Choir doesn't like singing often
  • My Schola started two years ago and I have been trying to build it up since then. We started with singing all the Propers IN - CO and including one hymn or easy piece of polyphony. We practiced about once every other week and sang for every Holyday of Obligation and other special Masses (Candlemas, Holy Week, etc.). Before then, there was no choir, the choir that we had dissolved during COVID. So I was building a parish choir when there was no other.

    This year I have tried to make them more of a regular parish choir and sing about 2 times per month. I am receiving pushback about practicing weekly and singing often. They say that weekly practices and the amount of music we are learning is too much. Is singing 16 times per year really too much?

    This is how many times we are singing:
    Aug - 2 Masses
    Sep - 2 Masses and Solemn Vespers
    Oct - 1 Mass
    Nov - 3 Masses
    Dec - 2 Masses and Caroling
    Jan - 0 Masses - Break
    Feb - 0 Masses
    Mar - 3 Masses (+1 optional Mass)
    Apr - 0 Masses
    May - 2 Masses
    Jun - Break
    Jul - Break

    They have a relatively easy time with chant, but chant is not their favorite. So I include one piece of polyphony and one SATB hymn per time we sing to appease them.

    Am I doing too much, or is this just a classic case of parish aversion to change?
  • If I joined a parish choir I would expect to sing every Sunday, solemnity, Ash Wednesday, the Triduum, and anything else that comes up. I would also expect weekly rehearsals at the minimum as well as extra longer rehearsals during Lent and Advent. Furthermore, I would expect to be expected to practice at home and be prepared to rehearse at rehearsal.

    Back when I was in my Latin Mass Choir and schola there were weeks where I spent more time at church than at home because of choir.

    By having more frequent rehearsals and singing more frequently at Mass, it will make it easier and faster to learn more repertoire in the long run because it will always be fresh in their memory.
  • probe
    Posts: 258
    Amateur singers would surely need plenty of rehearsals to cope with SATB polyphony, though hymns should be easier. Do they have rehearsal aids to practice at home? Is there a core of interested singers who want to sing any chance they get?

    If they have to travel to week evening rehearsals, could you try offering alternate weekday and Sunday-after-Mass rehearsals if there is at least an hour's gap between Masses? I assume they are always present at Mass, so not singing half the time does look odd. What happens when they don't sing as a group, does an organist lead the congregation hymns and they sing as part of the congregation?
    If a significant number are working, they will only be available on Sundays, so not for example the Triduum.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,834

    If they have to travel to week evening rehearsals, could you try offering alternate weekday and Sunday-after-Mass rehearsals if there is at least an hour's gap between Masses


    A nonstarter for families who need regularity and for those who expect to have a social life. I’d skip an after Mass rehearsal on principle if it was a regular occurrence: I want a separation from the liturgy and the next rehearsal, in addition to losing out significantly on social opportunities.


    If a significant number are working, they will only be available on Sundays, so not for example the Triduum.


    Lame. Take leave or make use of provisions for evening Masses.


    If I joined a parish choir I would expect to sing every Sunday, solemnity, Ash Wednesday, the Triduum, and anything else that comes up. I would also expect weekly rehearsals at the minimum as well as extra longer rehearsals during Lent and Advent. Furthermore, I would expect to be expected to practice at home and be prepared to rehearse at rehearsal.


    Yes. We are cutting back, probably, both schola-only and choral Masses, but we sing virtually every Sunday, holy day, most major feasts (I class/solemnity), and during Holy Week from the Assumption to June. (We never have Ash Wednesday, though I’d be fine with it at 6 AM the first point aside.)

    Rehearsals are at the same time, and ideally in the same place, on the same day, as well as before services (which for the section with the most volunteers alleviates some problems). We try to rehearse what we can with just male voices at schola practice. We make as many videos as possible.

    Ian, unfortunately your situation is not unusual in that volunteers are getting harder and harder to find, but this is an extreme case.
    Thanked by 2novusgordo tomjaw
  • People's lives are very busy. I encourage you to be thankful for their dedication and enjoy when are able to perform. I have been in parishes where this would have been like manna from heaven. It may change over time. You never know.
    Thanked by 2davido irishtenor
  • We sing every week when we are in season, so the schedule you've outlined seems beyond generous to me. I have two section leaders, while everyone else in the choir is volunteer.
    Thanked by 2novusgordo tomjaw
  • Quoth @Musicguy57:
    People's lives are very busy. I encourage you to be thankful for their dedication and enjoy when are able to perform. I have been in parishes where this would have been like manna from heaven. It may change over time. You never know.
    (leaving aside my objections to the term "perform" in a liturgical context)
    To a certain extent, I can see this applying to rehearsals outside of Mass. I would submit, however, that applying it to our participation in the liturgy itself represents a fundamental disorientation of our Christian identity. Participation in the sacred liturgy - and especially the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the "source and summit" of our Christian life - should be a matter of the highest priority in terms of our time and energy.

