It happened: Traditionis custodes (TLM crackdown) (Note: discussion is on hiatus.)
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Nihil Nominis,
"Petty" demands such as yours, surely, mark you as a knuckle-dragging, rigid, neo-pelagian enemy of the living magisterium of Vatican II.Thanked by 1NihilNominis -
The mainstream media is waking up to the news,
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-pope-s-merciless-war-against-the-old-riteThanked by 1CCooze -
CNA reports a reaction by the Conference of Bishops in France. In effect, we don't know what PF is on about, we are perfectly happy to continue with our provision of TLM and with our relationship with the FSSP etc. here
They are of course in the position of having a super-abundance of available state owned churches not owned by parishes. -
>> “as you pointed out, if taken in the spirit of the bishop of Little Rock, it immediately cancels nuptial Masses, Sunday Masses, First Masses, planned perhaps for many months, without express episcopal permission to the contrary, and then arguably only in certain cases.”
And funeral Masses. -
I believe any responsible bishop will have to concomitantly provide for, expect and mandate that during the TLM phase-out all Novus Ordo parishes must have a phase-in of liturgical music and an ars celebrandi that has greater affinity with the TLM.
Not only more Catholic than B-16 (and more authoritative), but also telling Bishops what music MUST be used in the transition.
Wow.Thanked by 1CHGiffen -
So... I had started a thread devoted to Peter Kwasniewski's response to the motu proprio, but Chonak thought it would be best to merge it with this thread, but that didn't work using his moderator capabilities, so I'm copying it here to add to the discussion. I know I said I wouldn't post on this thread again, but that was when I thought additional threads on slightly different aspects of this conversation would be permitted, so please forgive me for rejoining the thread with this addition and my subsequent remarks.
Peter Kwasniewski's article is titled "Traditionis Custodes: The New Atom Bomb"
https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/5473-traditionis-custodes-the-new-atom-bomb
Peter K seems totally un-self aware of the role he played in making the Moto Proprio happen. The worldview contained in this editorial is basically gaurunteed to make the Pope need to completely abrogate the TLM to the extent that a significant amount of people believe this. If we keep going down this road, not only will this Moto Proprio stick for many popes to come, but also the TLM will get taken away from the FSSP, and everyone else. This must stop.This new motu proprio is as bad as it seems only if we allow ourselves to think and act as if we are bound by it, as if its provisions are licit. If, however, we recognize that it is inherently anti-Catholic, and that no pope can rightfully trample on the members of the Church and on her venerable rites as Francis is attempting to do, then we will see it more as an external burden, like a plague, a war, a famine, or an evil government to be overthrown or borne with until its demise.
edited to add: Peter K has been one of the foremost leaders of the New Liturgical Movement and is probably the most recognizable name out there on these topics. Given the views he's been expressing, the stature he holds, and the seeming inability of the rest of the movement to call any of this out, I think that really puts the "how dare Pope Francis do this to us, no one is being schismatic or denying Vatican II except for one or two crazies..." on thin ice. -
JClangfo,
You overestimate Pope Francis' awareness of Peter K.
Moreover, you overestimate Peter's influence and power.
His Holiness just threw down a gauntlet, and Peter picked it up. -
Not to name names, but this is a point well-taken.
The rank and file of TLM-goers just want the sacraments on a way that accords with their love for God, without the almost inevitable distractions that come from the options of the ordinary form. Same with the clergy I've met who want to celebrate in the vetus ordo.
It's the leaders of the various trad revolutions who should take into account whether they have put angry faces onto the TLM, and sought followers.
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@jclangfo
Peter K is a good man, I respect what he says. Of all the problems the Church has at the moment, the problem of the TLM is minor problem. Those that live in glass houses have thrown stones and they will get them thrown back.
Today as I took over from the N.O. crowd as a Covid Steward, they asked me what this was all about. People that have never been to a TLM think worse of Francis because of this, they could not understand why he was so uncharitable, why such vitriol?
For the second time Francis claims previous popes were wrong... This open the door wide to the next pope to point out that Francis is unique, and all his works need to be expunged.
Anyway, all our diocesan TLM venues, and priests have been confirmed by our ordinary, and will carry on. The French bishops conference have also spoken, https://eglise.catholique.fr/espace-presse/communiques-de-presse/517418-un-appel-exigeant-pour-toute-leglise-a-un-authentique-renouveau-eucharistique/
Once again the wheat has been separated from the chaff, and the Good Shepherds from the Bad. We were told that we would have bishop against bishop and so it has transpired. -
Peter K seems totally un-self aware of the role he played in making the Moto Proprio happen.
