Joyful Catholics
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I see a tension in the issue, which I think many rational thinkers understand.

    On the one hand, there are many who have faced the choice between being prisoners of disastrous marriages of abuse, abandonment, adultery, and all manner of other victimizing sins. There are also those who, due to improper catechesis on the church's teachings, now find themselves in a marital relation seen by the church as adulterous. Are they to leave their second spouses now? Which of the married commentators here would seriously leave theirs for the sake of a rule they don't understand? There is a burning need for mercy in many such cases of good, yet conflicted, Catholics. I'm reminded of Our Lord's condemnation of those who "tie up burdens too heavy for people to carry," and comforted us with the offer of his easy yoke and light burden.

    On the other hand, Christ's teaching is clear, and is more strict than that even of Moses, whose law He fulfilled. We can argue about the meaning of "...except for unfaithfulness," but He is still clear about the indissolubility of marriage. And there are so many who abuse the civil anti-sacrament of divorce, even among the faithful. And what mercy is shown, through the acceptance of serial marriage, to those who daily make terrible sacrifice to preserve difficult marriages?

    There is a real and dire conflict here, between mercy and orthodoxy. I think that rational and concerned thinkers want both to prevail somehow, even if the means is presently hidden from us.

    However, I believe there are MANY, including some commenters here, who have no interest in mercy, and only a zeal for orthodoxy as a masked form of self-righteousness. They are not interested in struggling in the same discussion as the rest of the church.
  • I never said it will be "new teaching."

    It might well be new discipline.

    I suppose I'm not making myself sufficiently clear, and in the interest of being polite I'm engaging in sophistry rather than just coming out with it.

    I'm sick and tired of people questioning the Pope on what he does and says. I'm especially sick and tired of people with no theology background questioning the Pope and other Cardinals on what they do and say, as though they have any standing to critique it.

    Come to your own conclusions. And if you don't like what the Pope is doing, or you don't like whatever "direction the Church is heading" in, I suggest you leave it.

    Call to Action always needs new members. Maybe they'll establish a "conservative wing."

    People should set their expectations properly. Processes and procedures can be changed; the *teaching* of indissolubility cannot be changed: it's a dogma. It is recognized by Pope Francis and by everyone from Cdl. Burke to Cdl. Kasper. Whatever the Pope adopts in the wake of the synod process, no one should expect that it will be new teaching.


    Exactly. So what is all this fuss about? People calling the Pope a heretic because he might change a discipline?
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Yeah, what Gavin just said.

    I think my brain is a bit fried. Maybe it's this flu I'm fighting off.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,965
    Rock and Rye, PGA along with hot lemonade and honey. You will either feel better, or not care. ;-)

    I have given up trying to understand the annulment process. I have known folks who got them and I wondered why, since the grounds seemed shaky. It is also well known that some tribunals are much more lenient than others. Go figure!

    The Orthodox have provisions for second marriages. There is no crowning ceremony, and it is viewed as a consideration of human weakness like the exception of Moses. Some don't consider it sacramental, others do. There is no perfect world, and there are no perfect people in it.
    Thanked by 2PaixGioiaAmor Gavin
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Again, I never saw where Christ talked about arguing cases with Canon lawyers and a defender of the bond, and having an ecclesiastical court determine whether an annulment could be granted.

    A priest I know when in seminary asked this question of a professor: If the Church can claim that a valid sacramental marriage never took place, what about ordination or any other sacrament? The answer was: We don't go there.
    Thanked by 3francis CHGiffen Gavin
  • Pretty much.

    Hell, I'll do you one better: a bishop once told me, regarding things like this, "They are OUR rules! We'll follow them, break them, or change them as we see fit!"

    Don't bother asking for the name; he's a currently sitting diocesan bishop, and THAT'S where we're not going.

    This is such a very HUMAN institution. We have to not forget that.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,196
    We don't go there.
    To the contrary: canon law includes provisions for an analogous process regarding ordinations.

