It happened: Traditionis custodes (TLM crackdown) (Note: discussion is on hiatus.)
-
“ Furthermore, during the years 2007-9, I was bishop of Hong Kong.”
I my understanding, the survey went out to diocesan bishops. Since the Cardinal hadn’t led a diocese in 11 years when it was sent out, that may explain why he didn’t get it. And considering his many cart Blanche criticisms of the Vatican in recent years and his apparent lack of friends there, it’s conceivable they weren’t that willing to make an exception for him. -
A tongue-in-cheek criticism of Summorum Pontificum, resembling recent criticisms of Traditionis Custodes that have focused on the motu proprio's tone, alleged harshness and heavy-handedness:Art 1. The Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI is the ordinary expression of the lex orandi (rule of prayer) of the Catholic Church of the Latin rite. The Roman Missal promulgated by Saint Pius V and revised by Blessed John XXIII is nonetheless to be considered an extraordinary expression of the same lex orandi of the Church and duly honoured for its venerable and ancient usage. These two expressions of the Church’s lex orandi will in no way lead to a division in the Church’s lex credendi (rule of faith); for they are two usages of the one Roman rite.
Here we see Benedict taking it upon himself to declare, against tradition and without precedent, that the Roman Rite has two liturgical forms, a situation that has never existed before. The presumptuousness exhibited by him in attempting to predict a future of no division in the Church betrays the mind of a man who thinks he knows everything.Art. 2. In Masses celebrated without a congregation, any Catholic priest of the Latin rite, whether secular or regular, may use either the Roman Missal published in 1962 by Blessed Pope John XXIII or the Roman Missal promulgated in 1970 by Pope Paul VI, and may do so on any day, with the exception of the Easter Triduum. For such a celebration with either Missal, the priest needs no permission from the Apostolic See or from his own Ordinary.
Here the pope undermines the bishop's authority over the liturgy in his own diocese, declaring that priests do not need any permission from their bishop to celebrate the Extraordinary Form. This authoritarian move by Benedict to undermine bishops in order to promote expanded use of his favored form of the liturgy is an exercise of raw, dictatorial, autocratic power, utterly lacking in collegiality.
You get my point. Many people see only what they want to see.Thanked by 1Rivegauche610 -
"his apparent lack of friends"
People don't like him, therefore his opinion on a matter that is supposedly considered to have been "thoroughly" researched and considered doesn't matter? He's a cardinal.
And his being the one to implement of SP is absolutely relevant, because it would mean HE is the one who knew what it was like "before," and if the "after" was or was not better. -
“ People don't like him”
As others have said trads have done a great job of shooting themselves in the foot. IMHO too many think that being right is all that matters, and then blame their detractors when they get annoyed with their bad behavior and stop listening to them. Can’t win the game if you don’t play. -
The idea that being likeable is superior to being correct, and therefore one doesn't need to be wholly correct when they make claims is preposterous.
I understand needing to be charitable... but it's not charitable to tell half-truths or to avoid consulting those who will correct you when you are wrong. -
Here we see Benedict taking it upon himself to declare, against tradition and without precedent, that the Roman Rite has two liturgical forms, a situation that has never existed before. The presumptuousness exhibited by him in attempting to predict a future of no division in the Church betrays the mind of a man who thinks he knows everything.
Rubbish, The Sarum Use is a modified form of the Roman Rite, and is still authorised for use today. Other versions of the Roman or Latin Rite, could also be cited.
Anyway I thought you said we should not say that the pope was wrong? Or did you think Benedict was not Pope? -
This authoritarian move by Benedict to undermine bishops in order to promote expanded use of his favored form of the liturgy is an exercise of raw, dictatorial, autocratic power, utterly lacking in collegiality.
The provisions of SP were needed because Bishops were too often ungenerous with allowing the use of the traditional liturgy. Situations where the Pope stepped in to apply a remedy to local abuses of authority have occurred throughout the history of the Church. The Catholic Encyclopedia has a good article on exemption here.Thanked by 1tomjaw -
“The idea that being likeable is superior to being correct, and therefore one doesn't need to be wholly correct when they make claims is preposterous.”
