Charles, you've caught me in a contradiction. Fair enough.

I still wish I could find some eggnog.

Thank you for all the commentary, everyone. Frankly, I didn't really understand exactly what CCB was trying to say for most of this thread (and I will allow for poor reading comprehension on my part as a possibility).

Especially after Adam's post, I think his point is this:

We should have very high ideals indeed, but you also have to make decision which hill you are willing to die on. He argues that it's not this one.

He can clarify this if I am wrong, but I don't think Noel actively works for Rodgers anymore, since that was some years ago when he had an attachment to the dealer here. He is more a free agent/publisher/organist/director/consultant these days. He does have industry contacts he can connect a prospective buyer with, but then he would have after all those years in the business. He is just as likely to connect you with the Organ Clearing House as with any dealer in digital organs. He knows nearly everyone worth knowing. LOL.

Charles:

Once in a great while I play the Rodgers (Roland C-330). It replaced a 1970 Baldwin (we used to call them radios) now upgraded to a Simulacrum. It was installed in Holy Rosary Parish (about 150 miles from my home), so it is not too often I am out to play it. IMHO, It's the best smelling plastic rose in the business!

Comments removed by author, unqualified to participate. Forgive impetuosity from all perspectives.

Sorry, still laughing and almost choking, you may have done me in! I'm still not beating my wife, if that's next on the agenda....

Ok, Kathy, LOW BLOW.

This is not the first time in this discussion that a person decided to say what they thought I was thinking. I do hope that this made you feel better.

Now your answer. Unfortunately, I am not authorized to sell organs to anyone in this group, as I am not an agent, employed by, or work for any company.

I do designs and presentations as a freelancer. I am never been employed by an organ builder, was a dealer/representative for a company until 18 years ago, decided that was not the life for me and have refused to do it again.

I'm just like the purists who fight tooth and nail to get you to only consider ONE THING, the thing they believe in. You've got to admire their conviction. But it is also possible to be convinced that every Catholic church should have chant sung in it. I think everyone in this group would agree. Many are convinced that it HAS to be Gregorian Chant. Our good friend Chris McAvoy believes that OTHER chant needs to be recognized and has merit, and he's right too...because he's not telling you NOT to sing Gregorian Chant

But we all want chant. Even you, who wants hymns.

I am violently opposed to purists who only want a tracker pipe organ in a Catholic Church. Because they are damning all other Catholic churches to an existence where organs are not heard.

We do not do this with Chant.

Why do we do this with the Organ?

For many years organs that did not use pipes - first reed organs, then amplified reed organs, then Hammond mechanical/electric organs, Analog Oscillator organs and finally digital organs. People who buy them do not of this because they do not want pipe organ sound. If that were true, they'd buy pianos.

Their lack of interest in a pipe organ can have many reasons. That's been explored here already.

Churches who otherwise for any reason could not have an organ, the finest instrument for accompanying chant due to its sustained tone and smooth attack of many of its stops, turned to instruments that are played like an organ is played, no matter how angry the purists feel about that. They've already covered that, too.

Some people thought these instruments that look like and play like organs also sounded like organs. No intelligent salesperson EVER says this. I'm lactose intolerant. Butter makes me sick. Margarine and I are buddies. I'm not fooled, I know it is not butter, but I enjoy the heck out of it, as do people who like hearing the organ playing. They may no know if it is pipe or not, they just enjoy hearing it.

Why take away the enjoyment because "I know better and that's not a real pipe organ."

I'm doing a lot to baking of bread (the bread in 5 minutes a day kind) and I enjoy it. I could just sit and complain about not being able to have butter on it with strawberry jam, or I can use margarine.

Should all lactose people eat dry toast because IT'S NOT REAL BUTTER?