    "They are OUR rules! We'll follow them, break them, or change them as we see fit!"
    Yes, this is not a surprise: even though the law places rather light restraints on bishops, some of them can't be bothered to observe them correctly.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Well that makes perfect sense. One can approach ordination with the same types of impediments that one approached marriage.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Okay, we all know where this is headed, and since, apparently one has to be a bishop or a
    cardinal to be able to offer an opinion on this matter, and since one is accused of schism, self-righteousness or Call to Action activism if one still believes in the indissolubility of marriage, I will close for now by simply saying that I agree with Cardinal Mueller, that rigid, intolerant, unmerciful head of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, that the current proposal by the German bishops is "heretical" (his words, not mine).

    So, since only cardinals and bishops can express theological opinions, I will leave this discussion by saying I make his words my own, and whatever names you choose to call him, you can call me, too. : )
    Thanked by 2Salieri TCJ
  • Having any background in the formal study of theology would make your opinion easier to take seriously, including an opinion that simply says "I agree with _____."
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,055
    "A priest I know when in seminary asked this question of a professor: If the Church can claim that a valid sacramental marriage never took place, what about ordination or any other sacrament? The answer was: We don't go there."

    Ah, this isn't so difficult in the Roman tradition, where matrimony is, uniquely, co-ministered by the couple (unlike in the Eastern tradition, where the priest is the minister). The fact that there are co-ministers means that subjective factors are more in play in this sacrament than for others. The Donatist heresy prompted a thorough minimization of subjective factors for other sacraments; they exist, but not in a way to make validity nearly as much of an issue as in matrimony.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    P.S. Darling PGA, I was a theology major at Christendom College.

    Pax vobiscum!
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    There are indeed some finer points of theology, that the lay mind (as in one who is not a schooled theologian who knows the Church Fathers, the Scholastics, and contemporary thought equally well) can't know. But there are other things that are so blatantly obvious (or should be, or would have been prior to the 'lets question everything' era of the 60's) that anyone can give an objective judgment on.

    To receive Holy Communion, one must be in the state of grace.
    When one commits mortal sin one is not in the state of grace.
    When a Catholic who is validly married civilly divorces and attempts marriage with another person, or lives with that person in a sexual relationship, that person has committed (objectively) a mortal sin, and persists in that sin, which is why the Church has always called it "living in sin".
    That person being (objectively) in mortal sin should refrain from receiving Holy Communion until their situation is regularized.
    If they do receive Communion in a state of mortal sin they commit Sacrilege.
    To say that a person who is in this situation (public sin) can receive Sacramental Communion is, at least, a grave error. No you don't need a degree in theology to understand this, you need a modicum of Catholicity.

    PGA, your premise is false: otherwise, if, objectively, adultery and fornication, an in this instance, by extension, Sacrilegious Communion, are not sins, then neither is, objectively, stealing, murder, or any other of the sins against the Ten Commandments. The whole edifice crumbles.

    You don't need to have a degree in theology to know this, anymore than you need a degree in medicine to know that flu is an illness. At the very least, I know that I don't need a degree in medicine to agree with the opinion of the CDC that the flu is a contagious air-borne disease, any more than I need a degree in theology to agree with Cardinal Mueller, or a degree in philosophy to agree with Dr. Kwasniewski, or a degree in music (which, by the way, I do NOT have) to agree with Dr. Mahrt.
    Thanked by 2JulieColl TCJ
  • francis
    Posts: 10,760
    Very well put Salieri.

    We must ALL know the faith. We cannot plead ignorance in excuse for sin. God won't 'go there'.
  • P.S. Darling PGA, I was a theology major at Christendom College.


    Oh, well wonderful then!

    Please explain, then, what you make of the Holy Father's apparent consideration of the idea that perhaps there will be a relaxing of the reception of Communion for the divorced and remarried who do not have an annulment. Also, speaking as clearly as possible, do you maintain that the Holy Father has no authority to change the discipline as to who may receive Communion? If you do not maintain that, do you believe that he does have the authority to potentially make this change but that it simply is unwise? I'd also like to know your opinion on how he and people such as Cardinal Kasper, with multiple advanced theology degrees, can get it so wrong. Is this simply a case of their wishful thinking?

