Dedication of Christ Cathedral in Orange, CA
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605

    "Since he can't/doesn't sing them, why should I?"

    The "Conversations" book says Bergoglio was a 21-year-old seminarian when he fell feverish and was near death for days.

    "The doctors were worried. Finally, they diagnosed a severe lung infection. Because they found three cysts, when his condition was stabilized and a prudent amount of time had passed, he had to undergo the removal of the upper part of his right lung."

    "The pain was tremendous," the book continues. "Since then, he's dealt with a pulmonary deficiency that, while it doesn't limit him seriously, it marks a human limit. Surely, that episode strengthened his understanding of what's really important in life."

    The pope's last surviving sibling, his younger sister Maria Elena Bergoglio, also told the AP that doctors removed "a pretty big part" of one lung, but said her brother is "completely healthy."

  • vansensei
    Posts: 215
    They really missed an opportunity for a Latin ordinary at this Mass, instead of randomly switching languages.

    The only thing it benefits is the person who is competent in Spanish, English, and Vietnamese (which, honestly, in Southern California, you could probably find). Far too many EMHCs, too, but at least it had I Was Glad.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,464
    The reason priests do not chat presidential prayers is becuase they are not taught to sing them in Seminary. End of question.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    CharlesW Liam mentions the Napa Institute and says that it's "notorious for its guerrilla promotion of uber-progressive liturgical praxis". Is that the case?

    I don't know much about the organization, and probably will never have the spare money to attend its outlandishly expensive events, but I am surprised to see his observation, since a few years ago NLM showed photos of Abp. Cordileone offering Mass there, '62 style:

    http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2012/08/napa-institute-conference-pontifical.html

    (Edited to correct a misattribution.)
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,295
    Echoing @chonak, I have never heard of any liberal liturgical shenanigans going on at Napa Institute events, though I, too, have never attended.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    CharlesW mentions the Napa Institute and says that it's "notorious for its guerrilla promotion of uber-progressive liturgical praxis". Is that the case?


    Mistaken identity. It was someone else. I believe that was Liam the forum's chief agitator and troublemaker.

  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Oh, my mistake; I apologize for the error!
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Liam
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,295
    Haha Liam is quite the knave!
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Sometimes I can't tell my agents provocateurs apart!
    Thanked by 2CharlesW eft94530
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    The Altar

    The location of the altar in the center of the room, the placement and type of presiders’ chairs, the dark torches on the ground punctuating the corners, the square mensa, and the all-seeing eye below the altar table at once bring us to a blood-curdling full stop. Can it be by accident that the altar at Christ Cathedral is a carbon copy of the altar of Freemasonry? Do we have a “reasonable hope” for denial? Even a cursory look at a Masonic altar makes the visual and symbolic link inescapable.

    If one ignores the superior craftsmanship and style of the following Masonic temple, one can see the exact parallel in the disposition of the chairs — the tall chair in the center flanked by lower seating on either side — and then the square altar with the freestanding candles. (There is of course a fourth candle in the church, for it would have looked too strange to retain the asymmetry of three.)
    I thought something looked Masonic... just couldn’t put my finger on it. Thank you Dr. K.
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 539
    For God’s sake....

    Masonic lodges stole their decorations from the Church, and now we claim a church is copying them?

    Is this square altar from the 19th century in Ravenna Masonic?
    https://images.app.goo.gl/GNXYTT6XgyjZeCNu5

    Is this Cathedra in Thessoloniki Masonic?
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Tribunes_Saint_Demetrius_Church_Salonica.jpg

    Thanked by 4CharlesW chonak hilluminar JL
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    Thanks for that excerpt, Francis. Here's a link to Kwasniewski's evisceration of Orange's new cathedral:
    https://onepeterfive.com/dark-symbolism-christ-cathedral/

  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    I am rather disappointed by this article, far below dr. Kwasniewski's usual scholarship.
    The most important quote seems to be:
    "My goal in this article is [...] to delve into aspects of the cathedral that raise serious questions about the vision that stands behind it."
    Unfortunately, he does not share any of his knowledge that leads him to his strong opinions; any attempted answers to the (very valid) questions remain 100% speculative. As he puts it himself:
    We cannot conclude with certainty that what I am about to cover is fully intentional on the part of Christ Cathedral’s designers, regardless of anyone’s pointed assumptions.


