Dedication of Christ Cathedral in Orange, CA
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    Article with commentary, pictures and video of the dedication Mass at the link below.
    https://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2019/07/21/reflections-on-the-dedication-of-christ-cathedral/

    I think this cathedral purchase and renovation was misguided from the start. Too bad the Diocese of Orange is stuck with it until the Big One hits.
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    The abomination that is that tabernacle stood out most to me. Who thought that looked remotely appropriate? It looks like a third-grade art project.
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  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    Oh, I so agree about the ugly tabernacle. Maybe a cultural diversity thing? It can't have been considered beautiful nor appropriate on artistic merits. The THREE jumbotrons in the nave were also off-putting to me, and I hate the placement of the choir loft above and behind the altar. It looks like a stadium or an arena, not a cathedral.
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    "The exquisite enameled Tabernacle by the renowned 20th century German liturgical artist, Egino Weinert"

    Don't think it can be blamed on cultural diversity this time around. Just poor taste.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    Oh, well. It is what it is. I always liked the organ and hope the rebuild didn't ruin it.
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  • vansensei
    Posts: 215
    Unfortunately, Robert Schuller and his ministries only had two buyers for his $55 million glass behemoth, a local college and the Diocese...
  • Incardination
    Posts: 832
    I'm sure the purchase and the renovation both are the best that $130 Million can buy...
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  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,367
    Tastelessness incarnate.
    It has, even after spending tens of millions for the remodeling of it, the air of a gaudy, tasteless evangelical meeting house.
    This is the ultimate example of how the cheap is often quite expensive..
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I can't even bring myself to click the link... so then, don't give it the time of day, people. "O God, please deliver us from the religion of banality."
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  • cesarfranck
    Posts: 158
    There is a stark coldness and rigid angularity to this space. A sense of holiness and grace are missing. Certain views or areas appear as dull as the mega "seeker" churches that are now frequently repurposed from vacated Walmarkets or shopping malls.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    I think you have to remember what it was. It was a giant television studio to showcase Robert Schuller. It is a significant piece of architecture by a noted architect. It wasn't designed to be a Catholic church.
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  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 331
    The Weinart tabernacle seems to be getting lots of hate, and de gustibus and all that. I think it is great, and clearly harkens back to romanesque sculpture, which originally would have been painted in bright colors. It is one of the elements of the Cathedral that is not modern in style.
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  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,295
    It is one of the elements of the Cathedral that is not attractive in style.
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  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    The tabernacle's sculptured base is fine, except it's entirely out of place in the modernist room whose walls look like the transport room of the U.S.S. Enterprise. I think the artwork on the faces of the cube/tabernacle itself is ugly and out of place and distracts from the contents of the tabernacle, which detracts from praying in the adoration chapel, whose in-the-round design also distracts from the ostensible purpose of the chapel because you will be facing other people in the room. Utterly horrible, modernist design.

    The Diocese of Orange wasted over $120 million on the whole purchase and project. For about the same amount of money they could have and should have built a dignified cathedral from scratch on land they already owned and had designated for the cathedral.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    OK... I had to click on the link in order to give my informed opinion... which I wish I hadn't after all, because it is not good for the spirit, mind, body and soul of all who enter here. (and now I can't unsee this nonsense)

    INFORMED OPINION
    The ultimate tribute to modernism and the complete abandonment of Roman Catholicism.

    The choir operatic chorus on grand display... the ultimate (performing) distraction... "Hey mom, look at us!"

    The tabernacle (sepulcher?)... "They say to her: Woman, why weepest thou? She saith to them: Because they have taken away my Lord; and I know not where they have laid him."

    "O, don't worry... we have put a marble chair where Jesus used to always be so that the 'presider' is the focal point and pinnacle of each gathering!... this is more human and interesting, don't you think?"

    The altar grand table for the feast of the communal supper of remembrance and self celebration of the great US ... ???

    I keep hearing references to star trek... this is all I could think of...

    https://youtu.be/v4fU0Ajo4RM

    130 million???? surely the money could have been given to the poor.

    Can someone please tell me the significance of this graphic on the front of the grand table?

    btw... this is the quote on the official website...

    "The cathedral will be an international center of faith and evangelization, a vessel for the love of God, a beacon of faith, a home for neighbor and traveler, and a sanctuary for the human spirit."

    —Bishop Kevin Vann, Diocese of Orange.