    Let's just lay it out without beating around the bush. Will you consider the Holy Father to be a heretic if he does this, and the Church without a valid leader? Will you and all who are vehemently against this then be the remnant "true Church?"
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,965
    One can go off the deep end with degrees. They can enlighten, or simply be lipstick on a pig. One of the most educated men I have met has spent a lifetime studying his area of interest, yet never darkened the door of a university. The success of one's education depends on the student more often than on the institution. Theology is a disputatious field to start with, so study doesn't always equal certainty or any measure of rightness.

    BTW, I had 5 or 6 degrees at last count - I lose count of them at times. They are fine to have but are not everything by any means.

    By the way, I have quit worrying about what the Holy Father does or doesn't do. Catholic people have survived both geniuses and incompetent fools on the throne of Peter. They will continue to do so.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • PGA, your premise is false: otherwise, if, objectively, adultery and fornication, an in this instance, by extension, Sacrilegious Communion, are not sins, then neither is, objectively, stealing, murder, or any other of the sins against the Ten Commandments. The whole edifice crumbles.


    If that were my premise, I'd agree with you.

    The salvation of souls is the primary law. The Church, pastorally, NEEDS to do something about the many, many people who are divorced and remarried.

    Many of them want - and indeed COULD GET annulments, save for the fact that their former spouse won't cooperate, or a plethora of other issues.

    To continue to not allow them to receive Communion over - in many cases - the actions of another who may or may not even be in the Church - is ridiculous. I'm glad the Pope is looking for answers to this.
  • By the way, I have quit worrying about what the Holy Father does or doesn't do. Catholic people have survived both geniuses and incompetent fools on the throne of Peter. They will continue to do so.


    Indeed they have - but who here can actually render a good, informed, and valid opinion as to which the current occupant is?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,965
    Indeed they have - but who here can actually render a good, informed, and valid opinion as to which the current occupant is?


    Those judgments are usually more accurate in retrospect than in the person's lifetime.
    Thanked by 2Gavin francis
  • francis
    Posts: 10,760
    discipline as to who may receive Communion


    PGA:

    This is where your wording is bit confused. It is not a discipline, it is a doctrine. Discipline CAN be changed, doctrine CAN NOT.
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Regarding your question above, I'll tiptoe out on a limb and state that I stand with Cardinal Mueller on this question.

    With whom do you stand since we poor benighted laypeople aren't allowed to have our own opinions?
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Salieri
  • I wonder how many people in this discussion are divorced. Or remarried.

    Uh, me. The Facebook status for my relationship to the Church: "It's complicated". Further deponent sayeth not.

    I just want to note that, if the Church were the force in society that it once was, and if society had the same understanding of marriage that it once did, we would not be having this conversation. THAT's what need to be fixed. If a difference in discipline can help fix that, it might be worth discussing. But I suspect it's a rearrangement of the deck chairs on the Titanic.

    Let's take a hypothetical: a man is baptized Protestant. He is confirmed and has made some attempt to practice the faith, but has fallen away by the time he marries. He marries multiple times, not in Christian ceremonies.By virtue of being once a Christian, his marriages are presumed valid. They very clearly WEREN'T, in canon law (neither fruitful, faithful, nor permanent). So get the annulment, right? Where is the justice in giving this person a harder time than somebody whose parents didn't do right by his religious education? Why should he be held to a contract the terms of which he didn't agree to?

    I don't have an easy solution to that. But I don't think the question is out of bounds.

