Joyful Catholics
  • I don't want to dampen the progress here, Julie, but as I read through your queries I couldn't help but have a very Francis-like (I think) reaction- "This sounds remniscent of the Pharisees' semantical trap they thought would cleverly trick our Lord into betraying Himself," ie. Which is the greatest commandment?


    This. You beat me to it.

    We have a valid, sitting successor to St. Peter, and to whom has been given the power to bind and loose, in case anyone cares.

    I should add that the increasingly schismatic tone here is quite disturbing.

    During the Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict years, I said it to many Call-to-Action and New-Church types; Now I'll say it here:

    If you don't like the Church, leave it.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I hope we're not seriously claiming that the Holy Father may have the authority to delete the Sixth Commandment. If so, that would mean he can also do away with the greatest commandment. In fact, if so, he could theoretically do away with all the commandments, and all the sacraments, and we'd all be out of a job. LOL.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • No one is deleting the sixth commandment.

    If you want to be such a literalist, Jesus said nothing about annulments either. So let's have none of this psycho-babble "He didn't enter the marriage with completely free will because of a psychological situation" crap either! You got married, you're married. No annulment, divorce, or any other dissolving it.

    I've got news for you: A canon lawyer who specializes in annulments and worked in a tribunal once told me that literally ANY MARRIAGE could be annulled. Read that again. He said that if they examined the case of ANY MARRIAGE, EVER, with a fine toothed comb - he was VERY confident that they could find some deficiency that could render it annulled.

    So your clutching of your pearls over people who don't get an annulment - for many reasons - is pretty laughable. It's as though you think that most of them COULDN'T get one.

    The Church is given to us by Jesus - but it is thoroughly human. Your sixth commandment ship sailed long time ago.

    Finally, the Pope can change discipline - including who is regularly admitted to Communion.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    schismatic tone here is quite disturbing. If you don't like the Church, leave it.

    There is no such thing as a schismatic tone. There is truth and there is falsehood. The term schism literally means, 'to be cut off'... and that means cut off from the faith, the one true church... not any man, no matter who he may be.

    The pope does not have the authority to alter or change dogma. If he attempts to do so, he is the one that 'cuts himself off' from the faith.

    I would be suspect of a canon lawyer who says the things you are proporting. What is his name?
  • There is no such thing as a schismatic tone. There is truth and there is falsehood. The term schism literally means, 'to be cut off'... and that means cut off from the faith, the one true church... not any man, no matter who he may be.


    Actually, there is a such thing as implication and innuendo. And that sets "tone."

    I would be suspect of a canon lawyer who says the things you are proporting. What is his name?


    First of all, he's no celebrity. You will have never heard of him. Second of all, he's now a retired priest living in obscurity, and, I believe, not even saying mass publicly anymore due to health problems. There's literally no need to drag his name into this.

    If my not revealing his name means you don't believe me, that's fine. Don't believe me then.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,164
    I thought this thread was about joyful Catholics, not a gripe-fest for whatever you don't like about the Pope today. We (most of us anyway) are the laity. Our job is to support and obey the Magesterium (which if I remember correctly is the Pope in communion with the bishops.) Whatever they decide, they decide. Our job is to humbly submit.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    Credibility, PGA. Credibility. Any of us can throw around the term Canon Lawyer. I did on this forum a few times. It's not the name we are after. It is his exact quotes and his willingness to stand behind what he says. Canon Hesse says it very clearly. Watch his videos on schism material and schism formal.

    No one has the right to judge whether anyone is a schismatic. That is the job of God and the church. So I would be very careful about calling anyone a schismatic, or having a schismatic tone, or any other judgmental statement. It's probably best if we all stick to the protocol.

    Avoid Flames
    Every now and then, you may be tempted to add fuel to a heated topic by escalating the anger. Think twice and check yourself. In the event your post is not pulled, it will remain available for everyone to see, for a long time. Criticize arguments, not people.
    Do Not Defame
    Members may not level insinuations of heresy, bad faith, or criminality against members; members should also avoid such inflammatory language against non-members.


    On that note, here's another post related to our subject at hand.

    http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2014/12/30/italian-writer-stirs-hornets-nest-with-doubts-about-pope-francis/
  • The idea and suggestion that the Pope is over-stepping his boundaries and is doing things that he has no authority to do, and therefore is undermining and essentially overthrowing the entire Church, is either schismatic or is frighteningly accurate, in an apocalyptical way.

    I'm putting my money on "schismatic" in this case.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    PGA

    I don't think you understand the definition of schismatic. There is no such thing as schism from a pope. There is only schism from the Church. Popes have been schismatics in the past. In that light, what you say is contradictory.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    ...or is frighteningly accurate


    Time will tell.

