Shall we change the thread to "Grumpy Catholics", Charles?

PGA, let me add to dad's input my own observations about traddies and preppers. I work in a FSSP parish and have for six years. Though I embrace the traditions of the Church, I adamantly do not wish to use the term "traditionalist" applied to myself. I am Catholic, and that is enough for me, even in this age of... significant ecclesial identity crisis.

I regularly- several times a week- socialize with both traddies and preppers, Their children come to my home, and mine to theirs, I eat with them and talk with them, etc. I have to say that your comments on this thread- and other threads- do not align with my observations.

Assuming you are of good will and not like some of our fellow Catholics who use the trad community as their go-to scapegoat, I wonder if your immediate circle of trad and prepper friends are uncommonly reactionary, or if perhaps you associate with such folks but don't know them as friends or listen to the nuances of their positions.

PGA, let me add to dad's input my own observations about traddies and preppers. I work in a FSSP parish and have for six years. Though I embrace the traditions of the Church, I adamantly do not wish to use the term "traditionalist" applied to myself. I am Catholic, and that is enough for me, even in this age of... significant ecclesial identity crisis.

I agree. I hate the labels, and that's why I only use them in quotation marks. One is either Catholic or not - there are not political "parties" within Catholicism. However, it seems that sometimes I have to engage in the labels for clarity.

I regularly- several times a week- socialize with both traddies and preppers, Their children come to my home, and mine to theirs, I eat with them and talk with them, etc. I have to say that your comments on this thread- and other threads- do not align with my observations.

Your experience is uniquely yours; I cannot disprove it, nor is there anything to be disproven. It is your experience. I suspect that my view is a bit different because I'm "on the outside looking in."

Assuming you are of good will and not like some of our fellow Catholics who use the trad community as their go-to scapegoat, I wonder if your immediate circle of trad and prepper friends are uncommonly reactionary, or if perhaps you associate with such folks but don't know them as friends or listen to the nuances of their positions.

Anything is possible; there's not a whole lot of nuance to be read into "We're praying that this pontificate is a short one."

I don't know what the correct label is for that particular niche;

Sane.

Fides, spes, caritas et veritas, et Missa cantata et musica sacra laetificant cor meum.

I always liked the more difficult version: "Per aspera ad astra"

What's a prepper?

What's a prepper?

People who prepare for disaster as a lifestyle choice.

people who prepare for [disaster as a lifestyle choice] --- organist

people who [prepare for disaster] as a lifestyle choice --- prepper

Such a kind thought! Many thanks and Christmas blessings to you and yours! By the way, as I've pointed out several times, the title of this thread (Gloomy Catholics) was extracted from a recent papal sermon. I certainly don't identify myself as such, although it's possible that Catholics of my ideological slant might be reflexively included under that heading by some.

I'll be happy to change the title to be more in keeping with the blessed Christmas season. I think we've all had enough time to reflect on how we can cope with the current modus operandi without losing our joy and serenity. My thanks to all who contributed their thoughts and suggestions. I very much appreciate your candour and thoughtfulness.

I like Pope Francis. He seems to be a no nonsense type of person who is doing his best to root out the corruption and greed that exists in the Vatican.

I'm sure we can all agree that keeping the sixth and ninth commandments intact is part of any comprehensive plan for Church renewal.

Yes.

Sigh.

DRAT!!

Yep, just imagine how fine life could be if we could shred the Ten Commandments and throw out all those outdated rules and regulations. Yee-haw.

Party at Julie's place - pass the word! LOL.

Yep, just imagine how fine life could be if we could shred the Ten Commandments and throw out all those outdated rules and regulations

Just like neopaganism, but with worse music. :-)

JulieColl:

I think people are waking up. What we have now is material heresy, and it is about to graduate to formal heresy.

It's good to brush up on the terms and understanding what they mean here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm#REF_III

I am praying that Papa Francesco will in the end bring all this "diabolical disorientation" (cf. Blessed Paul VI) to a screeching halt.

I wish I could share your confidence. I am afraid he will canonize Paul VI and make things far worse than they ever were before.