  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    It's difficult, actually impossible, to wade through all the slog of everyone's learned and informed opinions.
    What I knew over 42 years ago, sanctioned as of this coming January, is that the vows I would make to W. were for real. REAL. Before God. But tho' God mattered then, my (our) vow(s) were solemnly and utterly truly sworn for our own sakes. Can this be, "be," what Jesus knew to be the heart of His institution of Holy Matrimony that no man should rend asunder?
    What I know: I must be concerned with the conduct of our marriage because when I swore unto it my life was no longer just between me and God. Add to that-we both never crossed the sacramental veil absolutely knowingly conscious of what our vows and matrimony witnessed to the communities past, present and future.
    So, I am sure of very few things. After 42 years, it is quite natural and unapologetically necessary for spouses to relieve themselves of each other's company but for a while. The duration of while is pertinent to each couple. I'm speaking of chanting in Phoenix for a few hours, but which takes me days away, which provides her solitude, likely solace but certainly relief from the tedium of routine. Forty two years, yeah, routine isn't an issue. In whose dreams?
    Ultimately, I stand obviously with HMChurch, Jesus and the magisterium on the verity and sanctity of Holy Matrimony. That said, I don't have any time or interest in deliberating how HMC and the few, the proud, the orthodox/liberal go about defining how the couple (of any persuasion next door) should go about their marital business. Neither my wife, nor any of them, nor any of you will be standing with me at my personal judgment.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,196
    Jeffrey Q offers a scenario:
    Let's take a hypothetical: a man is baptized Protestant. He is confirmed and has made some attempt to practice the faith, but has fallen away by the time he marries. He marries multiple times, not in Christian ceremonies.By virtue of being once a Christian, his marriages are presumed valid. They very clearly WEREN'T, in canon law (neither fruitful, faithful, nor permanent). So get the annulment, right? Where is the justice in giving this person a harder time than somebody whose parents didn't do right by his religious education? Why should he be held to a contract the terms of which he didn't agree to?


    I'm not sure if I understand your question. An unbaptized person with a similar background would have to face a similar consideration of his history if he wanted to marry a Catholic. Is that what you're getting at?
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,228
    IIRC, B-16, who has some credentials in theo, admired the work of Omega-Man deChardin, a heretic.

    Which leads one to speculate that degreeification ain't all it's cracked up to be by those who have degrees.

    And PGA, ecclesiology is not the same as moral theology. But you knew that, right?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,196
    I appreciate a couple of things about Teilhard. According to the account of a Jesuit colleague, he had an admirable devotion to the person of our Lord, and he obeyed the restrictions placed on him when he was forbidden to publish, and serenely lived out the remainder of his life. I wish we could say that about any priest who came under disciplinary restrictions.


    Thanked by 2Adam Wood gregp
  • Ps 50(51):19
    Mt 19:1–12
    Lk 22:19–22
    1 Cor 11:26–27
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    That was fun, Aristotle.

    Here's one more for your reflection:

    John 14:1 (channeling Cardinal Mueller, of course, since as a simple laywoman I can't offer an informed theological opinion on such an obscure and complicated theological matter as the indissolubility of marriage. )

    The Prefect of the Vatican Congregation of Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal Gerhard Ludwig Müller, reiterating that there should be no gap between teaching and pastoral care in the Catholic Church. "Every separation of theory and practice of the faith would be the manifestation of a subtle Christological heresy in principle," Mueller said in a speech, which was published by the Vatican newspaper "L'Osservatore Romano" on Tuesday. This would "obscure" the dynamics of the Incarnation, which is part of any "healthy theology", said Mueller. Christ had said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. Therefore, there can be no truth without life and no life without truth. Article here..
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,466
    IIRC, B-16, who has some credentials in theo, admired the work of Omega-Man deChardin, a heretic.


    He is not a heretic. He explored ideas which the church decided were not true or edifying. The church asked him to stop doing that. He stopped.

    Being "a heretic" isn't merely being wrong. It's being obstinately wrong.

    Which leads one to speculate that degreeification ain't all it's cracked up to be by those who have degrees.


    Benedict's opinion is worth respecting for many reasons quite apart from his degreeification. His lifetime of faithful service, his intense witness to the orthodox Catholic faith, his actions as Pope to restore right worship in Christ's church...

    Benedict's admiration for Teilhard leads me to speculate that there is something admirable in Teilhard.
    Thanked by 1gregp
  • francis
    Posts: 10,760
    Benedict's admiration for Teilhard leads me to speculate that there is something admirable in Teilhard.

    Benedict's admiration for Teilhard leads me to speculate that no one is exempt from admiring someone who thinks erroneously.

    A whole bunch of truth mixed with just a teeny weeny bit of lies makes it all rot. Or at least, very dangerous.

    (I forgot to mention that I was making an apodictic statement)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,760
    by the way, here is an answer to one of my previous questions in this thread.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN9y3RVqUtc
  • francis
    Posts: 10,760
    Adam speaking of deChardin

    He is not a heretic. He explored ideas which the church decided were not true or edifying. The church asked him to stop doing that. He stopped.

