renouncing his mandate by using certain expressions, left: “only his power of government and command over the Church.”

    Nevertheless he maintains” the munus, the papal office” which “is irrevocable”. He renounced only “its concrete exercise.” Which means that the Church would really have “two Popes” – a diarchy.

    This revelation is truly sensational. It is a shame that it was already made and commented upon – many times, with plenty of argumentation – three months ago, here in the columns of “Libero” (four installments of my inquiry, starting on February 9).

    Three months later, Messori and the “Corriere” presented all of it as if it were their own scoop (taking as a pretext one of the essays by a canon lawyer which came out recently), without referring to everything that had happened between February and March.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Sounds like another conspiracy theory in the making.
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    This is because of chemtrails, right?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    We couldn't have possibly landed on the moon.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Let's say the article about two popes is right.
    (I read it. It seems reasonable.)

    WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?

  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    Adam

    I give you the end of the article.

    Is everything just fine then? Is everybody happy? It is exactly the opposite. Messori in fact, as an “insider” – cannot ignore that this situation – as he outlines it – does not have any theological nor canonical foundation.

    Through the Divine Constitution of the Church, in reality only one can be the Pope. And if it is as Messori says – Benedict XVI “did not intend to renounce the pontifical munus” which “is irrevocable” what kind of demission is his?

    Messori knows well that his entire article induces one to ask a dramatic question (who is the Pope?), but he avoids carefully formulating it, allowing the reader to pose it. Why? Is this article a signal that many are posing it in Church circles?


    Confusing? Perplexing? Fascinating? I experience all of these.

    Perhaps the difference it will make will be forthcoming?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Either the constitution of the Church is protected by the Holy Spirit, or it isn't.

    If it is, there is no need to worry.

    If it isn't, there is nothing that is worth worrying over.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    This is, btw, simply fodder for Magister's circle to claim continued relevance in the current pontificate (they were the center of gossip in the previous one). It really isn't about the papacy, but about something much more mundane.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Either the constitution of the Church is protected by the Holy Spirit, or it isn't.


    Yes, but that doesn't mean that every thing will go smoothly. We had bad popes, bad clergy and bad PIPs in the past. They did horrible things. Yes the Church is protected by the Holy Spirit, but the way it is protected sometimes comes from individuals (no doubt inspired to do so) setting it back on course.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    The gates of hell will not prevail against it, but they will sure the hell try.
    Thanked by 1donr
  • I don't see him as having any legislative authority... The Vatican won't come out with any more official Benny16 documents. His role as Emeritus is something between him and God more than between him and the Church.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    I don't see him as having any legislative authority...
    Yes, this is the part of his papacy that he 'halved' to Pope Francis

    His role as Emeritus is something between him and God more than between him and the Church.
    However, this is the part that he may have reserved for himself. But as the article suggests, he MAY be the TRUE pope, and decided that through his ultimate authority.
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    Really? We're back to conspiracy theories? Again?