Along with church militant, return to tradition and others that have created discord and division. While it may have been good for them personally in terms of attention getting and followings, it hasn't done the church any good. This all may have just backfired on them. If they are looking for some imagined perfect church of days gone by, it never existed, still doesn't, and never will. -
JClangfo,
A field hospital's purpose isn't to create more wounds.
Thanked by 1tomjaw -
“ For the second time Francis claims previous popes were wrong...”
No he didn’t, he never said they erred in judgment. You weaken your own credibility by propagating such calumny. Benedict himself said SP would need to be evaluated in the future. He resigned before that happened, so that responsibility fell to Pope Francis. It’s quite clear from the following segment of TC that he is (rightly) blaming the radicals and agitators for the failure of SP, not his two immediate predecessors, one of whom he canonized:
“Regrettably, the pastoral objective of my Predecessors, who had intended ‘to do everything possible to ensure that all those who truly possessed the desire for unity would find it possible to remain in this unity or to rediscover it anew’, [12] has often been seriously disregarded. An opportunity offered by St. John Paul II and, with even greater magnanimity, by Benedict XVI, intended to recover the unity of an ecclesial body with diverse liturgical sensibilities, was exploited to widen the gaps, reinforce the divergences, and encourage disagreements that injure the Church, block her path, and expose her to the peril of division.” -
I have read the Italian bishops were pushing for repeal for some time. Will we ever really know the behind the scenes stuff? Probably not. Vatican intrigue strikes again.Thanked by 1NihilNominis
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"...bishop announces such and such TLM groups will be allowed to continue but with a gradual phase-out, perhaps, such as a full TLM liturgical calendar for the rest of 2021. TLMs only on Sundays and solemnities in 2022 (weekdays must be Novus Ordo, in other words), and total elimination of the TLM starting in 2023. Something like that.
What complicates things is that I believe any responsible bishop will have to concomitantly provide for, expect and mandate that during the TLM phase-out all Novus Ordo parishes must have a phase-in of liturgical music and an ars celebrandi that has greater affinity with the TLM. That's so that people aren't forced to go to happy-clappy, silly Masses when there's no more TLM, and so that Pope Francis' expectation that bad Novus Ordo celebrations improve."
Both of these propositions are complete and utter fantasy, like it or not. Logistically speaking, neither is possible.
[I edited this comment to remove a personal remark.--admin] -
I don't think it's about people saying mean things about the Pope. I think it's about pundits never giving any bishops any kind of break.
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I'd just like to say that Church Militant/St. Michael's Media has been very willing to praise bishops when they do good, as well as point out when they've done wrong.
Knoxville's Bishop Stika has been featured in multiple CM bits, and one cannot say that they have been unwilling to praise as well as criticize the man.
People don't like being criticized.
People like being in power.
People like blaming others for their own problems... and that goes both ways. -
um, this is a bit confusing, Chris… you are alleging that the TLM is a problem. There is NO problem with the TLM. (pun intended). The problem is that the NO wants to throw out a rite that cannot be abrogated or suppressed much less, cancelled. It ain’t going to happen. When the Arian crisis was in full swing, the church went through the same exact problem… guess who became the St. of that century?problem of the TLM is minor problem
This statement shows little understanding of the difference between a ‘church’ (or perhaps, alluding to a rite) and the Faith. The TLM carries internal and intrinsic to it, the Holy Catholic Faith… it resides in the enviable position that other religions wish to imbue into their own, try to simulate, and borrow from, so they can say they have it, except, all other religions are false, so even if they try to graft the true faith onto their religion, it will never take hold. The Faith is pure and its rites last only because their rites are completely grounded in the Faith, and not vise versa.If they are looking for some imagined perfect church of days gone byThanked by 1tomjaw -
The motu proprio doesn't seem aligned with the aims set out in the accompanying letter. First, empowering the bishops: there are a lot of bishops who are supportive of the TLM quite apart from Summorum Pontificum. Traditionis custodes doesn't put them on a pathway to TLM extinction.
