When/where did the requiem Mass change?
  • AnimaVocis
    Posts: 238
    Honestly, where in any documents did the change of focus of the Requiem Mass change from praying for the departed soul to God, to all this expectation of heaven and canonization of the departed?

    Has the church formally changed her focus for the funeral Mass or is this a colloquially effected thing that has happened?
  • novusgordo
    Posts: 41
    IMO it's mostly colloquially-affected.

    Yes, the Missa pro defunctis saw massive changes in the 1970 Missal:
    • the singing of Alleluias, etc. based on the season;
    • the suppression of the Sequence, which is now used in the Office for the last weeks of ordinary time;
    • the greater variation of propers and of vestments permitted
    But both the actual texts and the actual rubrics emphasize hope rooted in Christ's sacrifice, not the "all dogs go to heaven" mentality so prevalent in modern Christian culture.

    IMO the bigger issue is not one specific to the funeral liturgy, but rather a general weakening of the Church's penitential discipline. To be fair, this was in response to a penitential culture than in many cases had become toxic, more about ticking off boxes than growing in holiness and virtue — but as is so often the case, the reformers let themselves swing on the devil's pendulum and massively over-corrected, and far too little has been done to remedy matters since.
  • Requiem Masses are still for the repose of the soul with the exception of infants (those under the age of reason). I am unsure if it is so with those who have disabilities that make them mentally below the age of reason and are thus not capable of committing actual sin. I was fairly certain the Church also included them as infants when deciding which Mass to say, but this became confusing when my Diocese posted a RIP on social media for an 11 year old autistic boy whose intellect was below that of a 5 year old. We don’t pray for the repose of the soul of baptized infants because they’re assumed to be in Heaven.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,115
    Vatican II (Sacrosanctum Concilium, 81) said that "The rite for the burial of the dead should express more clearly the paschal character of Christian death, and should correspond more closely to the circumstances and traditions found in various regions. This holds good also for the liturgical color to be used."

    Here's Archbishop Bugnini's own commentary the changes to the funeral rite:
    "The Introduction [to the new rite] emphasizes the point that a Christian funeral is a celebration of the paschal mystery of Christ as accomplished in his faithful followers. The need to bring this out was one of the main concerns guiding the reformers.

    "To this end they drew from the treasury of euchological tradition texts that would best express this aspect of funerals. At the same time, they got rid of texts that smacked of a negative spirituality inherited from the Middle Ages. Thus they removed such familiar and even beloved texts as the Libera me, Domine, the Dies irae, and others that overemphasized judgment, fear, and despair. These they replaced with texts urging Christian hope and giving more effective expression to faith in the resurrection.

    "These changes explain the closer and more organic connection between the funeral and the Eucharistic celebration in the new rite, the restoration of the Alleluia, and the abandonment of the color black for another, which, in the judgment of episcopal conferences, will inspire a calmer approach to sorrow and suggest a hope that is illuminated by the paschal mystery" (Bugnini, The Reform of the Liturgy, pp. 773-74).
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 3,012
    At a funeral last month I was feeling a tiny bit sheepish about being dressed in a dark weekday shirt while the congregation joined us in a rousing "Alleluia". Before reading the Gospel however, our white-robed presider asked everyone to sit first while he sang "Absolve", covering all the bases.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,760
    The NO doesn’t allow the tract outside of Lent. Also, the propers belonging to the priest, that this, the orations, have been completely revised such that much like those of other Masses, sin, death, and our eternal fate are obscured.


    But both the actual texts and the actual rubrics emphasize hope rooted in Christ's sacrifice, not the "all dogs go to heaven" mentality so prevalent in modern Christian culture.


    So with respect to my comment: except for that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

    The office of the dead does maintain some traditional texts, but many others are suppressed, and the Libera me is gone from the funeral. Also, the absolution at the catafalque is suppressed, and they got hives about calling it an absolution even at funerals. Sigh.
    Thanked by 1dad29
  • I am willing to be corrected, and I know this has been discussed in other places, but I have yet to be convinced that the Dies Irae is suppressed for the novus ordo. There are no positive acts of suppression, and the lack of the sequence in current liturgical books is not sufficient to say it is banned. All of the traditional propers including the libera me can be used with the current missal, as long as the sequence is in the N.O. spot before the alleluia, using alius captus option where relevant for the gradual.
    Thanked by 2davido ServiamScores
  • davido
    Posts: 1,236
    Liam is of course correct. With the liberality of a tradition friendly priest, it could be as he says.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,760
    lol, yes it is. Omission is suppression in this case. The Sequence is not mentioned, neither in the lectionary, nor in the Graduale Romanum, nor in the Ordo Cantus Missæ. The whole reason for incorporating the Dies Iræ ad libitum in the office was to keep it around in some way; Cardinal Bartolucci was always surprised when asked to sing the Sequence at funerals in Rome, as other cardinals did not understand the depth of the changes.

    Of course, you can do whatever you want, and I don't care if you do the real Libera Me, but I do think that there's an integrity in doing the rubrics as they're written, especially if you only do, in your current situation the NO*: it's one thing to decide that Bugnini's various replies saying to do anything but the old way aren't especially binding because Notitiæ isn't that authoritiative, but it's just goofy to say that the Sequence isn't suppressed. This responsory is not one of the ones given in the Solesmes gradual and in the OCM for the final commendation. Should it be? Yes, but that's not the question.

    The Dies Iræ with the Alleluia is also an abomination: the whole point is that ends on the "Amen" and is not followed by "Alleluia" like the other sequences (whether or not you actually do them the way that they were always done, hence the dang name, or per the rubrics).