    When you are a hammer, everything else looks like a nail.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Liam
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    His speculation is admitted forthrightly, indeed. However, the fact that a major new Catholic cathedral's art and architecture are legitimately subject to speculation about the use of occult symbols and legitimately subject to criticisms about lack of beauty and lack of continuity with the tradition of sacred art and architecture is, in itself, damning, even if a positive spin can defensibly be put on what is objectively ambiguous, at best. A Catholic cathedral ought to be unambiguously Catholic and replete with obvious and rich Christian symbolism, not subject in any way whatsoever to suspicions of occult or Masonic influences.
    Thanked by 2a_f_hawkins Elmar
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Elmar,

    In a book by Joseph Pearce, the case is assembled that Shakespeare was Catholic. Near the end of the book he says something like this: If a man's name is Abraham, is that good enough to declare him Jewish? No. If his name is Isaac, is that enough to declare him Jewish? No. If his name is Benjamin, is this (finally) enough to declare him Jewish? No. BUT, if his name is Abraham Isaac Benjamin Rothschild... says Pearce ... the burden rests on someone else to declare him not Jewish.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Gamba

    For God’s sake, let’s examine your claim a bit more in depth. Just curious:

    Off the top of my head

    1. Is that the main altar that has been in place for 1500 years?

    2. Is the “throne” in the photo sitting directly behind the main altar in place where a traditional tabernacle is situated?
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    I don't think it's intentionally Masonic (although I don't buy the claims that Freemasonry is some powerful evil force either; it's just a heretical ideology like any other)

    What matters more is that it's artistically and theologically lacking in almost every way. We should be concentrating on that rather than making ourselves look silly trying to pin it to some vague boogeyman; let the church's design damn itself.
    Thanked by 2Gamba Elmar
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    although I don't buy the claims that Freemasonry is some powerful evil force either; it's just a heretical ideology like any other
    are you kidding me??!!

    http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18840420_humanum-genus.html

    They are already judged; their ends, their means, their doctrines, and their action, are all known with indisputable certainty. Possessed by the spirit of Satan, whose instrument they are, they burn like him with a deadly and implacable hatred of Jesus Christ and of His work; and they endeavor by every means to overthrow and fetter it.

    The concerned pontiff spoke of previous papal condemnations of this secret society, which cloaks itself in charitable garb.
    Many times have We sounded the alarm, to give warning of the danger; but We do not therefore think that We have done enough. In face of the continued and fiercer assaults that are made, We hear the voice of duty calling upon Us more powerfully than before to speak to you again.
    Pope Leo xiii

    (Just a start...)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    Someone on this or another post was grousing about the tabernacle in the Orange cathedral, comparing it to tabernacles placed behind or on altars. That is an innovation that occurred after Trent, another example of the west's penchant for innovation. The cathedral's tabernacle or "sacrament house" is more authentic than all the tabernacles on altars.

    Masonry is a parody of much that is in Catholicism. So no surprise that what Masonry parodies is - wait for it - Catholic.

    So veil your women like Muslims, make them wear skirts to their ankles, clutch those rosaries tightly, and furtively herd the family into mass watching out for the depraved and unrighteous hiding behind the plantings and rocks to do you in and lead you astray.

    Oh yeah, Leo XIII had visions in his nineties, an age when some hallucinate. And don't forget Our Lady of Fatima is chomping at the bit to return and nail your arse to the wall.

    Paranoia at its finest.

    Thanked by 4PaxMelodious Schönbergian Gamba Elmar
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Charles

    Are you paranoid of RC?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Isn't everyone, considering how I rule the forum with an iron rod?
    --RC
    Thanked by 5Schönbergian CharlesW StimsonInRehab Elmar eft94530
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Some of the criticisms in the article are apt, and some are absolutely silly: for example, complaining about the emergency exit signs whose format is probably regulated by building codes.
    The government-mandated bright green Exit signs seem to be written as imperatives rather than nominatives!

    Since there is nothing objective about the signs to ground such an interpretation, it seems to be purely in the mind of the beholder. Once a person has worked himself up enough imagining "dark symbolism" and evil influences, it's no wonder he wants to exit the place.