Back your comments about me:

If I were offered a paying job involved with a builder or company representing a builder I respect, I'd consider it, a regular paycheck would be awfully nice. Day to day relying on consulting gigs in the economy is not fun. If that ever happens, I will need to add a disclaimer to every post: I receive compensation from ___________________ which may or may not influence my comments just as you do when you recommend a hymnal which has your texts in it. It's the right way. I'd do it and I am sure that you will too.

I'm not 'cause I'm not. Not beating my wife either. Any more questions?

I entirely agree with what is being said above about churches and organs.

At a Catholic conference in July I had to make do with an Allen Digital organ... because the other options were a piano and an old harmonium.

At the final mass, in a local parish church, the options were either a 2-rank unit organ that barely worked or a 2-manual Allen.

Last year, I had real pipe organs (although mostly electric action) at all the venues I played. Everyone was equally happy with the music at both conferences. Would it have been nice to have a real pipe organ everywhere? Certainly. But if it isn't practical or possible, then you make do with a substitute.

At the moment I'm town between two parishes. One wants traditional music, but only has an old Hammond, the other has a lovely 2 manual, 17-stop 140-year old English Pipe organ, but is proving to have some resistance to traditional hymnody. Oh the dilemma!

... and in the former church, I may have to pray for a lightening strike or some other misfortune to occur before they will replace the 40+year old Hammond.

Don't get your hopes up. Where I play the organ is 50+ years old. Lightning did strike. Then the firemen came with their hoses and waterlogged the old thing. An answer to a prayer? Some people thought so... until the church decided to keep it instead of replacing it.

Noel,

I hope that all of us pray for each other, particularly regarding our music jobs, that we will all have regular and dignified work in the Lord's service.

This conversation has been, from the very first post, too heated. When people are talking past one another and calling each other names, it often happens that there are various biases or needs that keep them from thinking objectively. "My sister was hit on the head by a tracker organ when I was five" could be one bias. "My uncle is a travelling bellows repairman" could be another. "I just can't eat butter" could be another--though I agree with Francis that there probably isn't such a thing as tracker action intolerance.

A much different problem that is ongoing on this board--has been here for years--is the problem of the ideal vs. the compromise necessary in local situations. In that case some people's demons seem to emerge with extraordinary explosiveness. "So what you're saying is that I'M NOT GOOD ENOUGH." No, actually, no one is saying anything about you. Why are you taking this personally? We are talking about what is best, not about you at all. Yes, if you take the next step and compare this particular ideal to your situation, you probably could improve. Yes, there may well be reasons for not improving in your particular situation, or there are different priorities that you have. And the reason why you ARE GOOD ENOUGH is because you are the professional designated as competent to make these judgments in your particular situation. No need to get all holier than thou or defensive or attacking others' religious devotion, for Pete's sake (this has happened several times on this thread) just because there is a standard of competence in the profession which you don't meet. Everyone has standards they meet or exceed, and standards they're still working on, or standards they just ignore for now because the priorities at the local situation cannot accommodate excellence in every single area.

Some people's reactions in this last area are so strong that if you didn't know them better, you would think that they are probably just relativists. But I think it is actually much more nuanced than that and has to do with belonging to a community.

Anyways, since I can't find eggnog and because Matthew Meloche's recipe is too complicated, I raise a glass of Campari to Christ and to all and wish you a merry Christmas and a blessed and prosperous 2014.

Comments removed by author, unqualified to participate. Forgive impetuosity from all perspectives.

overblown, defensive, and even insulting, as your own posts on this thread show.

This is very sad. It embarrasses me that I started a thread that caused this to be shared with us. Please forgive me and, Melo, please kindly ignore the comment from Rome. You are a big person and I must, at this point, evaluate my involvement here, for I have little interest in hurting people or causing them to be hurt. Please do not leave this group, or even think of it, you bring way too much light and hope to so many here.

Let's all take a deep breath and remember that we've got parish churches that have music programs which need to be attended to. Few places are ever going to achieve the ideal (that is why we call them "ideals") but we need to all find a way to strive for the best that is possible with the available resources.