    Being "a heretic" isn't merely being wrong. It's being obstinately wrong.
    Would you stake your reputation on this claim? Was not he obstinate in his philosophy even when exiled to China?

    1939: Rome banned his work L’Énergie Humaine.

    He then stayed in France, where he was immobilized by malaria. During his return voyage to Beijing he wrote L'Energie spirituelle de la Souffrance (Spiritual Energy of Suffering) (Complete Works, tome VII).

    1941: Teilhard submitted to Rome his most important work, Le Phénomène Humain.

    1947: Rome forbade him to write or teach on philosophical subjects.

    1948: Teilhard was called to Rome by the Superior General of the Jesuits who hoped to acquire permission from the Holy See for the publication of his most important work Le Phénomène Humain. But the prohibition to publish it issued in 1944, was again renewed. Teilhard was also forbidden to take a teaching post in the College de France.

    1949: Permission to publish Le Groupe Zoologique was refused.

    1950: Teilhard was named to the French Academy of Sciences.

    1955: Teilhard was forbidden by his Superiors to attend the International Congress of Paleontology.

    1957: The Supreme Authority of the Holy Office, in a decree dated 15 November 1957, forbade the works of de Chardin to be retained in libraries, including those of religious institutes. His books were not to be sold in Catholic bookshops and were not to be translated in other languages.

    1958: In April of this year, all Jesuit publications in Spain (“Razón y Fe”, “Sal Terrae”,“Estudios de Deusto”) etc., carried a notice from the Spanish Provincial of the Jesuits, that de Chardin’s works had been published in Spanish without previous ecclesiastical examination and in defiance of the decrees of the Holy See.

    1962: A decree of the Holy Office dated 30 June, under the authority of Pope John XXIII warned that “... it is obvious that in philosophical and theological matters, the said works [Teilhard’s] are replete with ambiguities or rather with serious errors which offend Catholic doctrine. That is why ... the Rev. Fathers of the Holy Office urge all Ordinaries, Superiors, and Rectors ... to effectively protect, especially the minds of the young, against the dangers of the works of Fr. Teilhard de Chardin and his followers”. (AAS, 6 August 1962).

    1963: The Vicariate of Rome (a diocese ruled in the name of Pope Paul VI (who had just become Pope in 1963) by his Cardinal Vicar) in a decree dated 30 September, required that Catholic booksellers in Rome should withdraw from circulation the works of Teilhard, together with those books which favour his erroneous doctrines. The text of this document was published in daily L’Aurore of Paris, dated 2 October 1963, and was reproduced in Nouvelles de Chretiente, 10 October 1963, p. 35.

    Wikipedia
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,466
    Would you stake your reputation on this claim?


    I would not stake my reputation on any claim.
    I'm here to converse, not win debates.
    Thanked by 2Liam melofluent
  • francis
    Posts: 10,760
    Adam:

    OK. Thanks for clarification.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,466
    However, I might point out what B16 said about that weird old Jesuit:

    Pope Benedict XVI, in his book Spirit of the Liturgy incorporates Teilhard's vision as a touchstone of the Catholic Mass:
    “And so we can now say that the goal of worship and the goal of creation as a whole are one and the same—divinization, a world of freedom and love. But this means that the historical makes its appearance in the cosmic. The cosmos is not a kind of closed building, a stationary container in which history may by chance take place. It is itself movement, from its one beginning to its one end. In a sense, creation is history. Against the background of the modern evolutionary world view, Teilhard de Chardin depicted the cosmos as a process of ascent, a series of unions. From very simple beginnings the path leads to ever greater and more complex unities, in which multiplicity is not abolished but merged into a growing synthesis, leading to the “Noosphere”, in which spirit and its understanding embrace the whole and are blended into a kind of living organism. Invoking the epistles to the Ephesians and Colossians, Teilhard looks on Christ as the energy that strives toward the Noosphere and finally incorporates everything in its “fullness’. From here Teilhard went on to give a new meaning to Christian worship: the transubstantiated Host is the anticipation of the transformation and divinization of matter in the christological “fullness”. In his view, the Eucharist provides the movement of the cosmos with its direction; it anticipates its goal and at the same time urges it on.”


    (Also from the Wikipedia article.)

    ---
    One other point of clarification.