    Or did Peter actually go there at all? He doesn't say he did. Maybe all these judgments are based on press photographs.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Lol

    Missed the exit signs altogether
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    Francis, that encyclical was dated 1884.

    Can anyone actually claim that the Freemasons, of all groups, are still some powerful secret society manipulating world governments with the power to do real harm to the Church in 2019, almost 150 years later? I sure haven't seen any evidence of their activity lately. It's even questionable if they held that power in 1884.

    Or are we going to be paranoid of every last group that claims to be able to destroy the Church? I daresay she's not as vulnerable as some people believe. We have better things to do than worry about the monsters under the bed.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CharlesW Elmar
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Schoenbergian,

    Arianism is still a heresy, even if not many people advocate for it in 2019.
    Modernism is a heresy, even if nearly the entire world wide episcopate advocates for it in 2019.

    One need not imagine that Freemasonry is some powerful secret society. Rather, one must recognize that the professed beliefs of a mason are utterly incompatible with those of a believing Catholic. If individual persons assert that 2+2= 5, or that the Devil is not a person but a metaphor, these beliefs are absolutely incompatible with those of a believing Catholic.

    Since the Church is protected by a guarantee from God Himself, she's not vulnerable at all, but the individual members of that same Bride of Christ are not immune from temptations to evil.

    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn irishtenor
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    Chris, I think there's a difference between understanding the myriad of heresies that have cropped up throughout history and, for instance, claiming that a statue of Jesus Christ portrayed without a halo is a deliberate Arian plot to undermine the Church.

    The Freemasons simply aren't active any more. We should attack this cathedral's architecture for legitimate reasons instead of trying to pin it to some dead heresy. It's more than enough to demonstrate the artistic, theological, and liturgical bankruptcy of everything inside without assuming conspiratorial intent.

    I think that many times, us Catholics should be more cognizant of Hanlon's razor. Especially in cases like these.
    Thanked by 2Gamba Elmar
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Schoenbergian,

    1) I don't know Hanlon's razor, so you'll have to share it with me.
    2) I don't know where you're writing from, but Freemasonry isn't dead. There's a retirement home for Masons within walking distance of my house. I see bumper stickers periodically inviting men to join the Masons. In at least one diocese I know, the Catholic Cathedral is sandwiched between two buildings: Democratic party headquarters and the Masonic temple. (The Cathedral has moved since I was last in town).
    3) The Great Secret Conspiracy to teach Evolution and Other Nonsense isn't dead either, but that's because it's no longer a conspiracy, and it's no longer secret,since so many of its beliefs are widely held by the general population and the education establishment.
    4) I agree that there's much to criticize without resorting to a mention of the Masons, but it is worth asking what is the inspiration of the obviously bad stuff.
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,369
    One should also not imagine that Freemasonry is one unified thing. Mozart had no difficulty in being both Catholic and a Mason, the Lodge he joined was specifically a 'Catholic' lodge (bizarre as this may seem to us). Any form of secret society is a danger to the spiritual health of it's members because it invites members to exclude outsiders - as Adam Smith said “People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.”
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    In short:

    I think it's simplest to say that the inadequacy of the Christ Cathedral is rooted in nothing more than artistic and theological incompetence, rather than explicitly evil motives. Hanlon's Razor states that one should not ascribe to evil what can be ascribed to incompetence or stupidity.

    It's not suited to be a Catholic cathedral because it does not possess the artistic merit. That's the end of it.
    Thanked by 2Gamba Elmar
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    We have better things to do than worry about the monsters under the bed.


    I have a waterbed, so any monsters under my bed look like Flat Stanley.

    2) I don't know where you're writing from, but Freemasonry isn't dead. There's a retirement home for Masons within walking distance of my house.


    It is a bit hard to believe those old Masons are much of a threat. The organization has become something of a club for guys. They have no secrets. I read about a widow of a prominent Mason who put all his secret books in a garage sale.


    Or did Peter actually go there at all? He doesn't say he did. Maybe all these judgments are based on press photographs.


    Who knows. He has, I think, a tendency to rant sometimes.