I didn't take anything on this thread as bad but extremely important to the work that I am trying to accomplish. There is no way with out this thread and a couple of others that I would be pushing my parish for a new or used PIPE ORGAN. Because of this thread I was able to go into our building committee meeting yesterday and explain why we want an Organ at all. I always knew the church holds the organ in high esteem. But when someone said "There is no reason why we couldn't just use the Yamaha keyboard we have now, I was actually able to come up with an intelligent response. To what an organ is, the difference between a tracker and electric action, and digital organs.
This thread has helped me immensely. Fighting and everything!
The passion shown here in all camps is not a bad thing but a good thing.
It shows that people care, about their craft and do not want it to fade away.

So CCB thank you for starting the thread and all who have responded, thank you.

And thank you Conak for not closing this too soon.

Holy fast not over yet! No eggnog! Is outrage!!!

Oops, another one missed. Original content removed as I'm unqualified, and obnoxious and disliked like the patriot John Adams in 1776

Oops, another one...
Comment removed. Unqualified to comment and guilty of bad timing.

Or, "you demonstrate all the criteria of an organ snob. I had expected more sympathy for us is RealCatholicLand. My Bad. Of course, you're at xyz, where putti and extravagant vestry are S.O.P."

Umm ... for organic purity ... could we all pipe down a bit, please?

I've been following this thread with interest as well as from my own perspectives and past experience with organs and organ building ... but I've also been disheartened by the immense amount of talking past one another and on to personal, often immutable agendas, bordering on the rancorous. As of now, I'm glad that I haven't jumped into this fray, for it gives one pause to wonder just how ones viewpoints might be construed, however charitably they might be offered. And that is sad.

Each of us deserves respect from the others, but that also makes it imperative that each of us show respect to the others. The argument that it is worse at an organ forum doesn't mean that we should try to make things worse by emulating that other forum. It is not our place to join them but to be church musicians with our focus on the needs of our own church.

Eggnog or mulled cider or whatever suits your fancy ... raise a glass in happiness, camaraderie and good cheer to the coming Nativity of Christ.

We live in a post-modern culture that advocates progressive obsolescence.

A parish that purchases a simulacrum over a custom-built, hand-crafted instrument ignores several things, not the least of which the issue of good stewardship. As anyone with the necessary knowledge will tell you, if you amortize the cost of a pipe organ over a simulacrum, the short-term savings in purchasing a simulacrum is quickly lost when the instrument has to be replaced because, as with any electronic device, it begins to lose integrity from the first moment it's turned on.

Also, a custom-built organ is the work of human hands, each one crafted to uniquely suit the space for which it is built and shot through with beauty and integrity, infused into the instrument by every single set of hands that touches it in the process of designing, crafting, installing, voicing and tuning. As with every other aspect of our Liturgical spirituality, I think we should avoid anything that is chosen for its utility. A digital instrument is nothing more than a sophisticated computer operated through a controller designed to look like a musical instrument while possessing few of the true elements of an instrument.

Remember, too, that the Church always earnestly desires that which is truly beautiful. I think there's something false (and again, utilitarian) about opening up a brochure and picking a "console style" that houses all of the electronic component parts used to artificially produce a sound that is merely an imitation, a shadow of the original, a sham.

When I approach an unfamiliar pipe organ, it is an transformative experience, as no two pipe organs are alike. If, however, I walk into a church that has a Rodgers 950B, I pretty much know exactly how it will sound and behave, depending on how the "voicer" (computer tech) has programmed the "effects" of reverberation and other acoustic behaviors otherwise not truly present in the room itself, again creating an artificial effect.

Otherwise, a pipe organ, playing in the space for which it was designed, working in cooperation with the natural environment, being played by someone who both understands the artistry required to produce such an instrument as well as play it, is far and away more beautiful than any utility anyone can advocate, even for "financial considerations."