No one is suggesting that — being correct and likability aren’t mutually exclusive concepts. The Church is filled with humans like any other institution, which means you need a certain degree of likability to get anywhere. That’s just how the real world works. -
Yes, Mark, it's a fun game to compare expanding allowance for something beautiful and true to avoid spiritual abuse guised as competent authority with something restrictive and newly allowing for further spiritual abuse of those people who had finally been allowed the spiritual peace to worship using a licit, non-abrogated Catholic rite...
What a fun exercise in humility... or purposeful humiliation.
(Also, you probably should have had all of your text in purple.)Thanked by 1tomjaw -
I wonder if any of you noticed the purple in Mark's post?
Ah! forestalled! -
Couple of things to keep in mind... one is from tradition, the other from scripture.Code of Canon Law
Chapter V: DISPENSATIONS
Canon 85 A dispensation, that is, the relaxation of a merely ecclesiastical law in a particular case, can be granted, within the limits of their competence, by those who have executive power, and by those who either explicitly or implicitly have the power of dispensing, whether by virtue of the law itself or by lawful delegation.“And now, therefore, I say to you: Refrain from these men and let them alone. For if this council or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
But if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it, lest perhaps you be found even to fight against God. And they consented to him.”
Act 5:38-39
The first one has already been juridically invoked by a bishop.Thanked by 1ServiamScores -
Restrictive does not equal bad. Restrictions are sometimes good.
Requiring that the whole Roman Church converge upon the Novus Ordo Mass is not spiritual abuse because Vatican II decreed that the liturgy should be reformed. Did Vatican II decree that God's people be abused by reforming the liturgy? Nonsense.
"Non-abrogated" was only by way of originally few exceptions that were subsequently expanded by future popes. Abrogation of the old Missal was the intent behind issuing a revised Missal. Abrogation should be the goal in the post-conciliar Church, unless the Church sees fit to establish a distinct use of the 1962 Missal akin to what it has done for the Anglican Use.
If bishops and pastors do what they should be doing in celebrating Mass, spiritual peace, authentic worship in Catholic faith, liturgical tradition, beautiful and reverent music should all be found in a Novus Ordo Mass. Sad to say, that is seldom the case.Thanked by 1hilluminar -
Which goes to illustrate that what is cast out in black and white will in reality be required to stand the test of time, the faithful and ultimately God himself who will have the definitive judgement.
It’s only been five days and already this is being walked back.
As per the scriptural reference I posted above, we have left VII alone... on its own for 50+ years... and it seems to be coming to naught. We appreciate your youth and enthusiasm for our cause of Sacred music, but we have already done (some of us for 50 years) everything you aspire to do... and OUR efforts have come to naught. -
What appears to be shaking out is that most bishops in the U.S. are granting initial, provisional status-quo permission, which means hardly anything is changing right now. After 2-3 months, bishops should have had enough time to weigh and decide how to implement TC in their dioceses. 1-3 months from now will be a more decisive and informative period, IMO.
-
After 2-3 months, bishops should have had enough time to weigh and decide how to implement TC in their dioceses. 1-3 months from now will be a more decisive and informative period, IMO.
Possibly. Very likely, there won't be any significant changes in many places even then (barring any further mayhem). This whole situation was planned well in advance with most of those Bishops who wanted to get rid of the traditional liturgy/Sacramental rites having already made their move. Hence, why I think there was no vacatio legis.
EDIT: Also, do I detect a hint of wishful thinking on your part MarkB? -
tomjaw writes:
The Sarum Use is a modified form of the Roman Rite, and is still authorised for use today.
Can you explain this? Is Sarum used anywhere? Didn't the English bishops give it up when the hierarchy was re-established?
It was used for Vespers on Candlemas 2020 in Philadelphia. No, it was never given up.Thanked by 1tomjaw -
@chonak,
I have a letter from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith,
"this Dicastery confirms that the Use of Sarum, whilst no longer in regular use, has never been formerly abrogated.