    The ambitious programme put forward by @SponsaChristi (and which I remember very well from my days singing at an FSSP apostolate) is likely something that would be impossible outside of somewhere like a cathedral or a traditionalist personal parish. In particular, if people's availability to rehearse or to practice independently during the week is limited, the music might need to be simplified to fit the available rehearsal time. But the very idea that a parish's choir would object to having sung Masses every Sunday throughout the year and that the pastor of the parish would allow their objections to stand would have me shaking the dust from my feet and leaving.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • By the way, AnimaVocis reminded me of a recent lecture that I heard by Horst Bucholtz (former DoM in Detroit). He observed the fact that in America ,choirs sing every Sunday, but in Europe they spend weeks preparing for important holy days. He argued that it would be better to have choirs sing less often but better prepared when they do. I found this very intriguing.
  • Choirs sing every Sunday at the European parishes I've been to.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • TCJ
    Posts: 1,072
    English and Spanish choirs sing pretty much year round, although the Spanish can cycle a bit so it's more like 3 out of every 4. No summer off. Youth choir sings up to 14 Masses a year, depending on ability.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,834
    Yeah and when they do take off it’s odd. St Mary’s in Sydney sings on the English model but takes Low Sunday off as a break. Understandable, but I’d take off the next two weeks instead and rotate among a small pool to ensure that the chant is offered. Ditto after Christmas.

    Episcopalians sing less somewhat per service compared to my parish, but we have less ambitious individual pieces. Their cathedral here preps six weeks ahead during the school year. Summers, two weeks.
  • @probe

    Do they have rehearsal aids to practice at home? Is there a core of interested singers who want to sing any chance they get?


    They have plenty of rehearsal aids, and some to most of them know how to pluck out their part on piano, at least for the polyphony. And I would like to think most of them enjoy singing, but maybe they just prefer a choir that they don't have to practice outside of rehearsal?

    Is easier music the solution? Little to no polyphony?
  • If I joined a parish choir I would expect to sing every Sunday, solemnity, Ash Wednesday, the Triduum, and anything else that comes up. I would also expect weekly rehearsals at the minimum as well as extra longer rehearsals during Lent and Advent.


    Agreed - and this is why I would not join a parish choir. (even with leaving out the part about practising at home).

    And if I'd joined what was billed as a special-occasion choir, and the director tried to change it into a regular parish choir, I'd be rather cross.

    Personally I'd be amenable to the arrangement laid out in the opening post - but only if it was done with consultation and agreement, not just music director's orders.

    But whether it's reasonable for the specific choir depends on the people involved, their relationship to the parish, and what other musical and personal commitments they have in their lives.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,834
    It’s a dictatorship, not a democracy.

    Our schola only sang once a month. Then someone became more available, and so they went from one high Mass with full propers and Rossini the rest of the time to introit, offertory, and communion in full. After covid, the capable volunteer did all five propers because he simply had the power to do so.

    Like, yeah, it turns out that it’s a lot easier to do a good thing more often even with a few bumps along the way versus trying to do it once or twice a month. He’s not even singing every month at the same frequency! That’s hard to sustain and to justify to the parish as a whole.
  • probe
    Posts: 258
    Re-reading, I can see that this started as a 'special occasion' choir and you want them to sing more often. I'm mindful of @MusicGuy57's 'be grateful' advice, you have a good starting point and you do have to negotiate from there on. My experience is limited, but I'm happy to express an opinion: 8-)

    Are all the members guaranteed to be present at the same Mass every Sunday? If not, then as @PaxMelodius says it'll be difficult to get people to change established family routines, some like Saturday Mass, some 8am Sunday Mass, some 10, some 12. It seems like the best you can do is announce that you would like to pick one Mass to sing at every Sunday, having agreed with the parish priest and celebrants about the amount of singing required and the style and content, and ask for volunteers to work to that level and see if you have enough to form a parish choir. I don't know the scope of your project - a simple Low Mass in a country church or a full scale bells-and-smells High Mass in a city cathedral?

    I can't see how anyone can sing even simple pieces together cleanly without rehearsal, so the second thing to agree is when a weekly rehearsal will suit. That will depend on how far people have to travel. Our chant choir rehearses for an hour on a weekday evening after 6:30pm Mass, the hymn choir rehearses for a half hour before 12 Mass. In our national chorus we rehearse 2.5hrs/week plus the occasional Saturday workshop and four times in orchestral concert week, so I'm more hardened to lots of rehearsal.

    At rehearsal, you discover how well they know the pieces and start singing when you have a secure programme, whether that is the four-hymn set, or the Kyriale & Propers chants, and a polyphonic piece for Communion. Repeat the same programme every Sunday until the next programme is secure. In my little small-town volunteer choir in Ireland with a few experienced singers to support the rest, we use the same programme of chant and a unison hymn for a month until next month's is ready, but you seem to be starting from a base of more musically trained people.