I wish I could be as optimistic as you, JulieColl, but I unfortunately think more like Charles. However, God is above all things, and He is capable of miracles. Keep praying JulieColl... keep praying!

Yes, indeed, Chris, Our Lady's words at Fatima and Akita have certainly been on my mind, too, and who can't help but be affected by the recent words of that man of immense gravitas, Cardinal Burke: "I am very worried"?

Interesting article, Kevin. But there are not just two camps.

Here, this is a well written perspective to that which I am alluding.

http://www.harvestingthefruit.com/topic/neo-catholics-are-the-catholic-equivalent-to-protestant-fundamentalists/

Thanks for the links to the great articles. I think Rod Dreher's analysis is very accurate and reflects my own observations very well. About fifteen years ago all the conservative Catholics I knew could be easily placed in one ideological camp; we were all basically pro-life Reagan/Buchanan Republicans with growing families and voting for a pro-life Republican was pretty much our highest priority, but the cracks appeared when "conservatives" wholeheartedly embraced the so-called War on Terror, waterboarding POW's and trillion-dollar deficits.

That's when big differences first appeared among the conservatives I knew, and shortly after that, with the promulgation of Summorum Pontificum and the increased availability of the Latin Mass, the conservatives I knew took different paths again. I can say almost to a man, that the "neocon" "Bush" Catholics pretty much stayed with the OF while the "Buchanan" conservatives began attending the EF. I know it's too simple and trite to make distinctions like that, but that was pretty much my experience.

I fear another split is imminent; while discussing with a very good, upstanding conservative friemd the upcoming Synod XV and the German bishops' open proposal to legalize Catholic divorce, things took a very uncomfortable turn. It was plain to all concerned that we didn't see eye to eye on the issue, and he was fully prepared to modulate as needed to keep things peaceful and practical. I was reminded of Cardinal Ratzinger's phrase, "the pragmatism of the affluent," and the tendency to make maintaining peace with the establishmet the highest priority. For his part, I'm sure he was equally annoyed by my "rigidity" and "intransigence."

Whether or not this issue of Holy Communion for the divorced and remarried will tear apart the lay faithful as it has begun publicly dividing cardinals and bishops, is anybody's guess, but I'm afraid the political/ideological/philosophical/doctrinal fault lines are already in place and a showdown of some sort is coming.

Well, PGA, I'm glad to hear that you think we should agree with the Pope, and I too believe that and have all my life. So, in the spirit of what you have just said, I have a few questions for you:

Do you agree with God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit who declared and revealed that marriage is indissoluble, who also said, "I hate divorce," through the mouth of the Old Testament prophet, and who also said, "If you love me, keep my commandments," and who also said, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but not one jot nor tittle of the Law will pass away"?

Do you feel that we are required to "agree" with every single pope in the history of the Catholic Church who has upheld the indissolubility of marriage?

Do you feel that you need to agree with every cardinal, bishop, doctor of the Church, ecumenical council, encyclical, apostolic exhortation, etc., which has upheld the divine mandate concerning the indissolubility of marriage?

Do you agree with St. John Paul II who in his magisterium upheld the divine law concerning the indissolubility of marriage just 33 years ago in Familiaris Consortio?

Do you agree with St. John Fisher and St. Thomas More who died rather than accept a dishonest and immoral contradiction betraying the indissolubility of marriage?

So, PGA, if you agree with all of the above, what exactly is the "problem"? How can we be holier than the Church if we're simply agreeing with the Ten Commandments and what the Church has always taught?

I don't want to dampen the progress here, Julie, but as I read through your queries I couldn't help but have a very Francis-like (I think) reaction- "This sounds remniscent of the Pharisees' semantical trap they thought would cleverly trick our Lord into betraying Himself," ie. Which is the greatest commandment?

... and hence why it is becoming clearer and clearer that a divide is occuring, and many will blindly follow a prelate, even if he goes off a cliff.

Not me! If he goes off that cliff, he does it alone. LOL.

“I do not think there are many among Bishops that will be saved, but many more that perish.”
St. John Chrysostom

Don't put your trust in princes or prelates. Only trust Christ!