[...]
any celebration of the liturgy according to the Use of Sarum is to be carried out under the responsibility and supervision of the Ordinary. [...] signed by +Guido Pozzo"
A handful of people in England have celebrated Mass and the Office using the Sarum books. A couple of years ago we arranged a print run of Altar Missals. We have clergy, choir and venues available, for regular celebrations.
While we have rumours about the Bishops of England and Wales, discussing the Sarum Use, correspondence about this in the archives is nowhere to be found. -
Just to add to the chat:
This idea of there has to be "One Rite" - this is the refrain of the whiny Italians - this is a total non sequitir. Doesen't eveyone know that there has been for centuries MANY diverse liturgies of the Catholic liturgy? Offhand, I am thinking of Byzantine, Melkite, Syro- Malabar etc. THERE ARE ALREADY 24 Catholic liturgies accepted by Rome.
I just do not get this... -
Vespers is quite difficult from a mass, or any other celebration of the sacraments for that matter.
The singers were skilled!
I assume you meant "different" rather than "difficult" though. Regardless, it was a public celebration with the participation of numerous clergy according to the Sarum Use. If you want, you can watch it here.
There were plans (which got put on the back burner due to the events of COVID) to offer a Solemn High Mass according to Sarum as well. Hopefully, it will still happen. -
This idea of there has to be "One Rite" - this is the refrain of the whiny Italians - this is a total non sequitir. Doesen't eveyone know that there has been for centuries MANY diverse liturgies of the Catholic liturgy?
From the Introduction to Sacrosanctum Concilium:
"Lastly, in faithful obedience to tradition, the sacred Council declares that holy Mother Church holds all lawfully acknowledged rites to be of equal right and dignity; that she wishes to preserve them in the future and to foster them in every way."
Full document here. -
What appears to be shaking out is that most bishops in the U.S. are granting initial, provisional status-quo permission, which means hardly anything is changing right now.
And yet this is spun as BISHOPS JOIN RESISTANCE, REJECT FRANCIS - and with this sort of politicization, the freedom of good people to act is curtailed.
-
One rite is surely an idea that has never caught on in 'Italy'. Not only has Milan never succumbed to the Roman Use, but there ¿were/are? Greek and Albanian speaking areas in the south with their own rites.Thanked by 1stulte
-
I've not even once seen this conveyed as such... even though I follow mostly Traditionally-minded Catholic pages.BISHOPS JOIN RESISTANCE, REJECT FRANCIS
...unless you're talking about German bishops re:non-sacramental "unions," because even Liberal publications have said that... -
>> Not only has Milan never succumbed to the Roman Use
I don't mean to get off topic, and apologies if I'm missing something. Milan has apparently had 41 bishops/archbishops who were canonized, including Sts Ambrose, Charles Borromeo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Archdiocese_of_Milan#Genoa_period
Thanked by 1tomjaw -
Ok dumb question here but what’s the difference between a use, a form, and a rite?
It seems to me that SP said the EF and OF were alternate forms of the same rite.
But then aren’t the Mozarabic and Ambrosian considered « rites »? And aren’t they part of the Latin Church? And Sarum is a « use »?
It sounds a bit like this: the Latin Church has 3 rites (Roman, Ambrosian, and Mozarabic) in continuous use, one of which exists in two forms. And then there’s the Sarum use used only sporadically. It’s all very confusing and I think the notion of one rite in two forms is a bit silly especially when adding the breviaries to the mix, where the pre-conciliar version is even more radically divergent from the LOTH than the Masses are from each other.
I think there should be one form only, the newer one, and let’s get cracking on making it as beautiful as it can be and is in many places.Thanked by 1CatherineS -
Ora,
Thank you for your establishing that there is some confusing vocabulary being used.
I, like you, hope to see a sensible explanation of the differences from someone who knows.
