Do We Have Two Popes?
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,086
    If people want to speculate about the future of the Church, they should read that holy book, A Canticle for Leibowitz. Look at the REALLY big picture; who is the Bishop of Rome if Rome gets turned into radioactive glass?
    Thanked by 1Vilyanor
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    I have no chase to cut. I merely read these portents in other Catholic circles and wanted to get a gauge on the forum readers.

    Few seem to be aware (PMs), most don't have a clue, and the remaining make mockery of everything and anything that threatens or questions their "seeming status quo spiritual aura."
  • Padster
    Posts: 40
    Aware of what? Please, enlighten us.

    Best wishes,
    Padster
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Conspiracy theories as a cognitive predisposition are typically irrational because they are typically non-falsifiable. Worse, they displace trust in God.

    And the erstwhile prophecy of St Malachy is bunkum.
    Thanked by 3MarkThompson CHGiffen R J Stove
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    Enough with the signs and portents. If you have something to say, say it.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn Marc Cerisier
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    I have nothing to say or to reveal in a public forum. I am asking questions that others are asking. One person who wrote an article on this subject is Anthony Socci, but even the Boston Globe mentions the 'two pope phenomenon' today.

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2014/02/23/popes-hand-historic-cardinal-ceremony/1g3kXtq4mTOTLkr2cMgLXI/story.html

    I simply asked a question, 'do we have two popes?' and everyone is shouting 'conspiracy'. What conspiracies are you speaking about?
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    I suppose it could be said that we have two popes, one of whom is reigning pope, and the other who is pope in the same sense in which we refer to an historical figure as, say, 'Pope Gregory the Great'. The only difference being that Benedict is still quite alive in this world, but due to having resigned, is no longer any more The Pope than are his departed brethren. (There is nothing at all 'dark' or 'portentious' in this or in the Boston Globe report to which you refer. Why did you begin a public forum discussion in which you 'have nothing to say or to reveal in a public forum'?)

    To answer your question: no, we don't have two popes! We have one Pope and one Pope Emeritus. (If the Queen of England should abdicate, she would still be called 'Queen Elizabeth II' or the 'queen mother', but she would not be the 'queen regnant': the Real Monarch would be the person in whose favour she abdicated - there would not be two monarchs.)
    Thanked by 2francis CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    Why did you begin a public forum discussion in which you 'have nothing to say or to reveal in a public forum'?


    Read the socci article. He seems to see something between the lines. Maybe, maybe not.
  • G
    Posts: 1,400
    Socci?
    I think it is to libel Benedict to imply that he resigned out of fear - "fear unjustly inflicted" did not invalidate his resignation, and a son or daughter of the Church should be ashamed to claim or even imply it.
    This journalist Socci himself seems to have said it is "not permissible to doubt [Benedict's own] words."
    Basta

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Socci's musings, to categorize them politely, are a part of general art form of Italian Vaticanista "journalism". That is, a form of historical fiction in the making.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Adam Wood
  • futurefatherz
    Posts: 36
    Francis,
    There is only one pope. He is Pope Michael.
    (Purple bold)
    Thanked by 3CharlesW francis Adam Wood
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    I simply asked a question, 'do we have two popes?' and everyone is shouting 'conspiracy'. What conspiracies are you speaking about?


    Well, there was all the following:

    "serious questions are being asked . . . there is a swirl of controversy"
    "something odd is occurring right under the world's nose, and only a very few people are smelling it"
    "I am speaking about what is presently occurring in another realm. . . . God have mercy on us all."
    "'dark scenarios' . . . . I am wondering if we are seeing signs of something odd occurring."
    " St Malachy . . . could be one small 'hint' as to what is unfolding."
    "these portents"

    Why don't you just spit it out already?
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    In some quarters, it's a form of quibbling.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Just saying ...

    Aren't there some threads that you wish you could simply place on ignore or sink into oblivion? ... not for others who keep on flogging a dead horse, but for your own sanity?

    ... just saying.
  • expeditus1
    Posts: 483
    futurefatherz, when you laid claim to Pope Michael, are you referring to the poor, unfortunate Kansas soul who was featured in this documentary?


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPrbk4brhEE



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NMWs5Ngz9o


    When I saw these, I felt conflicted as to whether I should split a gut, or if this was something with tragic undertones. Guilty admission: Yes, I did laugh.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    Was... Just... A... QUESTION? And you have all given your input. Thank you very much!

    Thank you CHG for the final statement!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    Michael! We found you!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    I have nothing to say or to reveal in a public forum.

    What, do you only reveal the secret doctrine to members of your club?
    This is how such speculation shows its basically gnostic disposition sooner or later.
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    My club is the Company of Mary

    To learn all our secrets, please read True Devotion To Mary

    ALL secrets are there!