    Whether or not you like the Orange Cathedral architecture, keep in mind what it was and is. It was built as a TV studio for Robert Schuller. His denominational origins seem a bit obscure and I never really understood what group he belonged to. There is some Calvinism in that building's design, I would say. It was not built as a Catholic church or cathedral and its new owners have tried to adapt and re-purpose it to Catholic use. If you like Philip Johnson's architecture during his glass period, then you are likely fine with it. If you don't like his work, probably not. Johnson's building was designed for religious theater. But keep one thing in mind, folks. It is just a building, nothing more. There are plenty of Catholic buildings that look no better.

    Thanked by 1Gamba
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,767
    You might have heard Hanlon's razor without being aware of the name.
    A Catholic cathedral ought to be unambiguously Catholic and replete with obvious and rich Christian symbolism, not subject in any way whatsoever to suspicions of occult or Masonic influences.

    From what little I've heard about The Vinci Code, St. Peter's doesn't pass this test either.
    Thanked by 4CharlesW Gamba Schönbergian PaxMelodious
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,940
    "The government-mandated bright green Exit signs seem to be written as imperatives rather than nominatives!"

    That was preciously twee.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Francis, that encyclical was dated 1884.

    The issue has been revisited as recently as 1983 and 1985.
    Thanked by 2a_f_hawkins eft94530
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Thanks RC for pointing those docs out. I am well aware of these and many other documents on the subject as I have a personal experience with ‘the craft’. Let no one deceive himself: Freemasonry’s roots in Luciferianism is well documented.

    The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita
    by John Vennari

    Write a review

    The secret Masonic plan for destroying the Catholic Church, which Plus IX and Leo XIII asked to be published. The plan basically calls for promoting Liberalism in the Church so that Catholic leaders will foster liberal ideas to their flocks. (5-1.50... More

    Before reading this book or deeming it conspiratorial, every faithful Catholic must heed St. Thomas Aquinas's advise: "Do not heed by whom a thing is said, but rather what is said" (De Modo Studendi). Taking that approach, you will realize that John Vennari is not pushing his own agenda; he quotes both Popes Pius IX and Leo XIII, who asked that the Mason's "Permanant Instruction" be published, the important parts of which Vennari quotes in this pamphlet. After having studied this pamphlet, good further reading is Freemasonry Unmasked by Msgr. Dillon, a book that Pope Leo XIII highly praised.

    Remember, this is a real issue because Christ speaks through papal encyclicals ( Humani Generis §20: "He who heareth you, heareth me" [Lk. 10:16]), and there have been many papal encyclicals and constitutions condemning Freemasonry, including:

    * Clement XII, Constitution "In Eminenti", 28 April, 1738;
    * Benedict XIV, "Providas", 18 May, 1751;
    * Pius VII, "Ecclesiam", 13 September, 1821;
    * Leo XII, "Quo graviora", 13 March, 1825;
    * Pius VIII, Encyclical "Traditi", 21 May, 1829;
    * Gregory XVI, "Mirari", 15 August, 1832;
    * Pius IX, Encyclical "Qui pluribus", 9 November, 1846;
    * Pius IX, Allocution "Quibus quantisque malis", 20 April, 1849;
    * Pius IX, Encyclical "Quanta cura", 8 December, 1864;
    * Pius IX, Allocution "Multiplices inter", 25 September, 1865;
    * Pius IX, Constitution "Apostolicæ Sedis", 12 October, 1869;
    * Pius IX, Encyclical "Etsi multa", 21 November, 1873;
    * Leo XIII, Encyclical "Humanum genus", 20 April, 1884;
    * Leo XIII, "Præclara", 20 June, 1894;
    * Leo XIII, "Annum ingressi", 18 March, 1902 (against Italian Freemasonry);
    * Leo XIII, Encyclical "Etsí nos", 15 February, 1882;
    * Leo XIII, "Ab Apostolici", 15 October, 1890. (less)

    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    one should not ascribe to evil what can be ascribed to incompetence or stupidity
    That's what came to my mind (and didn't go away) while reading dr. Kwasniewki's article.

