Henri Du Mont - Messe Royale: Where to find music?
  • Laura
    Posts: 13
    I want to use an Agnus Dei from Henri Du Mont's Messe Royale that I found a recording of on you-tube.
    All of the powers of google will not produce sheet music for me.
    Aside from ordering it from Paris and paying in Euros, I can only find that it is "out of print" (according to one website).
    Can anyone help me?
    Is it really that hard to get ahold of?
    Since Henri Du Mont lived in the 1600's, and I can't find it for sale on our side of the Atlantic Ocean, I could write the notes out by ear, and print it for my whole congregation, couldn't I? Surely it's not copyrighted?
    BTW, before I start teaching it to the parish, this is approved for liturgical use, right?
  • Ted
    Posts: 145
    My 1936 French version Liber Usualis (Le Paroissien Romain) has the whole Messe Royale, and the Messe du 2e and 6e ton. But it is in square notation. I can scan it for you if you like.
    It has a 1933 Imprimatur.
  • A digitized version of a published edition (1701) is available on the website of the Bibliothèque nationale de France:

    http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9059803g.r=henry+du+mont+messes.langEN

    You can download the entire file as a PDF by clicking on "Download/Print" on the page.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    Also, it is in the Liber usualis, that is available at http://jeandelalande.org/HOME/GRADUALE.htm Solesmes Liber Usualis, 1 of 2, after the Credos.
    Thanked by 2Ragueneau JulieColl
  • Laura
    Posts: 13
    Thanks so much for the answers! This is very helpful!
    Ted, thanks for the offer; I was able to download it from the site that Protasius gave me. Thanks to Pedro as well.

    I am also looking for the organ accompaniment that is played in the recording below:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKxYo8EjjPs

    Does anyone know how I would get ahold of that?
    (As a general rule, I MUCH prefer chant to be a cappella, but this organ accompaniment is very unusually well done!)

    Thanks, everyone, for your help!




  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 1,902
    Still scratching my head at the rhythmic interpretation...
  • From the website for Schola Sainte Cecile here is a booklet for High Mass that contains a modern notation transcription of the Messe Royale du premier ton of Henri du Mont: LINK. This transcription matches the 1701 manuscript from the Bibliothèque nationale de France.

    Interesting to compare to the Liber Usualis version: Aside from the obvious rythmic differences, there are a number of sharps absent in the Solesmes version, and in places the melodies are different. The Solesmes melody is very similar to certain Graduales of the 18th and 19th centuries (check google books), so there's definitely a tradition behind it.
  • Ted
    Posts: 145
    In the youtube video above it is curious that there is a "VIII" which seems to indicate the mode, yet the "modality" of these pieces would be more akin to Gregorian mode I, which is what the Solesmes edition has.
  • I posted this elsewhere, but am going to post it again here, since it's on topic. The Dumont masses are in the works cited. Rob


    While investigating the masses of Dumont, I came across some other mass settings in a quasi-plainchant style.

    The first is Cinq messes en plainchant musical. I found it easy to download from this site
    http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9059803g

    The second is in Google Books, and is Nouveau recueil de messes anciennes et nouvelles en plain-chant ordinaire, and it is in Google Books. A link MIGHT be
    http://books.google.com/books?id=H7O6e3RjSgAC&source=gbs_similarbooks
    If that doesn't work, plug in the name. You may need to hover over the red
    ebook free button to find where to download the pdf.

    I posted about the second of these books on a Yahoo Gregorian Group and got this response:

    Hi Rob; I have had a quick look; it is very interesting and practical music.

    I notice that the last mass is in time (i.e. 4/4) if you make the square with stem a half note, the regular square a quarter note, and the diamond an eighth. Sharps and flats are marked; clefs are C and F (F has the extra blob on the left). And we have unison, duos and trios.

    I think we will try some of these at my church; we have a small but good choir. probably only kyrie, sanctus and agnus for now.

    In the triple time Salvum fac that opens the collection, stemmed note would equal dotted quarter, diamond = eighth, square = quarter. Small notes are like graces in baroque music. Two notes same pitch right beside one another are like a tied note. Sharps are x.

    In the plainchant masses it appears that the rhythmic notations is essentially giving longs and shorts in accordance with the stress of the latin syllables--as is found in other post-tridentine chant sources (not my area of knowledge) so again a stem is long, a square is normal and a diamond is short; but I wouldn't do that in a mechanical way.
    This type of notation also appears in the Merbecke Mass that was mentioned.

    William Renwick
    School of the Arts
    McMaster University
    Hamilton Ontario CANADA L8S 4M2 http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~renwick/wr.htm

    I hope these will be of use, and of interest, to those who have been looking for more chant ordinaries.

    Of course, these aren't ancient melodies; those are scattered all over in libraries where many have never been cataloged, so we just have to wait for scholars to unearth them and prepare performing editions!