    My statement above:

    Benedict's admiration for Teilhard leads me to speculate that there is something admirable in Teilhard.


    I will stand behind this statement because I believe that Benedict is both more learned and more faithful than I am. I do not have the resources or the capacity to make a judgement about Teilhard's relevance or validity. Benedict does.

    Am I going to go make it a point to study his work? No. (Ain't nobody got time for that.)

    However --- The observation that Benedict admired someone affects my opinion of that someone much more than it affects my opinion about Benedict.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,760
    Here's a good book on deChardin

    https://tanbooks.benedictpress.com/index.php/Teilhardism-New-Religion

    Love this one:

    What increasingly dominates my interest is the effort to establish within myself, and to diffuse around me, a new religion (let’s call it an improved Christianity if you like) whose personal God is no longer the great neolithic landowner of times gone by, but the Soul of the world……(Letter to Leontine Zanta, Jan 26 1936)


    More quotes here:

    https://veneremurcernui.wordpress.com/2013/04/05/words-of-the-fathers-part-1-pierre-teilhard-de-chardin/
  • francis
    Posts: 10,760
    ...I believe that Benedict is both more learned and more faithful than I am. I do not have the resources or the capacity to make a judgement about Teilhard's relevance or validity.
    You may be right on the first point. On the second point, I don't buy it. They guy spawned a new religion that was condemned before VII and is now spreading like wildfire. Can error become truth?

    I'm not out to win any debates either. There is no debating the truth of the faith; just upholding what has already been passed down to us. One does not have to take sides when one is on the side of truth. It always becomes self evident. (if one is truly seeking it)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,196
    There is such a thing as excessive severity, and one sign of it is to spend a lot of effort fighting old battles as though they were current. For example, to spend time *here*, on a music forum, writing about the errors of a thinker who was fashionable 50 years ago and was influential, but is largely forgotten. If you want to go back to 1962 and warn people against the influence of Teilhard then, go to it. But to fret about it now -- it's just too late.

    Teilhard's errors had their influence, and they may still circulate, but most forum readers have probably never heard of him. So all this chat is, in effect, introducing him to potential new readers. I don't think that would be a good thing, because there still is an official warning against his writings.

    If you're not sure that he has faded, here's some data. Searching on Google Books for books containing the name Teilhard in their title, here's how many turn up:

    1960s: 261
    1970s: 121
    1980s: 95
    1990s: 46
    2000s: 46
    2010s: 23 (for a half-decade)

    So interest in Teilhard has reached a steady low level.

    If someone doesn't like the fact that Pope Benedict XVI, at some point, allegedly wrote about the good points the priest, who died in 1955 -- it's a pity that the grousers do not yet recognize charity and magnanimity toward the erring as good qualities.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,760
    chonak

    The name Teilhard may be decreasing in google, but his religion is vast and has insidiously infected society, both inside and outside the church. If people do not realize the roots of error, error cannot be rooted out.

    I did not bring up the subject. I merely added my own thoughts (which i attempted to back with facts including the church's condemnation of his work) as you have also now done.
  • And PGA, ecclesiology is not the same as moral theology. But you knew that, right?


    Of course I know that. But even if I didn't, there would be no shame in that for me. I, after all, have not taken to calling Pope Francis' theology (and that of various cardinals) into question, thus claiming by implication that I know better. I've never implied a wealth of theological knowledge; to the contrary, I feel that much of it is above my pay grade and I'll leave it to the real experts.

    If Pope Francis does something or says something that to me is shocking, my first impulse will not be to say something like "Well, we were warned that there might be an apostate pope!" My first impulse will be to see what other theologians have said on the subject and to above all give him the benefit of the doubt of being an expert in the area of Theology, which I most definitely am not.

  • dad29
    Posts: 2,228
    which I most definitely am not.


    Thank You.
  • Not sure why that barb is supposed to sting. I never claimed to be nor criticized anyone on their theology. I called into question the practice of people who ostensibly imply they know more than the pope.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Your modesty is admirable, PGA, and isn't it amazing: I didn't realize you were an ultramontane. (You don't know how many times I was called that for upholding the Church's ban on contraception back in the days of Pope John Paul II, and yet here I am being suspected of harboring schismatic tendencies. Ouch. How did that happen, I wonder.)