Second, TC indicates imposition of liturgical apartheid. What could go wrong? Some on this forum seem to envision TLMers confined to concentration camps, slowing dying off as liturgical rations are reduced to a trickle. But maybe these "camps" will become oases where the tradition-minded can build their own traditional communities, free of NO parish conflicts and beyond the reach of NO ideologues. TC goes further to say that the bishop should entrust a priest
If everybody is doing what they are supposed to under TC, then everybody will be working to build up these communities. It's hard to see how they would ever be closed down.with the pastoral care of these groups of the faithful. This priest should be suited for this responsibility, skilled in the use of the Missale Romanum antecedent to the reform of 1970, possess a knowledge of the Latin language sufficient for a thorough comprehension of the rubrics and liturgical texts, and be animated by a lively pastoral charity and by a sense of ecclesial communion. This priest should have at heart not only the correct celebration of the liturgy, but also the pastoral and spiritual care of the faithfulThanked by 1tomjaw -
If anyone is interested in what Bp. Athansius Schneider said about this situation... the question was put to him this past week, and here is his response (timestamped to start at the correct spot).
He talks about the context of Quo Primum, and the pope's authority to or not to ban the TLM.
"It is a question of justice."
(If you all have not been tuning in to these monthly meetings with Bp. Schneider, I highly recommend you do so.)Thanked by 1tomjaw -
I am led to believe that our Ordinary, wrote the permissions for the TLM to continue in Parish churches, and then handed them out like confetti to his priests, without being asked. The letters were being posted within hours of the outpouring from the Vatican.
We are organising a massive Spiritual Bouquet for him, we will also arrange a collection for the maintenance of our Cathedral. That way we can be sure the money will not go those that are undeserving. -
Our Ordinary not only invited the FSSP to the diocese, and gave them a church, but has himself ordained four priests for the FSSP. He evidently has no qualms about them being in communion with him.
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This priest should be suited for this responsibility, skilled in the use of the Missale Romanum antecedent to the reform of 1970, possess a knowledge of the Latin language sufficient for a thorough comprehension of the rubrics and liturgical texts, and be animated by a lively pastoral charity and by a sense of ecclesial communion. This priest should have at heart not only the correct celebration of the liturgy, but also the pastoral and spiritual care of the faithful
That would make a good priest for the OF, too. -
For all his railing against the Society for being "schismatic", Voris is about as Prot-Trad as they come.
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Tomjaw—not a regular here. Which Bishop? Blessed man.
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Has anyone had a direct result from this on the TLM where they sing/play/pray? Has anyone been moved to a new location or had other things change this Sunday. We always had the readings in the vernacular right before the homily anyway...and our locations have usually been chapels designated by the bishop. So nothing is different so far where I assist, except the blood pressure of some colleagues.Thanked by 1tomjaw
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@CatherineS
No change here our ordinary jumped into action and was handing our permissions sending them out like confetti. We are an unusual diocese as we have a very large number of priests that celebrate or are sympathetic to the TLM.
Thanked by 1ServiamScores -
Our TLM was fuller yesterday than it had been in weeks (though, it's always been quite full, and I assume summer vacations are the main reason for various Mass times thinning out a bit).
I've heard the same elsewhere.
Some people are realizing that if they've always wanted to "try" the TLM, they probably need to do so, now. -
If you haven't read Cdl. Mueller's response to Francis' move:
https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2021/07/19/cardinal-mueller-on-the-new-tlm-restrictions/
Offhand, that's heavy artillery he's throwing. -
Some interesting statistics on the prevalence of the EF at the Pillar today:
https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/how-extraordinary-is-the-extraordinaryThanked by 1tomjaw -
The most interesting part of that, pfreese, was this:The data suggests these are not mostly older priests who retain an attachment to the form of the Mass offered in their youth: A priest would need to be at least 76 to have offered the Extraordinary Form of the Mass before the promulgation of the Ordinary Form in 1970.
Also interesting, in 1970 Paul VI directed that cardinals who reach age 75 are to be asked to resign, and those who do not resign are to relinquish the right to vote for a pope when they reach age 80. -
"All Francis had to do was to leave the old mass alone. If it had produced no fruit, it would have died out. If it produced good fruit — like in the photo above — well, why not allow it, especially in the West, where the faith is in such steep decline?"
In Catholicism, Trads are Not the Problem
Also:
736 x 785 - 118KThanked by 1veromary -
But which 'old mass'? Many here are wanting to abandon the 1962 missal for something pre-1955. How much pre? Do they want to go all the way back to Trent? Or earlier?
We are not tasked with the care of souls. Most of us here are tasked with making music for the Mass, not arbitrating which version of the Mass is best.