    YES!!!! SOME of us are certainly alarmed to say the least. You are starting to see the picture!
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Well, PGA, your opinions aside, Cardinal Mueller, head of the CDF, called this proposed "disciplinary change" heretical. The Pope cannot allow people to come to Communion who are in an objective state of sin. He cannot do it. Cf. 1 Cor. 11:27:

    "Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord."

    Far be it from me to explain how this approaching crisis may be resolved. I am a serene, joyfilled Catholic, clutching my Rosary and my Liber, trying to navigate my little boat in very troubled waters.

    All I know is that two of the most important tenets of my faith, dogmas I would die defending if I had to--- the indissolubility of marriage and the necessity of being in a state of grace before receiving Holy Communion---seem to be on a collision course with another central dogma of the Faith: the infallibility and primacy of the Holy Father.

    All my life I've championed popes and their teaching, and I do not challenge this pope's authority now. I'm just trying to figure out what I'm going to do if, God forbid, I am required someday to jettison some Catholic dogmas in favor of another. Is that the dilemma that is coming? I don't know if that is what's coming, and I hope and pray that it is not. However, I'm not afraid; my eyes and trust are pinned on those who are far better, holier and wiser than I to know what to do if such a situation occurs.

    I would humbly ask, however, that a little compassion and mercy be extended to those who, like myself, find the very foundations of their Catholic faith shaking under their feet and are trying to maintain their balance through it all.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817

    I am a serene, joyfilled Catholic, clutching my Rosary and my Liber and trying to navigate my little boat in very troubled waters.


    JulieColl:

    that is a very cute image. reminds me of john bosco.



    bosco.jpg
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    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • PGA

    I don't think you understand the definition of schismatic. There is no such thing as schism from a pope. There is only schism from the Church. Popes have been schismatics in the past. In that light, what you say is contradictory.


    You do realize that you are making something very simple and black and white that has NEVER been so simple, easily defined, or black and white, right?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    PGA:

    you are making something very simple and black and white


    Not me, my dear friend. I am simply recounting what has been said. It is clearly laid out in canon law, doctrine and the writings of many popes in our sacred tradition. Would you be interested in citations? If so, start with Canon Hesse. He is on YouTube and discusses this in depth, and has a propencity for remembering and citing doc, par., and sentence far better than I could ever do, and he has the credentials to go along with it.

    NEVER been so simple


    And here, I beg to differ. Truth is very simple. There is no evading truth. God is very simple. God is black and white. Truth does not change. Opinions do. Trust not in man, trust in God and in His Church.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    A good scripture for this whole topic comes to mind from Ephesians:

    "And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors, 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ; 14That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive 15But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body, being compacted and fitly joined together, by what every joint supplieth, according to the operation in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body, unto the edifying of itself in charity. 17This then I say and testify in the Lord: That henceforward you walk not as also the Gentiles walk in the vanity of their mind, 18Having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their hearts. 19Who despairing, have given themselves up to lasciviousness, unto the working of all uncleanness, unto the working of all uncleanness, unto covetousness. 20But you have not so learned Christ; 21If so be that you have heard him, and have been taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22To put off, according to former conversation, the old man, who is corrupted according to the desire of error. 23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind: 24And put on the new man, who according to God is created in justice and holiness of truth. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak ;ye the truth every man with his neighbour; for we are members one of another."
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    As an easterner, we have been with Rome, been with the Orthodox, been with Rome again. Today, we are with Rome. LOL.

    Granted, popes have "bind/loose" authority, as do all other bishops in some sense. Popes rarely have used that authority and probably wont start anytime soon.

    It's all kind of amusing. If the pope uses his "bind/loose" authority to do something that sets all of you on your ears, what will you ultramontannies do besides rend garments and gnash teeth? The west has invested far too much in that office and given it powers beyond belief. I agree with the Orthodox who support the papacy as it was in the first 1,000 years of Christianity. It wasn't an imperial office then.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    Charles:

    They have bind/loose authority on discipline, not on matters of Faith. If the pope tomorrow proclaimed that 'sin is no more, I banish confession forever', well, he would be in formal schism. right?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    If he decreed that murder, apostasy and adultery were the only sins requiring confession and that the Eucharist forgave all others, he would be right in line with the early church which held the same. The long list of mortal/venial/confessable and non-confessable sins are something we can thank the crazy Scholastic theologians for. The early church was not as crazy as it later became.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    You avoided the question.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    If the pope actually did what you propose, you would worry about it. I wouldn't and would go on believing and practicing as before. My faith does not rest on that office. If it goes nuts, it goes nuts. The loss of faith in Rome has been prophesied for centuries and it will happen, whether in our lifetimes or later.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    You still avoided the question.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Schism? Wouldn't that be for the Cardinals and bishops to determine? As to what constitutes sin, that is a different matter.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    Well, I was trying to make it very clear that it was ALL sin. "Nothing is an offence to God from this day forward" type of thing.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Francis (non Papa) wrote:
    Popes have been schismatics in the past.