    Rob
    Portland, Oregon
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,437
    There are actually three Royal Masses by Henri Dumont. The incomparable Jeff Ostrowski has made them available here which is a copy of an entire Kyriale from Poland, copyright 1957, with accompaniments by Feliks Rackowski. If you scroll through it, you will find three Messes Royales (not sure how to make that plural in French) by Dumont.

    Missa Regia I is on p. 98, Missa Regia II on p. 104, and Missa Regia III on p. 111.
  • Aren't there six masses by Dumont? Rob
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  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,478
    There are 5 in the original collection (Modes I, II, IV, V, & VI), but the compilers of the appendix to the Liber Usualis only chose to include 3 (Modes I, II, & VI), so those are the three included in Ks. Raczkowski's accompaniment book.
    Thanked by 2JulieColl expeditus1
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,437
    Do you know where 4-6 may be found? Thanks.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,478
    http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9059803g

    The Messe du 6me ton is found (in standard Solemn/Vatican edition neums) in an appendix to some (mainly French/Belgian) Libers together with the Mode I & II Masses. The Masses in the Fourth and Fifth modes I have only seen in the book mentioned above (link courtesy Rob's post above on the 23rd), and are in Medicean neums. There are other Messes en Plainchant in that collection by other composers, but du Mont's are the best.
  • Geremia
    Posts: 135
    The Missa Regia is in the Liber Usualis that MusicaSacra.com provides? What pages? I'm having trouble finding it.
    thanks
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,547
    The Du Mont Masses are usually in the back, as one of the supplements.

    N.B. They are usually found in the L.U. with instructions in French, the Latin and English instruction versions (as found on Musica Sacra) usually omit them.

    There are other versions of the Liber on CCW, that have them.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,478
    There are (for historical interest) other Graduals that have them in the pre-Solesmes Ratisbon/Medicean quares on the CCW/Lelande Rare Books library.
  • Geremia
    Posts: 135
    I found the Messe Royale de Henri du Mont on PDF pp. 46 ff. of the first part of this: 1903 Solesmes "Liber Usualis" (Mocquereau), but unfortunately there are no interpretative marks…
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,437
    Geremia, the Polish 1957 Kyriale (from the Wadowice Institute?) at CCW has the accompaniments for three Du Mont masses. Missa Regia I is on p. 98, Missa Regia II on p. 104, and Missa Regia III on p. 111, in case you need them.

    If you're looking for the modern notation for DuMont's Missa Regia I, Arthur Connick posted a nice one above here from the Schola St. Cecile.

    Also, there is a pdf of the chant setting of Du mont's Missa Regia I at the Schola Bellarmina website here.

    The only place I know of to find the other DuMont Masses is the 17th c. Gallican book Salieri mentioned and of course Salieri's beautifully typeset arrangements in English at this thread.

    Hope this helps. I believe the Schola St. Cecile also has a handout with DuMont's Missa Regia III (6th tone) but now I can't find it.
    Thanked by 1Geremia
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,547
    My scans of a French Liber are too large to post here, they are also without the markings.

    The supplements I have seen have the following,
    Messe Royale de Henri du Mont (Tone 1 with Credo)
    Messe du 2 ton (with Credo)
    Messe du 6 ton (with Credo)

    This was originally printed around 1919.

    Modern notation of the above can be found here (after the main index but before the supplemental Propers),
    http://www.ccwatershed.org/media/pdfs/13/07/11/16-24-43_0.pdf

    I have not found an online edition of the full supplement, in chant notation.
    Thanked by 1expeditus1
  • Josh
    Posts: 91
    Dumont's three Masses in chant notation found!

    I have recently downloaded Mass and Vespers (1958) fromhttp://www.musicasacra.com/books/massandvespers.pdf and, toward the end, Dumont's three Masses (Messe Royale, Messe du 2e ton & Messe du 6e ton) are given in Gregorian notation, first in a 14 page supplement with headings in Latin, then in a 14 page supplement with headings in French. On my pdf, they appear on pages 2,177-2,206 of 2,288.

    I wonder why his other two plainchant-style Masses passed out of favour?
  • Josh
    Posts: 91
    For my own amusement, as I have recently learnt how to use Gregorio online (using the Gregorio chant engraver), I have transcribed Dumont's Messe du 4e ton from the 4th edition (1701, available online) into "modern" Gregorian notation.

    I am aware that in Dumont's time, according to then-fashionable theories of plainchant espoused by Nivers et al., "square" notes were considered twice as long as "diamond" notes; but the supplements published in the 20th century containing three of Dumont's Masses did not reproduce that 17th century feature, so I omit to use any mora vocis.

    It is of course difficult to turn Dumont's 17th century runs of unconnected notes into Solesmes-style neumes that "look" chant-like; the Kyrie, being melismatic, was the hardest to cast into a plausible form (any howlers are my own fault). The repeats indicated were quite strange, so I have given an alternative ordering of the invocations.

    By the analogy of the three well-known Dumont Masses, I tried to derive intonations for the Gloria and Credo (not given in the 1701 edition) from the opening of the first Kyrie.