    We have no special handshake!

    http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_de_Montfort
    Thanked by 2expeditus1 futurefatherz
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    I can live with two popes. Avignon is a lovely place! ;-) Having two could limit the damage either could do.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    I vote this the single most perplexing non-musical thread.
    Francis, the pile on is weird, if it is one.
    Try to see it as friendly fire... maybe?

    Let not your heart be troubled.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen BruceL
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    I don't know whether it's coincidence or causality, but Francis seems to be hinting at the speculations which appeared in this recent Remnant commentary.
  • expeditus1
    Posts: 483
    chonak, here is another article which appeared on Louie Verrechio's website:
    http://www.harvestingthefruit.com/a-tale-of-two-pontiffs/
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Interesting!
  • futurefatherz
    Posts: 36
    expeditus1-
    Yes, that's the one. It's quite tragic that he's so misguided, but I must confess I've laughed as well.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    No one has seen a red heifer running around lately, have they? ;-)
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    This is right up there with the thread suggesting some unknown weirdo become NPM President.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Ben
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Who, apparently, dons a white suit in Phoenix, even after Labor Day!
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    image

    OMG - I think we have TWO AND A HALF POPES!!
    Thanked by 5G futurefatherz MarkThompson irishtenor BruceL
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    image

    Sure we do. Here they are! WAIT, that's two POPEyes!!
    Thanked by 1futurefatherz
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    No, thats the white popeye and the black popeye.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • G
    Posts: 1,400
    Adam, I thought that was Pope Chuckie, at first, did a spit take.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    MaryAnn Carr Wilson 5:05PM Thanks
    Posts: 1,278
    I vote this the single most perplexing non-musical thread.
    Francis, the pile on is weird, if it is one.
    Try to see it as friendly fire... maybe?

    FK says: Yea, maybe. How about less emotion and fingerwagging in our discussions. That might be a bit more professional and even Christian.

    Let not your heart be troubled.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen


    chonak 5:35PM Thanks
    Posts: 4,195
    I don't know whether it's coincidence or causality, but Francis seems to be hinting at the speculations which appeared in this recent Remnant commentary.

    FK says; Yea, thats one of the articles that spurred my simple question. Apparently no one else had heard or read any of this?!
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Francis, I don't think you are asking for advice... but that's never stopped me from giving some! (Ask my husband!)

    So, take it or leave it.

    My perspective, as a fellow lover of our Lord, His Church, and Her traditions (T and t):

    Do not invest in conspiracy theories. Remember that you've worked for the Church long enough to be fairly convinced that conspiracy is less likely than most people know. Not because of personal holiness, mine or anyone else's, but moreover because of the general, widespread fumbling and ineptitude at all levels.

    Sit with that faith-affirming observation. The Holy Spirit is surely in charge of this ship of fools, as our human error would have sunk it long ago.

    Beware of the Distraction of seeing yourself as part of a remnant. Let God figure that one out, and focus on your music and intercessory prayer, where you can do much good. (Insert shameless personal prayer request here- I need a rosary or two minimum.)

    You are splendidly ardent, and the Church needs your fervor applied to real, substantive things. Not uncertainties. I'm not advising you, my brother, to bury your head in the sand or not ask question. I am saying: keep your eyes on the prize.

    Sorry to be preachy. I truly hope I haven't overstepped, and wish you life in its fullest.
    Thanked by 3Ben Andrew Motyka CHGiffen
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    There's no pope secret...

    The only secret regards spices and men in white suits.

    kfcmeloche.png
    380 x 404 - 245K
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING:

    image

    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111!!
    Thanked by 2Ben Andrew Motyka
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Say it with chocolate.
    Wisdom!!
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    I just came across some of the theories last week. Check out http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=833a556326c953103d3053807773f4a7&topic=4700.0. In a nutshell: The resignation was canonically invalid because it was coerced, but also because of a defect in the Latin formula. Do we have any Latin scholars on here who can confirm/deny?

    "There will be an uncanonically elected pope who will cause great schism" (St. Francis of Assisi). "I saw a strong opposition between the two popes, and I saw how dire will be the consequences of the false church (...) This will cause the greatest schism ever seen in the world” (Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich).
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    "When the Nubian sits on the throne of New King George,
    Then the City of Seven Hills,
    will be torn asunder
    by people who make stuff up."
    -Nostradamus
    Thanked by 1madorganist
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    All that's needed for a valid resignation is that the Pope do so freely and that he make it known. There is no specific formula required; nobody has to accept it.
    Thanked by 4Ben Adam Wood Andrew Motyka CHGiffen
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    There is no specific formula required; nobody has to accept it.

    Bingo. As a matter of fact, it is more accurate to say that Benedict abdicated rather than resigned the papacy.