    I have to wonder what Francis might be referring to.

    The Church's definition of schism in canon 751 is: the obstinate refusal of submission to the Pope or refusal of communion with the members subject to him.
  • Re PGA'a canon lawyer's claim: recently I heard a sermon on annulment (probably from AudioSancto) which claimed that in a recent year, in the D. of Cleveland and Pittsburgh, EVERY annulment case presented had been granted. And the strictest diocese in the country for annulments only rejects 70%.

    So yeah, I'm supporting an anonymous priest with another anonymous priest. ;-)
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    JQ, you've always been, and hopefully always will be a hoot! Deo gratias.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    chonak.

    Yea, I guess we are talking about two things here. Heresy and schism.

    Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.


    So when a pope proclaims something against the truth, does he fall error to both?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    Here is from newadvent:

    It's a very messy subject.

    Schism (from the Greek schisma, rent, division) is, in the language of theology and canon law, the rupture of ecclesiastical union and unity, i.e. either the act by which one of the faithful severs as far as in him lies the ties which bind him to the social organization of the Church and make him a member of the mystical body of Christ, or the state of dissociation or separation which is the result of that act. In this etymological and full meaning the term occurs in the books of the New Testament. By this name St. Paul characterizes and condemns the parties formed in the community of Corinth (1 Corinthians 1:12): "I beseech you, brethren", he writes, ". . . that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment" (ibid., i, 10). The union of the faithful, he says elsewhere, should manifest itself in mutual understanding and convergent action similar to the harmonious co-operation of our members which God hath tempered "that there might be no schism in the body" (1 Corinthians 12:25). Thus understood, schism is a genus which embraces two distinct species: heretical or mixed schism and schism pure and simple. The first has its source in heresy or joined with it, the second, which most theologians designate absolutely as schism, is the rupture of the bond of subordination without an accompanying persistent error, directly opposed to a definite dogma. This distinction was drawn by St. Jerome and St. Augustine. "Between heresy and schism", explains St. Jerome, "there is this difference, that heresy perverts dogma, while schism, by rebellion against the bishop, separates from the Church. Nevertheless there is no schism which does not trump up a heresy to justify its departure from the Church (In Ep. ad Tit., iii, 10). And St. Augustine: "By false doctrines concerning God heretics wound faith, by iniquitous dissensions schismatics deviate from fraternal charity, although they believe what we believe" (On Faith and the Creed 9). But as St. Jerome remarks, practically and historically, heresy and schism nearly always go hand in hand; schism leads almost invariably to denial of the papal primacy.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    All I can say is, I hope we don't come to the point JulieColl mentioned. If the pope declares a truth NOT a truth, wow.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    Curious. Does anyone know if the church ever had an instance in its history when a pope formally proclaimed something against doctrine or dogma?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Papal infallibility protects against such contradictions.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Francis: I asked a priest that once, he said that the Holy Spirit would fin a way to gag him, like having his pellegrina wrap round his head .

  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    lol.

    this is an interesting read:

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm

    there are a few references to similar situations such as we are discussing at the end of the article.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    A learned (and anonymous) priest friend who has written several books concerning the papacy told me that he is troubled and concerned by the possibilities of what might happen in the near future. He said the parameters of papal infallibility are these (and I can just see CharlesW grimacing at all the Romanitas) :

    What is not protected:

    1) The pope is not protected against making disciplinary changes that are heretical or favor heresy.

    2) The pope in his exercise of the ordinary magisterium is not protected against making heretical teachings, statements, etc.

    What is protected:

    The pope is protected from making an error in the exercise of the extraordinary magisterium which can be done in two ways:

    1) the pope defines a truth ex cathedra on his own, or
    2) the pope defines a truth in union with all the bishops of the world

    Here's the takeaway from this anonymous priest: he believes, with Cardinal Mueller, that it would be heretical for the pope to allow Communion for the divorced and remarried, but such an event is indeed possible, and the pope the would not be prevented from doing so because it would not be an exercise of the extraordinary magisterium.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Scary! I have learned to take nothing for granted. Remember that mass that could never be changed because Pius V said so? Anything could happen.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    Thank you JulieColl.