    The Agnus Dei of Dumont's Messe du 4e ton seems to have a pleasant melody…

    Please indicate if there are transcription errors: as I say, I have only just started using Gregorio.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,478
    These are very well done. I personally prefer the second form of the Kyrie that you print.

    The Agnus Dei of Dumont's Messe du 4e ton seems to have a pleasant melody…

    That's because mode IV always has a pleasant melody.
  • Josh
    Posts: 91
    For the sake of completeness, attached below is my very amateur transcription of Dumont's Messe du 5e ton into "modern" chant notation.

    I am interested in comparing this - and its brother in tone IV above - to the other three Dumont Masses, to try to understand why the Mass in tone I became the most popular, and became known as the Messe Royale, par excellence, why those in tones II and VI are still sung also, but why this in tone V and that in tone IV seem to have passed out of common use long years ago. What about these two makes them less appealing?
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Salieri
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,478
    My guess is that the Mode V Mass probably fell out of favor because the Missa de Angelis (also mode V) was more wide spread - why have to mode V Masses in the Kyriale? Again just a guess - to my eye/ear both of these Masses (IV and V) should've been included in the French appendix to the Kyriale.

    Incidentally, it seems that the Credo of the Mode IV Mass is actually in Mode V, interesting.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,478
    Just sang through the mode V Mass. Wow. Pothier should have put this into the Kyriale as Mass VIII rather than de Angelis - so much more rewarding to sing.

    Nice mode mixtures: Kyrie 1: mode V; Christe: mode VIII; Kyrie 3 & 4: mode V (#3 has the beautiful te, giving a slight impression of mode IV). Some Mode VIII in the Gloria (e.g. first 'qui tollis'). Modes III & VIII make appearances in Credo (cf. 'crucifixus' (III) and 'et expecto' (VIII). The same in the Sanctus & Agnus.

    There are some absolutely sublimely beautiful moments in this Mass, particularly in the longer movements - why this was never disseminated as much as I, II, VI is anyone's guess, for surely it should have been widely known as well. Wow.

    Thank you for this.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Josh
    Posts: 91
    I do apologise - I seem to have missed three sharps (not very Gregorian I know, which is why I omitted them to start with) in Dumont's Messe du 5e ton - they should have been notated in gabc code with a # sign:

    (i) The third note (fa) on the second syllable of Christe should have a sharp sign;
    (ii) In the last Kyrie, the third-last note (fa) on the third syllable of Kyrie should have a sharp sign;
    (iii) The fa on the first syllable of Dominus in Tu solus Dominus in the Gloria should have a sharp sign.

    The Messe du 4e ton also has one sharp sign, on the note so, sung to the syllable of the first Christe eléison.

    I will correct the code and post the corrected versions...
  • Josh
    Posts: 91
    Dumont, Messe du 5e ton, Kyrie, corrected to include sharps (strange symbols like two x's superimposed):
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Josh
    Posts: 91
    Dumont, Messe du 5e ton, Gloria, and Messe du 4e ton, Kyrie, corrected to include sharps (omitted above):
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,437
    These are so beautifully done, thank you!
  • Josh
    Posts: 91
    The choir for our EF Mass sang the Messe Royale (but for the Credo) for the first time for the Assumption; and this Sunday, rather than attempt the full Gregorian setting of the Alleluia, they used an adaptation of the Ite, matched with the verse set to a psalm-tone (the latter sung with a drone, thus combining something Baroque with something Eastern)...
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,478
    I am currently working on an Organ accompaniment to the Mode V Mass (in the sans sharps version, which I personally prefer), when I am done I'll upload it here.

    By the way, have you thought of singing that Alleluia with the verse set to the Mode 1 Fauxbourdon from Paris? There's a link here: http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/11026/sought-after-french-falsobordoni-faux-bourdons-found-online/p1
  • Josh
    Posts: 91
    I look forward to the organ arrangement; and I suppose that if we are to dress Dumont in Solesmes-style notation, dumping sharps is the way to go.

    Some googling turned up a reference to his Messe du cinquième ton in a volume that credited some of its contents to the work of Reims-Cambrai commission, implying it was published after the Reims-Cambrai Gradual of 1851; so it appears the Dumont Messe du 5e ton was sung as late as the mid- 19th C.

    I attach a pdf of the fauxbourdon you mention, which I managed to snip from the book to which you linked. Is it not basically the mode 1 psalm-tone with harmonization?
  • Josh
    Posts: 91
    After much searching, I have found another occurrence of Dumont's Messe du 5e ton, under the title Alia Missa D. H. Dumont (with tone indicated as "De 5"), in the following work available via Google Books: François de La Feillée, Epitome gradualis romani, seu Cantus missarum dominicalium et festivarum totius anni (Poitiers: 1826), pages 704-711. The same volume contains the Messe Royale (Missa Regia) on pages 653-661, and his Messe du 2e ton on pages 696-704.
  • I just came across this thread. I like the Messe Royale. When I look at the YouTube video posted above, the chant includes the lines and dots. However, the Liber Usualis version posted above does not. Does anyone have this Mass set like the video posted above?