It happened: Traditionis custodes (TLM crackdown) (Note: discussion is on hiatus.)
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 684
    I was reading a couple of articles on The National Catholic Register. I'm glad to see that some church leaders are focusing on the Popes comments about the distortions in the NO mass.

    https://www.ncregister.com/news/traditionis-custodes-and-the-reform-of-the-reform
    Thanked by 4amindthatsuits a_f_hawkins tomjaw Nathan_the_Organist
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    As a result, a new face of “unity” was obtained, which is not rooted in the organic totality of the traditional ritual – this is practically non-existent in the reformed liturgy – but which is based on trust and obedience to the ecclesiastical authority (especially the Pope) and the post-conciliar liturgical order introduced by it. ... Opposition does not simply arise from disobedience, ... but from a different understanding of the fundamental principle of unity itself. And the fact that there has been a radical change in this area and the controversy it sparked was not caused by “traditionalists,” but by the post-conciliar reform itself. ...

    Traditionis Custodes consciously operates within the strictly narrowed framework of the above-mentioned new face of “unity,” which it elevates to the rank of absolute, central value. The projects of the “post-conciliar” Church and liturgy, precisely because of their foundation in acts of power, are understood here as a reality without alternative – ultimately (“in due time”, as Francis puts it in his letter to the bishops), one who will not accept them ... has no right to be in the Church and call himself Catholic – even if he or she was baptized, believes in all dogmas, leads a full prayer life and sacramental life, tries to do works of mercy and live the gospel.

    After a few days of thinking about TC, an illustration appeared in my mind.

    The Barque of Peter was afloat on the ocean of earth, and on the deck was assembled the entire body of TLM goers world-wide celebrating the Mass of the Ages. The altar in its full regalia was set, and a priest was on one knee, right arm on the altar in the middle of the consecration.

    A ladder was set at the starboard side, and on the siderail was inscribed, Traditionis Custodes. The ladder reached down into a lifeboat. At the bottom of the ladder was PF climbing into the lifeboat. The boat bore the inscription, Novus Ordo 2021. There were many other lifeboats floating around in the water around the Barque; Each had a designation such as, NO 1970, NO 1984, NO 1988, NO 2000, etc. All the other lifeboats were empty and floating listlessly upon the waves.

    Upon looking up from the surface of the ocean, one could see that various planks were removed from the side of the Barque, and these had been used for constructing the name bearing planks in the lifeboats below.

    PF was looking at his feet as he was descending into the boat, his right hand grasping the siderail just before letting go.

    (I began drawing this illustration while I was out west last week, but forget to bring it home.)
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Arthur Connick
    Posts: 494
    With regard to Traditionis Custodes Was Never Merely About the Liturgy (Church Life Journal, by Shaun Blanchard) referenced by Kenneth: it is ...OK. Just OK.

    Blanchard applies helpful categories to the reactions to Traditionis custodes ("Tc"). But rather than relying on what the article says others have said, readers should seek out the sources.

    A substantial problem with the article is that it tries to fit Tc into Blanchard's own theory of the development of papal authority over the last 150 years, namely:
    [C]ontrolling or attempting to control the reception, interpretation, and implementation ecumenical councils is a pivotal way (perhaps the pivotal way) in which the early modern and modern papacy has asserted its supremacy within the Catholic Church.
    In fact, Tc is more consistent with other theories of authority in the post-VII Church. See, for example, Dekert's article referenced above which locates the drive to concentrate power in the need to prop up VII due to its weak Traditional foundation.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    Arthur Connick:

    On this point -- But rather than relying on what the article says others have said, readers should seek out the sources -- that depends entirely on how much time one has. His categories and examples are, as you say, helpful, and those who have time can read the ones that interest and see where those roads lead.

    As for the second, your thumbnail of Dekert's argument leads me to think Blanchard has a firmer footing in history. I just glanced at the article right now and will look at it in more detail.