    What about Mass and confession, the celebration of the sacraments and the salvation of souls?
    tableImage.jpg
    1500 x 1000 - 440K
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  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Francis (and perhaps others)

    Here is the anthem which should be sung by faithful Catholics outside the church building at its consecration.
    Eheu_sustulerunt_Morley.pdf
    58K
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  • NeilWeston
    Posts: 16
    I watched the live stream of the dedication liturgy on Wednesday, from the homily onward, which was delivered tag-team style by the Bishop and the Rector. Notable to me was the significant amount of Anglican chant, together with a chunk of "And I Saw A New Heaven" by Edgar Bainton repurposed as an antiphon. The choir was enormous, as was the orchestra. Normand Gouin wrote a mass setting for the occasion which utilized the melodies of the simple chant mass, delivering them in a grand symphonic style.
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  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    Francis, that pic you posted of the chest underneath the altar is the reliquary.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,767
    the renowned 20th century German liturgical artist, Egino Weinert
    I'm afraid that in a Californian context a Köln-ial piece by a Nazi veteran (conscripted, to be sure) might actually have to count as culturally diverse (unless that's just a code word).
    I do get uneasy when "artist" has to have a qualifier, though, and and it should be reassuring to find Normand Gouin with E. C. Schirmer instead of the usual utility-music labels. The Gloria on this occasion however was De Angelis. His SS Peter & Paul Mass doesn't seem much better or worse than any of the other English settings I've seen.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    MarkB

    Are those any particular markings for the reliquary?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    As I read this today, I thought about this new 'cathedral' and for me (and others) this very neatly sums up in a single paragraph everything that it represents:

    "Pope Benedict recently gave the answer in a certain sense: it is the umpteenth attempt to "create another Church, an experiment already done and failed".

    Clerics do not pose the great question at the base of Christianity: what did Jesus really bring to us, if - as we can see - he did not bring peace to the world, well-being for all, a better world? Jesus Christ came to bring God on earth, so that man may find the way to Heaven: and for this he founded the Church. Instead, today's clerics deal with the earth as if it were the permanent homeland of man. The symptom? They do not speak of the soul and therefore of its salvation.

    Thus the crisis of the idea of ​​the Church reaches maturity, denounced by Joseph Ratzinger in the famous Report on the faith. The Church is no longer considered the mystical body of Christ and the people of God ordained to salvation, but a sociological phenomenon; so it must deal with economics, ecology and politics, where at most it could intervene only for a moral judgment. Here, one can observe the influence of modernism: the adaptation of the gospel to the modus hodiernus of thinking and acting: - it is said: times have changed - a new dogma, which however does not answer the questions: who has decided that the times have changed? And then: is change always good?"

    Mons. Nicola Bux

  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    I'm afraid that in a Californian context a Köln-ial piece by a Nazi veteran (conscripted, to be sure) might actually have to count as culturally diverse (unless that's just a code word).


    In California I couldn't be more certain that it's just a code-word. In fact, proper German Catholic influence in that diocese would be far more helpful than what it's trying to thrust upon local parishioners under the guise of "cultural diversity."
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  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    I viewed the video this evening.

    IMO, the colorful tabernacle is a welcome relief from all the white and gray in the cathedral. I did not mind its romanesque style. My concerns are with some of the choices made in the liturgy of dedication:

    1. the recited gospel. Certainly there must be at least one deacon in the diocese who could have chanted it.

    2. the tag-team homily was strange.

    3. the acclamations during the eucharistic prayer: Gouin's choral parts would have received a more positive response from me had they not had Wilhousky-esque conclusions. Seemed to be an attempt to out-Proulx Proulx.

    4. Certainly the assembly could have handled a chanted Lord's Prayer.

    5. Except for the Per ipsum there were no chanted presidential prayers, most especially, the prayer of dedication.

    On the positive side:

    1. the various psalm settings were well done.

    2. the setting of the Ave Verum was new to me. Quite effective. Who composed it?
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  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,367
    A giant warehouse - that's what it looks like inside.
    Is that rather banal tabernacle the only real colour in this grotesque and cavernous aesthetic vacuum?
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    No, when the three jumbotrons get fired up at future liturgies they will add vibrancy and delight the assembly, who besides their Eucharistic bread also need their circus. The video ministry will ensure that the praise and worship lyrics displayed on the jumbotrons rotate through a diversity of colorful backgrounds. The choir's blue choir robes add a splash of color easily noticed by the choir's strategically conspicuous placement directly above and behind the altar, crucifix, and canopy.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,767
    …out-Proulx Proulx.
    That's well put ;-) I raised one eyebrow at the out-of-season Vidi aquam but can only shake my head at the prospect of listening to the commentators for the whole broadcast.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,767
    proper German Catholic influence in that diocese would be far more helpful than what it's trying to thrust upon local parishioners under the guise of "cultural diversity."
    I might well agree with you (and how can I not be fond of anyone with the handle "Schönbergian"!) but GCI includes besides Haydn things that might make you think twice. What I wonder, though, is why the tabernacle was mistaken for, ahem, something non-German? How does the calculus change if it were to turn out that the Weinert label is mistaken after all? The parish school photos I've seen are far from all white (you might recall the county went blue in the last election), so what would be being thrust upon whom?
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 331
    From the link on Weinart:
    1941 wurde er in Würzburg verhaftet und inhaftiert, da er den Hitlergruß verweigert hatte. Im Zweiten Weltkrieg wurde Weinert von 1941 bis 1945 zur Kriegsmarine eingezogen. Während eines Fronturlaubs legte er die Meisterprüfung ab. Zurück im Krieg wurde er wegen Wehrkraftzersetzung angeklagt und zum Tode verurteilt. Der Vollstreckung des Urteils entkam er nur knapp. Fortan musste er sich vor den Nationalsozialisten verbergen, wobei ihm die Fürsten von Thurn und Taxis behilflich waren.