Once again, a small, one-manual instrument, properly designed and voiced and beautifully crafted to be unique is a glimpse of the perfection of God's creation. An electronic simulacrum is a fraudulent, hoax-filled mockery of that same perfection.

Then I would choose piano.

In addition to my parish, I'm the director of music and liturgy for a religious community. Upon my arrival at said community, the "instrument" was a digital keyboard capable of producing organ/piano/string sounds. I sought to get rid of that and instead chose a beautiful Knabe grand piano, the same make chosen for years by the Metropolitan Opera for how it blends with the human voice.

I'll take that over and electronic organ/piano whatever any day.

Once again, a small, one-manual instrument, properly designed and voiced and beautifully crafted to be unique is a glimpse of the perfection of God's creation. An electronic simulacrum is a fraudulent, hoax-filled mockery of that same perfection.

But, Mrs. Lincoln, how'd you like the play?

David's been a good friend and we are all entitled to our opinions.

If God wanted all churches to have pipe organs, they would sprout like Kudzu, free for the picking. Why, oh why, has he let us down?

It's important to remember that priests used to control everything - but everything was a church with an organ, furnace, lights....and maybe a microphone but only on the pulpit.

All of these were major expenditures....but are dwarfed today with air-conditioning systems, large audio systems, large restrooms with hand dryers, handicapped access building expenses....carpet in the church instead of durable stone or tile...hearing aid systems, cry rooms, audio for the cry room, missals....

So the business model of the past has changed but no one bothered to educate all involved about this major shift and the need for increased giving to provide increased services to the congregation.

Every person attending Mass should be handed a beautiful missal with ribbons, leather-bound instead of newsprint booklets that they agree to THROW AWAY WHEN THEY BUY THEM.

Non-pipe organs are not the waste of money as they have been portrayed, since few priests will pay for the most reliable of organs, the tracker and instead settle for organs with pipes that also, have a limited lifespan...EP organs can require releathering in between 30 and 50 years that costs the same as the new organ did. Honest organ builders make sure that the buyer knows this and at least one recommends they raise double the $ needed to buy it and put the rest in the bank to be ready when the organ needs releathered. It's not extreme, because too many Eps are abandoned instead of releathered because of the expense. How many? Well, one alone is one too many...and it's more than one.

Ultimately, it is up the hierarchy to maintain the instrument. This means that the person in charge (pastor, bishop, etc.) must believe in and value the use of a real instrument. It all begins there. Just as they are keepers of the souls of men, so they must be good stewards and keepers of the house of God and all that the worship of God REQUIRES. When we think God deserves less than the best, and is not willing to make the effort to make sure God GETS the best, then everything is just a downhill compromise from there... and music will more often than not, be one of the first things on the list to suffer from the compromise.

MJO

Aha

I spelled it incorrectly (above)

It is corbicula, not corbiculum

So sorry

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollen_basket

I wrote the poem to reflect your excellent comparison of real and fake instruments to that of real and plastic flowers. Hence, 'Where do bees gather?'

You are right to have and shoot for high ideals. You are also correct about our sin and weakness destroying what God intends for us. There is mass confusion (pun intended) and great compromise within the walls of the church, otherwise dubbed the 'smoke of Satan' by our predecessors.

I could not agree with you more on the points you have made.

The world has not only dumbed down the liturgy, sacred music and cheapened the vessels of the sanctuary, (including cheapening the organ and the introduction of profane instruments) but the very faith has been lost.

Recently we were told a couple of Sundays ago that "Jesus is not a judge and will not judge us in the end." Well, this is heresey! We proclaim it every Sunday in the Creed.

Et iterum venturus est cum gloria,
iudicare vivos et mortuos,
cuius regni non erit finis.

He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

It is diabolical confusion - plain and simple. We will all be judged, and moreso those who lead souls astray by their harmful teaching.

So I say, keep the faith, hold to the high ideal that God wants for us. Preach Christ crucified, the horror of sin and the only way to heaven that is 'the narrow gate'.

Pax