    For those who are interested, Dekert's article can be found here:

    https://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2021/08/traditionis-custodes-or-competing.html#.YQ3iDejYr9Z
    Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins
  • Ken of Sarum
    Posts: 406
    Another FYI - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xluyxZWN1yY&t=252s

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj0UHlpbcsA&t=347s
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    Dekert draws our attention to ritual. Our liturgies do not work just in the verbal way of intellectual discourse. Richard Dawkins very certainly does not believe in God, but he has been known to attend Anglican Evensong, because he gets ¿satisfaction/pleasure? from the cultural rituals in which he was brought up.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    From the article posted by Arthur

    When the philosopher Jean Guitton asked Pope Paul why he did not grant the use of the preconciliar Mass to SSPX founder Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and his followers, the pope replied:

    Never. This Mass . . . becomes the symbol of the condemnation of the council. I will not accept, under any circumstances, the condemnation of the council through a symbol. Should this exception to the liturgy of Vatican II have its way, the entire council would be shaken. And, as a consequence, the apostolic authority of the council would be shaken.[10]

    Just as I highlighted Francis’s evocation of the adage cum Petro et sub Petro, I think the key to understanding Pope Paul’s statement here lies in his concern that “apostolic authority” not be “shaken.” Lefebvre’s resistance was a direct challenge to the pope, and Paul VI feared that the pre-conciliar Mass had become or would become a shibboleth for the rejection not just of the authority of Vatican II, but that of the popes who sanctioned it.


    This statement exposes the fulcrum upon which teeters the two forces of pre and post conciliar theology. That fulcrum is the famed lex orandi lex credendi lex vivendi.

    https://www.crisismagazine.com/2018/lex-orandi-lex-credendi-lex-vivendi.

    What is revealed by TC is a blatant admission of the conciliar church that it cannot claim to have carried forth “the symbol” into its New Rite. It mistakenly thought that the Preconciliar Mass (Mass of the Ages) is merely a symbol that was moveable by the will of man, even if he was Pope. (Cum Petro et sub Petro) It demonstrates that the New Rite struggles to embody and maintain the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith whilst the Mass of the Ages IS the Faith, inseparable from that “symbol” that cannot be moved or shaken or claimed nor stolen by any other power in heaven or on earth.

    Dismas or Gestas?

    The only way to “steal paradise” is to look into the eyes of Christ, repent of sin and error, and then join him this very day in His kingdom.

    Thanked by 2tomjaw sdtalley3
  • Arthur Connick
    Posts: 494
    Archbishop Cordileone (San Francisco) issued a statement on August 5 which affirms his support for Pope Francis and the Holy Father's concerns. He also affirms that the celebration of the Traditional Latin Mass will continue in the Archdiocese, including at the Cathedral.

    In addition:
    Since Pope Francis issued Traditionis custodes, I have been grieved by certain disrespectful responses; some have even included slanderous attacks on the Pontiff. I support Pope Francis, and his concern that those who are drawn to more traditional forms of Catholic worship also affirm the validity of the Novus Ordo form of the Mass and, indeed, of the Second Vatican Council itself. As the visible head of the Church, the Pope has a global vision of Church life and can perceive things that we cannot from our more local perspective.
    Statement of Archbishop Salvatore J. Cordileone Regarding the Celebration of the Traditional Latin Mass in St. Mary’s Cathedral and the Archdiocese of San Francisco
    Thanked by 2a_f_hawkins ghmus7
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,464
    I just discovered another thread:

    Of The man who stole Francis' pachmama statues and threw them into the Tiber, we learn:

    "He identifies as a Traditionalist Catholic and exclusively attends the Tridentine Mass"

    Hmmmmmmmm.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    I deleted an off-topic comment.

    Folks, I think it would not hurt if we set this topic aside for a while, so I am closing this thread.

    DEAR READERS,

    IF you are interested in posting about Traditionis Custodes, can you please hold your comments for now? Hundreds of comments were made on this discussion thread and on two similar threads, and many relevant things were said. But things have reached the point where new comments are more often digressions than on-topic analysis.

    Thanks to all who participated, and kindly pardon any inconvenience while the forum becomes a TC-free zone for a while.

    --admin
    Thanked by 8MarkB Schönbergian bhcordova CHGiffen Don9of11 Liam Chrism tomjaw
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