    Calling him a "Nazi veteran" is a bit like calling Pope Benedict a Nazi veteran, and no less slanderous. "Nazi" is the name of a political party to which, as far as I know, Weinart never belonged.
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  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 331
    Except for the Per ipsum there were no chanted presidential prayers, most especially, the prayer of dedication.


    Presiders (especially bishops) need to get over the idea that if they are not opera singers then chanting the dialogues is beyond them. Unfortunately, Pope Francis is not a good role model in this regard.
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  • NeilWeston
    Posts: 16
    2. the setting of the Ave Verum was new to me. Quite effective. Who composed it?


    It's by Colin Mawby.
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  • Caleferink
    Posts: 429
    Except for the Per ipsum there were no chanted presidential prayers, most especially, the prayer of dedication.


    Is it just me, or does it seem like chanted presidential prayers have become less customary since Francis became pope? It's like, "Since he can't/doesn't sing them, why should I?"
  • NeilWeston
    Posts: 16
    It seems that many priests won't chant the prayers because they feel their vocal talents are not good enough. This can be common in parishes where the music is of a higher standard, and priests feel as if they might be judged for not chanting well. The opposite is, of course, the case. Parishes with a strong liturgical tradition would much rather have the presidential prayers chanted, even if it is not always 100% accurate. I think we all have a role to play in encouraging priests to step out of their comfort zones and chant. The more they do it, the easier it becomes.
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  • NeilWeston
    Posts: 16
    4. Certainly the assembly could have handled a chanted Lord's Prayer.


    ...considering how universally known the Snow melody is, and how little the congregation sang in this liturgy.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    I don't think there has been any research done on the prevalence of chanting presidential prayers, especially since 2011, when the revised translation of the Roman Missal went into effect. So any response to @Caleferink's query will most likely be anecdotal. That said, I don't think it likely that priests who chanted before 2011 have abandoned the practice since then. But how many, if any, priests who did not chant before 2011 do so now? The two dioceses with which I am most familiar seem to me to have different anecdotal evidence. In Kansas City, KS there has been an increase in chanting. In Orlando, no increase; but no decrease either.
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  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    I travel around the Diocese of Phoenix to execute music at Masses quite often. I don’t recall the last time I went to a Mass here that the priest and deacon didn’t chant at least most of their parts of the Mass.
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 539
    I was quite baffled by the decision to recite the Creed in English. In such a diverse congregation, with a choir who certainly could have managed the Gregorian creeds, would it not have been a much greater expression of unity for all to chant it together (or alternating with the choir) in one common tongue?
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  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,767
    No, Weinert was never a party member and his death sentence for Wehrkraftzersetzung (a crime encompassing pacifism and sabotage, besides "defeatism") becomes him very well. As indeed does young Ratzinger's desertion in the war's last few days.
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  • Dixit_Dominus_44
    Posts: 181
    This crystal cathedral is one of the ugliest churches I have ever seen. What an utter shame. Horrible conception, horrible result.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    This crystal cathedral is one of the ugliest churches I have ever seen. What an utter shame. Horrible conception, horrible result.


    I would disagree. If we are giving awards for ugliness, it will be hard to beat out the Taj Mahony for first place.

    Again, this building was a giant TV studio to showcase Robert Schuller. It was never designed to be a Catholic church.
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  • Caleferink
    Posts: 429
    Whenever I'm in a Protestant worship space, I sometimes catch myself daydreaming about what it would take to convert it into a Catholic church. I was in a UMC church for an organ recital last week where if you simply put a tabernacle in the altar, replace the plain crosses with crucifixes, and add Stations of the Cross it would work rather nicely (perhaps as an Ordinariate church given the choir stalls are in that "Anglican" style, facing each other at the head of the chancel).
    If we are giving awards for ugliness, it will be hard to beat out the Taj Mahony for first place.

    Not only for its aesthetics, but for the sheer liberal banality with which liturgy is carried out there, such that not even +Gomez has been able (willing?) to exorcise it. I guess one begets the other?
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  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    As an example of "liturgies" celebrated in the Taj Mahony, check out this "Celebration of Cultures Mass" held on June 22, which is an annual event:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Koxxk0HNc

    It's noteworthy that the cathedral was almost empty for this modernist, human-focused theatrical spectacle. At least 2/3 of the pews are empty to begin with. Take away all the costumed participants and their families, and you'd have hardly anyone left in the congregation.