    In order to resign from something, you need to present your resignation to someone with temporal authority over you, and it needs to be accepted. There is no one with the temporal authority necessary to receive the resignation of a pope. An abdication is unilateral; Benedict needed no one to sign off on it.
    Thanked by 5CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn Ben BruceL kenstb
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    See what I miss by never reading The Remnant, The Wanderer, or - and is it still around - The Fatima Crusader? Reading them would be a classic case of garbage in, garbage out. I can find enough in the church and world that is bad, wrong, and downright stupid, without overly imaginative writers making things worse.

    I will take a bit of that back. Someone gave me a photocopy of an article a while back, that complained of the infamous Fr. Gruner at a Vatican gathering being told by security to stay away from the pope. I think that did come from The Fatima Crusader, which answers my question as to whether or not it is still around.
  • henrik.hank
    Posts: 103
    Is Pope Michael really an anti-pope? Does he fulfill the definition for anti-pope?
    btw, ask a canon lawyer about this subject and stop speculating and guessing! If you don't know how to sing why then teach people how to sing at Mass. Let the experts deal with difficult subjects...
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Pope Michael is either deluded, a charlatan, or both. We have had popes since Pius XII, contrary to his claims otherwise. How good or effective those popes were, is up to individual speculation - and no, I don't think they were all saints.
    Thanked by 1futurefatherz
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Yawn. Big Yawn.
    MACW, see my first comment way above yours.
    Andrew, if you want francis to put up or shut up, don't further the dialogue.
    As all of our mothers said to us (under different concerns), "Don't you know there are starving children in India?" And if they're Christian.....
    And if we really need to CSI Pope Michael, start up a new thread next to the one about Pope Joan (Chisteter.) Genug.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Is Pope Michael really an anti-pope? Does he fulfill the definition for anti-pope?


    Antipope is a historical term. I don't know that THE CHURCH uses it officially.
    (I think the "official" term for anti-pope would be something like "that guy over there" or "that heretic in a costume.")

    Pope Michael is (clearly) ill. I approve of laughing at anything that is funny, so I wouldn't chide anyone for a chuckle in his direction. But - really - the man needs prayers and possibly professional help.

    And I can't imagine anyone seriously referring to him as an "anti-pope." That term suggests that at least some meaningful group of (important) people recognize his claim.
    Thanked by 1futurefatherz
  • expeditus1
    Posts: 483
    Thank you, Adam, for not chiding me for my baser impulses. That introductory instrumental in the documentary had me at get-go. Can anyone identify that keyboard and does anybody's current instrument have a similar sound? I have to wonder what must have been the experience of the Notre Dame kids who shot the film.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Sounds like an old timey chord organ. Those used to be popular some years ago.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    The opunions which follow do not necessarily reflect my personal views. Surely they can be chalked up to my rePOPEbate upbringing.

    Get ready for a few(?) malaPOPEisms, none of which are intended as inapPOPEriate. Nor have they been bamboozled from misapPOPEriated funds, certainly not from The Color POPEle.

    Back by POPEular demand (surely I must be POPEsessed)?

    Pour yourself a bowl of Rice Krispies and listen to the sound of that "Snap! Crackle! POPE!"; however, over at Castel Gandalfo, it is reported that they have made a hobbit of dishing up POPEcorn.

    Next, put on some Renonsense polyphbobic or other POPEular music.
    But stay away from Gregarious chant, which is MONKey business for those with NEUMEatic fever:

      All around the chair of St. Pete,
      The monks, they chased the weasel.
      The monks, they thought 'twas done by indult:
      POPE! goes the weasel.

    Or, Handeled differently: The POPEle that talked in darkness have schemed a great fright.

    Are we dedicated to the proPOPEsition that all POPEle are created equal?
    In the Midwest, lest we be accused of being Looterans, we don't try to mix POPE with Diet POPE.

    Really, though, isn't all this biPOPElar POPEsession mere a POPEsteriori specterlation?
    But don't be confused, for this is quite different and in distinct opPOPEsition to a PRIORY unOriginal Sin.

    It's unlikely that any of us is a card carrying member of Zero POPEulation Growth.

    With that, if your're in or near Wisconsin, or not, and wondering "What'll you have?" ... then it is time to be handed a Blue Ribbon. That's POPEst Blue Ribbon beer, of course.

    Thanked by 2Adam Wood JulieColl
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Chuck, magnifico!
    Adam et al, who among us is qualified to declare Pope Michael ill or deranged? Deluded he very well may be, but I'd invite you to revisit the video and listen to what he's saying (outside of any of the sedevacantist talk) and then deride him as sick and harmful. He didn't bring down the four pillars for me. I'm not going to visit his website, but I don't for a moment doubt his love and loyalty to Christ, other than the obvious caveat emptor.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
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