To borrow from Stephen Covey - we all have circles of concern and a smaller concentric circle of influence. To be effective, we must work in our circle of influence. Too many of the members on this forum are obviously lost in their circle of concern, which they can do nothing about. -
Or the gymnast bars set up in the sanctuary front of the altar
I could not help noticing that while lowering the proverbial boom on adherents of the Latin Mass, in his letter the Pope briefly mentioned horrific abuses in the new one (cannot recall his exact words), but nary a boom was similarly lowered.
Just wonderedThanked by 1tomjaw -
Perhaps one could ask that the Extraordinary Form be as rare as Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion?
On the subject of horrific abuses, perhaps one could ask bishops and His Holiness to show that they are acting in good faith (i.e., not persecuting a group of Catholics) by cleaning up some of the practices which are so common in the Missal of Paul VI?Thanked by 1tomjaw -
Well....as for unity, how much unity has this decree caused on this forum?
Will it be different in the greater church?
There is simply no doubt that this decree will cause resentment, anger, division and disagreements.
It is already happening. -
"But everything doesn't have to halt immediately, according to TC. Bishops can still permit TLMs in designated places, subject to TC's conditions. The eventual phase-out I'm referring to is the future elimination of those groups and personal parishes that a bishop will temporarily allow to continue celebrating the TLM in his diocese starting this weekend."
Honestly, what would be the point of attending a mass that would be abolished a year from now??
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Reports coming into me show an increased interest in the TLM, and we have seen an increased attendance. All advertising is good advertising! Persecution has always strengthened the Faith of the persecuted. We now know that what was Sacred for 1500 years is still Sacred, so we know that we are in communion with the Church when we attend the TLM. Persecution will be akin to the tree mentioned in John 15:2Honestly, what would be the point of attending a Mass that would be abolished a year from now??Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
The spirit of Vatican II generation has no more than 10 years left, their nest is empty, their fig tree produces no fruit, their vineyard produces not, their branches are barren... This attempt to trample the new growth, will just turn the soil so the harvest will be greater. They will fail just like the impious High Priest of the Temple when they condemned the Christ.
We have seen the younger generation of bishops write that they have no problem with their TLM communities, and have given them permission to continue. They see no unhealthy rejection of whatever in Vatican II these communities are supposed to reject. We have had 40 years in the wilderness, we have tasted the freedom over the last decade, what is 10 years? We are young, we are growing, if we hold true to the Faith of our Fathers we will taste freedom once again. We have been told that a Faithful Remnant will prevail.
Also just like with the 1971 Indult we have non-Catholics on our side... Le Figaro, Michel Onfray: "The Latin Mass, a Liturgical Patrimony" -
From Cardinal Zen:It came as a bitter surprise to me personally that the “thorough” consultation did not reach me, a cardinal and former member of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. Furthermore, during the years 2007-9, I was bishop of Hong Kong, and therefore responsible for the implementation of “Summorum Pontificum”, and until now, a well-known supporter of the group.
Not having known either the questionnaire or the responses to the questionnaire, I cannot judge, but only suspect that there was much misunderstanding (or perhaps even manipulation) in the process.The problem is not “which rite do people prefer?”, but it is “why don’t they go to Mass anymore?” Some surveys show that half of the Christian population in Europe no longer believes in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, no longer believes in eternal life! Certainly, we do not blame the liturgical reform; but we just want to say that the problem is much deeper, we cannot evade the question: “Has not the formation of faith been lacking?” “Has not the great work of the Council been wasted?” Isn’t the root of evil that attitude of believing that everything can now be changed? Is it not that attitude of believing that this Council cancels out all previous ones, and that the Council of Trent is like the dirt accumulated on the fresco of the Sistine Chapel (as a “liturgist” in our diocese put it)?The Document obviously sees not only disturbances in the execution of Summorum Pontificum, but considers the very existence of a parallel rite to be an evil. Don’t paragraphs § 5 and § 6 of Art 3, Art 4 and 5 clearly wish for the death of the groups? But, even with that, can’t the anti-Ratzinger gentlemen of the Vatican patiently wait for the Tridentine Mass to die along with Benedict XVI, instead of humiliating the venerable Pope Emeritus in this way? -
After France's leading popular intellectual Michel Onfray an Atheist, and Cardinal Marx of Munich, now George Weigel is also on our side Pope Francis is a genius to have brought such a diverse group of people together. end purple text?
Having read what Michel Onfray has written, I am encouraging people to pray he is given the gift of Faith. -
Tom,
If Atheists and Secularists and those involved in hero worship and self-aggrandisement can see the problem(s) with TC, perhaps His Holiness is next?Thanked by 1tomjaw
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