    At any rate, now that you're an ultramontane, I'm sure you didn't fail to celebrate the 150th anniversary of the Syllabus of Errors. Ultramontanes Unite!
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    In fact, dear PGA, let's us new ultramontane buddies take a walk down memory lane to see all the things we can celebrate as hermeneutic-of-continuity Catholics:

    Since it's Christmas why don't we start with Pope Benedict XVI's famous "hermeneutic of continuity" address to the Roman Curia of December of '05. In this address, our beloved pope emeritus basically said there are two ways to interpret Catholic doctrine. The first is to interpret every new development in continuity with what came before since Christ, the Teacher, who exercises His magisterium through the popes, cannot contradict himself since He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. (cf. also Cardinal Mueller)

    The second (and erroneous) view of Catholic doctrine mentioned by Pope Benedict XVI was the "hermeneutic of discontinuity", held by those who claim that the Church can teach something today which contradicts what it had ever taught on the same matter from the beginning.

    So, in the spirit of fidelity to Pope Benedict's "hermeneutic of continuity", I ask you this question: is the German bishops' new proposal to legalize divorce for Catholics an example of teaching in the hermeneutic of continuity or an example of teaching in the hermeneutic of discontinuity?

    God love you, PGA, and I hope you've recovered from the flu.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,760
    I called into question the practice of people who ostensibly imply they know more than the pope.
    hmmmm. this reminds me of Athanasius. Didn't he question the pope? Did not Athanasius become a saint? Did the pope he questioned become a saint?

    More (from another thread on the web)

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    Neo-Cath's and Sede's share Popalatry, they share many of the same ideas, they are false idea's though that cannot be traced for all time. Popalatry is the opposite heresy of Gallicanism, where one thinks they never have to obey the Pope the other thinks they ALWAYS have to obey the Pope even when he contradicts the Ordinary Magisterium (Which is always right).

    Let's see, Pope John XXII taught Heresy and was a real Pope, Liberius acted against the faith then repented some 20 or so years later, was a real Pope through the whole the time, Honorius was declared a Heretic by the Third Council of Constantinople and was a Pope, The Borgia Pope turned the Papal Palace into a brothel, his evil son and those who supported his policies were hunted down by the Church after his death, they dug up Caesar Borgia's body to dump it off church property and he was still a Pope.

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    Apodictically speaking, the pope is the Vicar of Christ, vice president of the church, not the president; Christ is the Head, and the pope is bound and under oath to uphold the magisterium of the Church... to protect and defend the deposit of faith. That is his primary responsibility.

    The Church cannot be viewed as a human institution. We do not and cannot make decisions about how we want things to go apart from the magisterium. The church is a divine institution, and we are all subject to its laws, doctrine and dogma. Even the pope.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,228
    The 'divorce' proposal (and its companion gay 'marriage' proposal) are not really changes in doctrine. But they DO ask for changes in discipline.

    Analogous to retaining the criminal law forbidding murder, but abandoning the penalties therefor. That's why Cdl. Burke is so concerned.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,760
    I guess if the church changes the 'discipline' then marriage isn't really a life long thing after all! (slightly purple bold?) Heck, hardly anyone knew what they were getting into. We were all young and innocent and 'in love.' For most of us it was just an emotional fling. How could it be binding? I mean, many Catholics don't even believe in the true presence... so what's the difference anyway?
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Look at all the joy in this thread!
  • I guess if the church changes the 'discipline' then marriage isn't really a life long thing after all! (slightly purple bold?) Heck, hardly anyone knew what they were getting into. We were all young and innocent and 'in love.' For most of us it was just an emotional fling. How could it be binding? I mean, many Catholics don't even believe in the true presence... so what's the difference anyway?


    What you just said is EXACTLY what the priest-canon lawyer I mentioned earlier was getting at (he also had a masters degree in psychology.)

    He was basically saying that ANY MARRIAGE has faults and probably has impediments that can justify nullifying it.
  • The 'divorce' proposal (and its companion gay 'marriage' proposal) are not really changes in doctrine. But they DO ask for changes in discipline.


    And those changes are within the Pope's prerogative.