On the other hand, a great many of those who celebrate the Missal of Paul VI think of what you call "beautiful", exactly what TC intends to stamp out. "Beautifying" the MoPVI would be exactly the opposite of what they want to do. -
"Beautifying" the MoPVI would be exactly the opposite of what they want to do.
I’m not sure it’s a conspiracy or concerted attempt to uglify. I rather think it’s just a lackadaisical attitude, the same thing that gave us speed-read mumbled Low Masses in the pre-conciliar era.
I’ve been to a lot of very quiet and reflective OF early-morning Masses that in spite of their lack of music or ornamentation were quite profound. And then there’s our Sunday sung Gregorian chant Mass at our abbey, OF as well, that is done with care, reverence and beauty. It boils down to attitude… -
Ora,
If I proposed to Pope Francis (and those who have helped him craft this ban on the TLM) that Gregorian Chant, Organ, Latin, and similar things should be normal occurrences in the MoPVI, I think I can say with a high degree of certainty that I would be told that those things belong in to a former era. If I suggested the re-installation and the mandatory use of altar rails, these, too, would be deprecated. If I said that I wanted boys and men only to serve at the altar, or that I wanted a categorical end to concelebration, I would be told that these were approved changes, and therefore I should just get used to not being rigid. -
“ If I proposed to Pope Francis (and those who have helped him craft this ban on the TLM) that Gregorian Chant, Organ, Latin, and similar things should be normal occurrences in the MoPVI, I think I can say with a high degree of certainty that I would be told that those things belong in to a former era.”
I challenge you to find ANY recorded mass at St. Peter’s celebrated by the Holy Father in the last two years and find even one of those three things missing.Thanked by 1MarkB -
I think there should be one form only, the newer one, and let’s get cracking on making it as beautiful as it can be and is in many places.
Trying to improve matters is noble, but restricting the Roman Church to one liturgical form is not a Catholic ideal. Even the Novus Ordo technically isn't one form. It's at least 4 forms rolled into 1 considering there are 4 different Eucharistic prayers.Thanked by 1tomjaw -
>> I think there should be one form only, the newer one
With respect to personal opinion
"Catholic" means "including a wide variety of things; all-embracing".
Benedict XVI referred to this variety. Of course, the deposit of faith being safeguarded, why should there be one form only? -
Trying to improve matters is noble, but restricting the Roman Church to one liturgical form is not a Catholic ideal.
We would still of course have the Mozarabic and Ambrosian Rites (which as I understand it underwent its own Vatican II revision). And the Dominican for that matter. And considerable variety in how to celebrate the Mass of Paul VI... reverently. Not to mention the rites of the 22 other sui juris Churches in communion with Rome.
And the EF will continue in many monastic communities and orders: Barroux. Fontgombault, Clear Creek, Randol, FSSP, ICK, Nursia, etc. etc. in spite of my musings.
Still sounds pretty Catholic to me.Thanked by 1tomjaw -
I appreciate, Ora, that you identify your ideas as musings. Truly, much from both sides on this thread can be boiled down to that. It is unrealistic to expect/think that the EF will ever cease to exist, and it is likewise unrealistic to think/expect that the reformed Mass will ever cease to exist. Documents and ideals and whatnot aside, I think, pragmatically, that's the situation we face.Thanked by 1tomjaw
-
Priests and bishops beseech Francis...
This (I hope I didn't miss it already being shared) just expresses so much, so well.
"A Cry From the Heart About ‘Traditionis Custodes’ and the Latin Mass" by Msgr PopePope Francis has seldom addressed any other group this harshly. To others such as unbelievers, dissenters and wayward politicians there is to be mercy, understanding and tolerance. He speaks of “going to the margins” and of compassion for the poor and morally lost. But to those attached to the Latin Mass comes this strong rebuke, with almost no room to maneuver in the Church they love. It is very shocking and saddening to me as a pastor of souls that such vitriol be directed at the flock I have long cared for.Thanked by 1tomjaw -
I think the proper understanding hinges on realizing that Vatican II decreed "revision" of the liturgy, not the "addition" of a new liturgical form alongside the 1962 Missal.