    Yes, that is what you will read in the long article I mentioned above. Tedious, but informative.

  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    I should add that the increasingly schismatic tone here is quite disturbing.


    "Schismatic"?

    From what? The Church?
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    I'm just trying to figure out what I'm going to do if, God forbid, I am required someday to jettison some Catholic dogmas in favor of another.


    In all fairness, we're not there yet. If Pp. Bergoglio is merely asking questions for the sake of provoking more thought on (any) topic, fine.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Well, golly, dad29, forgive me my paranoia and for clutching my pearls, etc. I guess I'm too dumb to have realized this whole Communion for the divorced and remarried thing was merely idle chatter, and that the "battle of the titans" between high-ranking prelates and cardinals on this question is some sort of silly game.
  • Here's the takeaway from this anonymous priest: he believes, with Cardinal Mueller, that it would be heretical for the pope to allow Communion for the divorced and remarried, but such an event is indeed possible, and the pope the would not be prevented from doing so because it would not be an exercise of the extraordinary magisterium.


    And of course, ordinary Catholics with little to no advanced training in theology would be competent to make the decision that the Pope is promoting heresy.

    Sounds about right.
  • PGA,

    One shouldn't need an advanced degree or training in theology to know that one was practicing the faith properly. Protestants accept Sola Scriptura, which teaches, in effect, that reading is one's ticket to heaven.

    One shouldn't need to ask the question about why what the Pope [might] promote didn't square with our 4th-grade catechesis.

    That we have come to such a pass that ordinary Catholics can doubt whether the Pope is teaching or promoting material heresy or even formal heresy is a sign of the diabolical at work, surely, since Catholics are told that we can stand with Peter.



  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Okay, fellas, let's table this for now if you want to, and we'll check back a little bit down the road and see how Cardinal Marx is doing in his attempt to modify the Church's, i.e., Christ's, "incomprehensible and unmerciful" (his words, not mine) teaching on marriage.

    I guess for a national hierarchy to be talking about changing Christ's teaching on divorce is perfectly acceptable . . . but anyone who objects must be immediately warned that the very act of objecting to such a possibility makes them guilty of being schismatic, paranoid, pharisaical, intolerant, uncharitable, unmerciful and reactionary.

    Very interesting indeed.
  • PGA,

    One shouldn't need an advanced degree or training in theology to know that one was practicing the faith properly. Protestants accept Sola Scriptura, which teaches, in effect, that reading is one's ticket to heaven.

    One shouldn't need to ask the question about why what the Pope [might] promote didn't square with our 4th-grade catechesis.

    That we have come to such a pass that ordinary Catholics can doubt whether the Pope is teaching or promoting material heresy or even formal heresy is a sign of the diabolical at work, surely, since Catholics are told that we can stand with Peter.


    When I was in fourth grade, I learned that every piece of music is written in a key. Later in life I was introduced to the music of Schoenburg.

    When I was in fourth grade, I learned that the Constitution says that we can't ever be penalized for refusing to talk to authorities. Later in life I learned that the truth is actually a lot more complicated than that, and that sometimes (in complicated situations parsed through by the courts) you actually do have a legal obligation to speak.

    When I was in fourth grade, I learned a very pure and white washed religion that took the human factor out of everything; Mary, Joseph, and everyone else in the Gospels were just obedient pawns of God, doing things without thinking about them much and without much human condition contributing to their actions. Later in life, I learned that each of these were real people, with sometimes conflicted emotions and opinions, who sometimes trusted in God better at some times than other times.

    I hope your understanding of the Faith, of Catholicism and the world is different than it was in fourth grade. There's probably a LOT of things that don't square with Fourth grade catechesis that are not heretical.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • I guess for a national hierarchy to be talking about changing Christ's teaching on divorce is perfectly acceptable . . . but anyone who objects must be immediately warned that the very act of objecting to such a possibility makes them guilty of being schismatic, paranoid, pharisaical, intolerant, uncharitable, unmerciful and reactionary.


    Again, I never saw where Christ talked about arguing cases with Canon lawyers and a defender of the bond, and having an ecclesiastical court determine whether an annulment could be granted.

    Christ's teaching was pretty much "Marriage is forever unless one physically leaves." If you want to go back to some nonsensical, pure "good old days," THAT'S what you should be wanting to go back to.

    As it stands now, we have a process where most people get annulments if they ask; the only reason that they don't ask is one doesn't want to do it.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I wonder how many people in this discussion are divorced. Or remarried.