    Something that also helps a lot when dealing with local clergy and/or liturgy commitees ... ;-)
    Thanked by 7chonak Schönbergian Richard Mix CharlesW Marc Cerisier tomjaw JL
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Ignorance and Enthusiasm make a dangerous cocktail.
    --eft
    Thanked by 4tomjaw Elmar francis M. Jackson Osborn
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    one should not ascribe to evil what can be ascribed to incompetence or stupidity
    hmmm... don't know where you came up with this... but sounds like something Satan himself would like us all to believe. I mean, let's review what the good ole Jesuit just put forward...

    https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2019/08/29/jesuit-devil-debacle-draws-fire-from-exorcist-across-ecumenical-lines/

    https://angelusnews.com/news/catholic-news-agency/exorcists-to-jesuit-head-satan-is-real

    it's a sad day when the evil one gets us thinking he aint there!

    Yall need to start praying this part of the Lord's prayer more often...

    'deliver us from the evil ONE'

    Let's think this out a little further... God must be just a SYMBOL for good. Yea, that sounds right!
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    one should not ascribe to evil what can be ascribed to incompetence or stupidity


    To what, therefore, do we ascribe the dedication of the cathedral, instead of its consecration?
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,940
    That's not a distinction in the relevant ritual book.

    https://zenit.org/articles/churches-dedicated-and-consecrated/
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    The cathedral is a reality that will be with us for many years to come. The architecture may not be your cup of tea, but the building is architecturally significant. The organ is an amazing instrument with wide-ranging capabilities. Some excellent liturgy can happen there if the right mix of people is in place to produce it.

    Many of the objections to interior decorations such as the supposed "Masonic" altar are just downright silly. Likewise the objections to the tabernacle are misinformed. It is more historically accurate than what one could find in most "traditional" - whatever that means - Catholic churches.

    Maybe it's time to move on to splitting the next hair.
    Thanked by 4Liam Marc Cerisier Schönbergian CHGiffen
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    Francis, I don't think it's appropriate to call the orthodoxy of my faith into question here because of a disagreement, but I'll leave it at that.

    The artistic direction of the tabernacle is far more concerning to me than its placement.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Liam,

    I grant you that a distinction is no longer made,.... except if one tries to use the word consecration. Then, one is informed, the term is archaic, rigidly representative of a set of ideas no longer current in the church. The same thing holds true for the "institution narrative".
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 986
    I am fond of this feature: 16,000 pipes over 5 manuals and pedal

    I am also fond of the Blessed Sacrament chapel. Weinert's work doesn't grate on me... it's nice to see something at once fresh and iconographic. Frankly, a lot of the revived "realistic" works of sacred visual art, often done with the aid of photography, strike me as chintzy in the same way as the paintings used in JW propaganda. I'd rather have something neo-Early-Medieval like they do.

    Put a couple of clerics in 60 pound, conical cloth-of-gold chasubles and dalmatics in a room filled with Weinert's metalwork, and you won't be disappointed.

    The use of the translation of O Sacrum Convivium around the skylight was a particularly fine choice, in my opinion.
    Thanked by 2Paul F. Ford CharlesW
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    A member of the Diocese of Orange liturgical team who oversaw the redesign of the cathedral has responded to Kwasniewski:
    https://rectoremeritus.org/blog/2019/8/29/a-response-to-dr-peter-kwasniewskis-comments-on-christ-cathedral

    The response is disappointingly weak, mostly an ad hominem attack, with this short excerpt containing the thrust of the rebuttal:

    No, Dr. Kwasniewski, the careful planning, design and execution for the repurposing of the former “Crystal Cathedral” into Christ Cathedral, had no ulterior motive other than to reflect not only the liturgical norms and directives for the shaping of a Cathedral Church in this post-conciliar period, but also, to draw upon the artistic genius of the artists of this age to capture visually something of the ineffable beauty and mystery of the Holy Ones whose lives have been transformed by the Mystery of Christ. There is no ‘counter-catechism’ here, but rather a ‘house for all God’s holy Church,’ drawing God’s people ever more deeply into the Eucharistic mystery that continues to shape our identity as a people of faith down through the ages. Perhaps the simple fact that our new Cathedral now draws some 14,000 to 15,000 faithful a week for weekend worship is a testimony to its power to inspire and edify by its beauty.