The Missal of 1962 will never cease to exist, and its celebration will likely exist as long as the SSPX exists, but Pope Francis has reinstated and reinforced a trajectory, begun at Vatican II but interrupted and delayed by subsequent popes, that is intended to lead to the 1962 Missal no longer being authorized for use in the Roman Church. And he did so because Vatican II decreed "revision" not "addition".
The false dichotomy of "traditional" versus "Novus Ordo" Catholics should cease. There are only Catholics, and the Novus Ordo is a legitimate extension and evolution of Catholic tradition. Catholics who celebrate the Novus Ordo Mass are participating in a renewed, revised, and reformed Catholic liturgical tradition.Thanked by 1Rivegauche610 -
In addition to the SSPX, there is also the 1971 indult granted by Pope Paul VI to the English and Welsh bishops to authorize celebrations of the traditional Latin Mass, including honoring the request of deceased persons for the traditional Requiem Mass at funerals.
There are also the various orders such as FSSP, ICKSP, the Cantians, and certain monasteries, and, in Brazil, the Apostolic Administration of St. John Marie Vianney (a quasi-diocese), communities whose charism includes the celebration of the old rite. -
An interesting take by Larry Chapp:What is lacking is a piercing pastoral analysis of what has brought us to this point in the first place. Why is it that so many Catholics of deep faith have grown weary of the “business as usual” Catholicism of our parishes and have felt the need to flee to an older iteration of the faith, in both liturgy and in theology [...]? [...]
Ours is a Church that has failed to ask the right questions and has therefore failed to flip the script of our culture’s lies and deceptions. We asked for bread. We got stones. And thus did some in the sheepfold seek bread elsewhere in the alternative Catholic communities made possible by Summorum Pontificum. And if some have fled to such havens with a goodly amount of undifferentiated bitterness it should be understood not as the bitterness of hatred, but rather as the bitterness of the desperate. [...]
What all of this points to is that the debates and controversies that we see now all around us are not going to go away until we start taking seriously the deep spiritual crisis that is at the core of every single one of them. And we are not going to get anywhere so long as we persist in seeking bureaucratic or “structural” solutions to what are at root deeply spiritual problems. [...]
There is only one path forward and it is my constant refrain: Vatican II’s universal call to holiness and the christocentric theological anthropology that animates it. [...]
“business as usual” Christianity is dead and that only a radical transformation of the Church into a cruciform, Christological icon of the descent into Hell will do.
https://gaudiumetspes22.com/2021/07/19/the-hermeneutics-of-the-abyss-some-thoughts-on-traditionis-custodes/ -
I really, really hate this use of 'The Latin Mass' to mean 'using the 1962 Missal', even as shorthand it is sloppy. Much more importantly it leads to an identification in the minds of PIPs of 1962 with any use of Latin, and hence with chant, which as GIRM makes abundantly clear is THE recommended music of the Roman Missal.
This discussion has been closed.
All Discussions Welcome to the MusicaSacra Forum!
To participate in the discussions on Catholic church music, sign in or register as a forum member, The forum is a project of the Church Music Association of America.
Categories
- All Discussions21,106
- General Music Discussion7,594
- Job Openings1,303
- Management of Music Programs833
- Choral Matters519
- Church Documents and Rubrics504
- CMAA Notes291
- Events651
- For Newcomers: Read First23
- Sacred Polyphony528
- Hymnody821
- Gregorian Chant: General2,582
- ↳ Graduale Romanum and Liber Usualis354
- ↳ Graduale Simplex55
- ↳ Semiology57
- Vernacular Plainsong671
- Anglican Use and Anglican Chant66
- Organ, Other Instruments and Repertoire414
- New Composition/Works in Progress1,208
- Recordings222
- Music for Hispanic Ministry151
- Music Education: Children205
- Music Education: General214
- News Items242
- Positions Wanted58
- General Discussion: Catholicism723
- Amusements170
- General Discussion1,000
- Opinions113