    But architecturally, the Los Angeles cathedral, for all its shortcomings, is still better than the Christ Cathedral in Orange.
  • Dixit_Dominus_44
    Posts: 181
    It was never designed to be a Catholic church.


    You just inadvertently answered your own question.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    I wasn't attempting to answer any question I had. I was trying to answer your statement. You seem to expect a building that was designed for an entirely different purpose to fit your idea of what a more traditional Catholic church should look like. You are comparing apples and persimmons and the comparison isn't valid. Schuller's church is a significant piece of Protestant architecture. The Taj Mahony, on the other hand, missed the mark from inception.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    This gushing article at the National Catholic Register about the repurposing and dedication of the cathedral has the audacity to say God is pleased. How quickly and easily people claim God is on their side:
    http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/christ-cathedrals-transformation-is-an-act-of-providence

    I can't help suspecting that EWTN (owner of the Register) is biased because they get a West Coast studio on the cathedral campus.

    If the Big One reduces it all to rubble, will that be providence too?
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  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    The bishop is on the board of the Napa Institute, that outfit notorious for its guerrilla promotion of uber-progressive liturgical praxis...which might explain a curious silence from a blogger who might otherwise be expected to pump up a poll about this.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    Love it or hate it, it is a done deal. Might as well get used to it.
  • KyleM18
    Posts: 150
    I thought the music was quite good, to be honest, but then again, I like choral extensions on chant. The Processional was quite good, and I liked the setting of the communion antiphon. Also, good to see the Parry. I'm just waiting for "Hazel" to come back.

    Now, could someone please explain to me what the heck happened at their "Trilingual Mass" after the Gloria? Also, the priests wearing luaus? (Go to about 33 minutes in.)
    Trilingual Mass

    I was under the impression that the Collect follows the Gloria, not a song (poorly) played on a Yamaha TYROS. If you want to see their brand of "inclusivity" I suppose this is it.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    Thanks for sharing that new video of the second Mass in the new cathedral. That piece starting at 32:44 is beneath the dignity of the Sacred Liturgy. Sounds like something my grandma would play on her Kimball organ in her living room decades ago, complete with the synthesized percussion. Whatever it was, it shouldn't have followed the Gloria nor been sung at all. An example of diversity run amok so the "Samoan community" could do their little bit for the performance Mass.

    The rest of the music was much better.

    I'm not a fan of multilingual Masses for the sake of political correctness/diversity virtue signaling. Repeating statements three times in different languages gets tiresome and isn't necessary and isn't good liturgical practice. Choose one vernacular language and use it for the most part (preferably English in the United States), and use Latin (Greek for the Kyrie) for some parts of the Mass ordinary. Honestly, in multilingual liturgies almost everyone just tunes out for the stuff they don't understand. And also honestly, the vast majority of Catholics understand English in this country, so multilingual liturgies aren't necessary for comprehension: they are 100% diversity virtue signaling. 100%.

    The Orange cathedral is off to a bad start. Whoever is the liturgy director there needs some education.
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  • Dixit_Dominus_44
    Posts: 181
    Love it or hate it, it is a done deal. Might as well get used to it.


    Without a doubt, they are hoping we will just "accept" it, and get used to it.

    A number of us, however, choose not to; and we will fight against such terrible things.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,367
    After reading Kyles's very generous commendation of the music I decided to listen to some of it myself. What I heard was some good-to-not-bad music which, considering the cavernous environment, was screeched and shouted to fill (impossibly) the space. It had no musicality at all. My heart was, however, somewhat warmed by the lovely Anglican chant that accompanied the procession of the Blessed Sacrament to the tabernacle. In such a space as this anything approaching a genuine musical experience is hopeless. The most striking aspect of this 'cathedral' (other than its cavern-ness) is its utter and hideous lack of colour. God's creation is, after all, quite colourful, but this building has taken the current fad of colorlessness to an extreme - nothing but greys and glass. It's hideous, cold, boring, and uninspiring.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933

    Without a doubt, they are hoping we will just "accept" it, and get used to it.

    A number of us, however, choose not to; and we will fight against such terrible things.


    Unless you can come up with $200 million or so, I don't think you will convince the diocese to abandon the building. With the money they have spent renovating, they're staying. Could the diocese have built a new building for the same amount of money? Perhaps. Why they chose to re-purpose and renovate the Schuller building is a decision I wasn't involved with.

    Philip Johnson had a thing for glass even building the Glass House as his own residence. His style was definitely modern and the cathedral reflects that. I once saw and heard him during an interview on TV. He lamented the fact that he had much more money before he built the Glass House.
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