    As to whether easier polyphony is the answer, you have to talk to them. Do they like singing simpler music and more of it, or do they enjoy the challenge of a harder piece that needs lots of rehearsal before it's safe to sing in public?
  • It’s a dictatorship, not a democracy.


    True for the diocese, and for the parish (with appointed parish-priest as the dictator).

    Not true for a music-director / choir, unless the parish priest happens to be the directory. And even then, people can and will vote with their feet.
    Thanked by 2davido CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,834
    So, you have no choir!

    Now, of course you can foster a spirit of cooperation and goodwill, which goes both ways (I’ve been on the receiving end of not-nice behavior, and today I just sent an email that luckily was well received).

    but it’s still not like these people get a vote. The bickering and drama here are stupid. This schedule is tame, they already get five months off (practically six). I have every sympathy for Ian and practically none for anyone else.
  • Choirs need to sing every Sunday and holy day if they are to be seen as part and parcel of the sacred liturgy and not as "something extra" that's "nice to have" but "not necessary." Granted, it doesn't have to be the same choir week in and week out - perhaps SATB twice/month, then the men once/month and women once/month or some other subsections of the main choir, doing at least something on their own and not merely harmonizing hymns and the ordinary. The OP to me is more than generous, and I have zero sympathy whatsoever for anyone else there. If choirs are to be diligently fostered as the Church demands, they need to be present and clearly supported by the pastor.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,834
    Boom. I’m going to save this comment to my notes app; I’d go further and add something about weekly rehearsals as well (or at least 2-3 times a month depending on who is singing what when).
  • Granted, it doesn't have to be the same choir week in and week out


    Agree that the music programme needs to operate every week. I believe it needs to be year-round too: Jesus didn't take summers off.

    Two separate choirs, one choir with separate attendance requirements for sections or sub-sections - there are lots of options.

    They key is being HONEST with singers when you are recruiting them.
    Thanked by 2novusgordo davido
  • It doesn't even necessarily have to be that complex! I just tell my singers that, if you need to take a weekend off for whatever reason, that's fine - just send me an e-mail letting me know so I can plan accordingly. Likewise for Masses during the week: let me know who's available, and I'll plan around who we have.

    The point is: the music keeps going, week-in and week-out, regardless of who happens to be available on any given week.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,834
    I don’t think that transitioning to something different is fundamentally dishonest. That’s where it’s not a democracy, and obviously the pastor is (tacitly) approving this if the music program is set up with this schedule.
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 895
    I have been monitoring this discussion because it has similar issues to what I am facing at my own parish.

    I think this discussion may be focusing almost exclusively on commitment while overlooking repertoire, formation, and pastoral leadership.

    Sixteen Masses a year does not strike me as an excessive schedule. At the same time, the question is not simply how often a choir sings, but whether the repertoire, rehearsal expectations, and musical demands are aligned with the actual abilities of the singers.

    In many parish settings, expecting regular home practice from every volunteer singer is unrealistic. Most parish choirs are not made up of trained musicians. Some members will never become confident independent part-singers, regardless of the quality of rehearsal aids provided. That does not necessarily mean they lack commitment. It may simply mean the choir's repertoire and expectations need to be matched carefully to the singers available.

    Another factor is the distinction between a special-occasion choir and a regular parish choir. A group formed around occasional liturgies may not automatically embrace the commitments required of a weekly choir. That transition requires formation, recruitment, a clear vision, and support from pastoral leadership.

    More broadly, a parish's repertoire is just as important as its level of commitment. Choirs are sustained not only by rehearsal schedules, but by shared musical memory, accessible repertoire, patient formation, and a realistic understanding of volunteer singers. A choir that sings every week but cannot sustain its repertoire or retain its members is not necessarily healthier than a choir that grows more slowly but builds a lasting musical culture.

    I've written about these issues in more detail in A Parish Inheritance. Building a parish choir is not a single decision about frequency. It is an ongoing process involving repertoire, formation, pastoral leadership, and the long-term musical inheritance of the parish.

    A Parish Inheritance
    Thanked by 2probe novusgordo
  • novusgordo
    Posts: 49
    @Don9of11: I agree with most of what you wrote. There's only one point of significant disagreement.

    IMO one cannot build a healthy liturgical culture in a parish without sung Masses being a regular thing. At the very least, the principal parish Mass on every Sunday and day of precept should be a sung Mass, even if only a simple one. Sung Masses on special occasions can be useful for preserving the treasury of sacred music, but they don't build up the sense of the liturgy in the same way that regular sung liturgies do. For that reason, IMO the idea of a parish having a "special occasion" choir but not a choir or schola that sings weekly is deeply problematic - especially since the people in the "special occasion" choir are supposed to be going to Mass weekly anyway! But that's something that needs to be clearly communicated by the pastor of the parish, and backed up if necessary by his leadership authority over his parishioners.

    (That said, I've been fortunate enough not to end up in places where this was a serious issue, so perhaps I'm a little more inclined to take the idea of liturgical musicians exercising their office routinely for granted.)