    Whether one agrees with Kwasniewski's criticisms or not, the semi-official response of the diocese to his detailed article is pathetically unconvincing. Merely asserting a counterthesis is not to present a counterargument.

    P.S. This excerpt shows that the author can't admit that there might be actual negatives about the cathedral project; every negative can only be a perceived negative:

    We have read with interest these comments and critics who have brought their professional backgrounds as architects, artists and liturgist to bear on their assessments of both the positive as well as perceived negative aspects of this renovation project.
    Thanked by 2Elmar tomjaw
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 986
    When the critiques are like this, why bother responding?

    It’s a trope used to relegate the Blessed Sacrament and just about every devotion into the realm of “superstition” and “fetish.” Driving the point home, the Tabernacle is fashioned at eye level, on a pillar, in the middle of a circular room, without enjoying any elevation from the main floor, and with no physical distinction or threshold between the tabernacle and ourselves.


    1) The entire room is designed to facilitate devotion to the Blessed Sacrament. That's what the chairs are for. That's why a Eucharistic text is painted onto the ceiling. Hardly relegated to a "fetish."

    2) It is elevated. On a pillar. Beneath a canopeum-esque skylight. It is obviously the focal point of the space.

    I would argue, in fact, that this space is hyper-devotional, almost pre-conciliar (in substance, not form)... divorcing tabernacle from altar for the sole purpose of Adoration, losing that visible connection between the Presence and the liturgy. But I do find it effective and beautiful, so I will keep my mouth shut about that.
    Thanked by 4Elmar CharlesW Schönbergian CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    Sometimes I agree with Dr. K, but other times find him to be a gadfly seeking to remake the Church in his own image. The folks at Christ Cathedral have done a fine job with what they had. If they are happy with it, so am I. Those are good attendance numbers, as well.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,767
    Anyone who can dish out
    What is clear is that a choice was made to avoid normative Christian symbolism and to make use of signs associated with other religious traditions — elements that narrate a tale as shocking and scandalous as any report covering the abuse crisis.

    won't be much fazed by
    The author’s overactive imagination, fueled by perhaps one too many bad Dan Brown novels, is truly an embarrassment to anyone who purports to be a serious and conscientious student of the Church’s rich liturgical, artistic and architectural patrimony.
    I'm not sure I'd call that response weak, though.
    Thanked by 2Elmar CharlesW
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    It's a forceful ad hominem but it doesn't touch Kwasniewski's specific criticisms, thus it's a weak response in what matters.

    For example, regarding the festal doors, I'd like to hear someone from the diocese explain what the non-Christian symbols on the winged creature's earring mean, why they were chosen, and why they are so prominent. That's just one example.
    Thanked by 3a_f_hawkins Elmar tomjaw
  • JaredOstermann
    Posts: 483
    The response to Dr. K reads in part:

    "The author would have the reader believe that there was a sinister cabal at work among the Bishop, architects and liturgical consultants, to purposely deconstruct the true essence of the Catholic liturgical tradition in shaping this neo architectural whore of Babylon as part of a modernist plot to subvert orthodoxy!"

    This seems like an accurate characterization to me. After all, Dr. K sees the Novus Ordo itself as the product of a "sinister cabal" working to subvert orthodoxy. If you start with a negative assumption, you will very likely find it validated everywhere you look. This is not to say that the crystal cathedral is my cup of tea (it's not - first and foremost because the amount of money spent on it could have been used to build something better from the ground up). But the Kwasniewski piece was so over the top as to turn almost into self-satire.
    Thanked by 5Elmar CharlesW Marc Cerisier Schönbergian CHGiffen
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    I think that dr. Kwasniewki is rightfully criticised for his plain assumption of (probable) malice behind things that can equally be explained by stupidity - but this still does not answer the valid questions that he asks - and fails to give at least a satisfactory attempt to answer himself.

    But in almost every cathetral and big church (and for sure the 'traditionally equipped' ones) there are usually booklets available for visitors, explaining the symbolism of artistic objects that would be obvious to must of us. Isn't there anything available in (or about) the Orange Cathedral, so that one could respond to dr. Kwasniewski: "Go there, read the visitors' guide, and then come back and answer your own rhetorical questions!" ???
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