    I'm not either of those, so I don't feel qualified to speak to how those who are live their faith in Christ.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    PGA, the basic processes of annulment inquiries are required by justice, and by the nature of what marriage is. The concept that marriage is a contract is not something invented by the Church: marriage is a social phenomenon which predates the Church. If one is examining the question of whether two people have made a contract, then one is engaged in a question of law. It is a process of *truth-seeking* and *fact-finding*, with reasons proposed on one side of the question and the other.

    Also, I don't believe there is any basis in revelation for the idea that "Marriage is forever unless one physically leaves." There's nothing in the Gospels to suggest that our Lord made marriage dissoluble by abandonment or separation. In every era, there have been many couples separated by circumstances who knew perfectly well that they remained married.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Well, PGA, so you're saying this whole question of Communion for the divorced and remarried is no big deal since we already have "Catholic divorce" in our annulment system? We Catholics already believe in divorce but by a different name?

    If our annulment system is so lax and porous to grant annulments to virtually anyone who asks, isn't it time we fix it instead of formalizing the practice of dissolving valid marriages, if that's what's occurring? (Who am I judge and all that.)

    I thought what Jesus said was, "What God has joined together, let no man put asunder," and "Moses allowed divorce because of the hardness of your hearts." So what's the idea, to live as we believe, or come to believe as we live?

    It appears that Cardinals Marx and Kasper favor the latter while Cardinals Mueller and Brandmuller favor the former.

    One other thing: let's remember the principle of non-contradiction. You can't say I believe in the indissolubility of marriage and then allow divorce by way of fast, easy annulments and/or reception of Communion for the divorced and remarried.

    The Ten Commandments are immutable. They don't expire after 2000 years. There's not an expiration date on them, and God didn't give us the option to renew them by episcopal vote, and if our annulment system has become "Catholic divorce," then it's time to fix the annulment system so it synchronizes with the Ten Commandments, not vice-versa.

    One last thing: Where has the Church ever taught that only bishops and popes are allowed to defend the Faith publicly? Whatever happened to Vatican II's call for the Christifideles to engage in the forum of ideas? Are you seriously going to argue that laypeople can distribute Communion but can't declare that marriage is indissoluble anymore? Are you seriously going to argue that if a cardinal or conference of bishops propose dismantling the Church's teaching on marriage, that a lay person is too stupid and incompetent to open his/her mouth and state that God's teaching still holds even if bishops and cardinals give it up?

    Is St. Thomas More a "pharisee", a "hypocrite", a "dangerous schismatic", and a "paranoid nut" for having opposed Cardinal Wolsey? If so, this marvelous revisionism would make George Orwell cringe.
  • I'm not arguing against annulments or the need for them. But let's recognize what they ARE today, how easily they are gotten, and why some might not get them.

    My point is that Jesus was no fan of divorce and didn't provide annulments - yet somehow, as long as we treat the divorced and remarried who do NOT have annulments as evil and unworthy of Communion, but keep allowing those who get them Communion, we are doing the "Lord's work?"
  • One other thing: let's remember the principle of non-contradiction. You can't say I believe in the indissolubility of marriage and then allow divorce by way of fast, easy annulments and/or reception of Communion for the divorced and remarried.


    Too late; that ship has sailed. What do you want to do, scale things further back (maybe fully back to the dark ages) and deny most annulments now?

    One last thing: Where has the Church ever taught that only bishops and popes are allowed to defend the Faith publicly? Whatever happened to Vatican II's call for the Christifideles to engage in the forum of ideas? Are you seriously going to argue that laypeople can distribute Communion but can't declare the marriage is indissoluble anymore? Are you seriously going to argue that if a cardinal or conference of bishops propose dismantling the Church's teaching on marriage, that a lay person is too stupid and incompetent to open their mouth and state that God's teaching still holds even if bishops and cardinals give it up?


    You can defend "The Faith" all you want. That means defending what the Church holds to be true, by the way.

    But when the CHURCH is having a conversation and the Pope is eliciting opinions from theologians, I can't possibly see what you have to contribute. Oh, sure, you're part of the Church as the Body of Christ, and if you WORK in the Church, you are even part of the "institutional Church," too.

    But when you stack your credentials against those of the Holy Father and all of those Cardinals on either side that you mentioned, do you really think you know as well or better than any of them?

    We will have this conversation, and the Holy Father will ratify and promulgate whatever he needs to and chooses to by his lawful authority. And then, I would expect you to defend THAT, whatever it is - as Church teaching.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    People should set their expectations properly. Processes and procedures can be changed; the *teaching* of indissolubility cannot be changed: it's a dogma. It is recognized by Pope Francis and by everyone from Cdl. Burke to Cdl. Kasper. Whatever the Pope adopts in the wake of the synod process, no one should expect that it will be new teaching.