    @chonak translated the Prætonanda to the OCM a few years ago. I don't see a general permission to use any old proper, even if I don't really care. Shoot, we use the TLM propers regardless, but we do 1, maybe 2 NO sung Masses a year, and I really hope that I never have to do them again as soon as that's allowed again — I do think that this is unique, and I don't recommend it!
    Thanked by 1novusgordo
  • Agree to disagree. The Dies Irae is a towering part of our western liturgical heritage. There is no document that says to stop doing it; that should carry more weight than the misbegotten intentions of Bugnini et al, who, for whatever reason, forgot to explicitly say to stop doing it. Those of us who are actively trying to preserve the penitential character of the Requiem, for which AnimaVocis pines, should have no qualms about exploiting the optionality of the books to do so. The traditional option is to do the traditional text, not the so-called first option given.

    As far as the Libera Me goes, the books explicitly state "or another song" can be sung for the Final Commendation. This is not grasping at straws. Singing the responsory which has been sung at roughly this point in the liturgy for hundreds of years is likely the most appropriate "or-another-song" that could possibly be sung.

    Agree that singing the alleluia with the Dies Irae is weird, but not as weird as dropping the sequence all together.

    Those of us that believe in a hermeneutic of continuity need to fight for our liturgical inheritance
  • novusgordo
    Posts: 41
    Quoth @liampmcdonough:
    The Dies Irae is a towering part of our western liturgical heritage. There is no document that says to stop doing it; that should carry more weight than the misbegotten intentions of Bugnini et al, who, for whatever reason, forgot to explicitly say to stop doing it.
    The propers in the liturgical books don't work that way though. The occasions on which sequences are to be sung are clearly indicated in the Missal; since no sequence is given for the Mass for the Dead, either in the Missal itself or in Ordo cantus Missæ, a sequence may not licitly be sung. The fact that there was a sequence in the usus antiquior doesn't change that fact.

    (Obviously, that doesn't apply to the final commendation, where the rubrics explicitly allow the freedom to use other suitable chants. +Bugnini's comments in Notitiæ would seem to preclude the Libera me, but as @MatthewRoth pointed out, those comments have little to no real weight of authority behind them.)
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,115
    the change of focus of the Requiem Mass change from praying for the departed soul to God, to all this expectation of heaven and canonization of the departed?

    As far as changes in the liturgy itself goes there are a few which spring to mind:

    * Readings can be chosen that suggest or can be interpreted to say that the deceased is already in heaven. In particular, a very popular reading (Wisdom 3:1-9) begins: "The souls of the just are in the hand of God and no torment shall touch them." The gospel of the Beatitudes (Matthew 5:1-12) suggests that the deceased was holy and worthy of heaven; as it does when read on the feast of All Saints. (The reading from Wisdom was also traditionally read on feasts of the saints, not at a Requiem.)

    * The proper chants pray for the deceased, but as these are optional other chants and songs can be chosen that never mention prayer for the dead. Other prayers for the dead were changed or omitted: the Agnus Dei was changed from " . . . grant them rest . . grant them eternal rest" to the usual ". . . have mercy on us . . grant us peace," and the final the "Requiescant in pace" was omitted.

    * The prayers of final commendation ("Before we go out separate ways . . ") seems to speak of the future meeting in heaven with the deceased as a certainty - "One day we shall joyfully greet him/her again . . . "

    * If a eulogy is done (and it is officially allowed in the rubrics), it is rarely put in terms of praying for the deceased.

    So a Mass for the Dead (new rite) can be (and often is) said with very little emphasis on praying for the dead. Part of this may be because of customs quite foreign to the traditional understanding of the Requiem liturgy (it's a "Celebration of Life!"), but it's also on account of the official changes and options.
  • davido
    Posts: 1,236
    I think there is a case to be made that sequences not found in the Graduale can be included in the Mass.
    The Roman Church never had much time for sequences, but why does that mean the whole rest of the Catholic world has to be in such a hurry to get out of church?
    The historic sequences are never heretical (nor are the Kyrie tropes).
    The Roman Church preserves the model in the current liturgical books, so the sequence per se is not condemned. (Note that Kyrie tropes are also back in)
    With all the fluff that is added to Masses (children’s liturgy of the word songs, etc) why can’t the weight of tradition be on the side of singing a sequence?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,760
    well: I think that there's a bit of a 50-50 on whether another suitable chant covers a proper that the reformers and even Solesmes seemed to suppress. I don't care, but maybe someone else does.

    Kyrie tropes per se are not back in. You can't just do anything with form C!

    in fact, we got the Justorum animæ at the offertory today in the traditional Mass…it's hardly fit for a funeral.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,244
    using alius captus option


    You hit the jackpot here, as this is exactly what the Rev. Dr. Robert Skeris (RIP) suggested in order to use the Dies Irae during the Mass for the Dead. (But I think it's "alius aptus"...other appropriate.......
  • I think it would be impermissible to add it as a sequence between the gradual/responsory and alleluia, since the rubrics are clear about when sequences may or must be done, but alius cantus aptus clearly allows for its use elsewhere in the mass.
  • If a eulogy is done (and it is officially allowed in the rubrics), it is rarely put in terms of praying for the deceased.

    Eulogies are absolutely not allowed in the rubrics.

    According to the GIRM (both Canadian and US):
    382. At Funeral Masses there should usually be a short Homily, but to the exclusion of a funeral eulogy of any kind.

    Eulogies are a liturgical abuse, as is playing secular music, even if it is that “Turn, Turn, Turn” song based on that Ecclesiasticus reading that’s read at pretty much every funeral. The place for eulogies (and secular music) is at the luncheon afterwards or at the wake.
  • davido
    Posts: 1,236
    I’ve heard lots of improvised form C’s
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,115
    @SponsaChristi -Thanks for the correction.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,289
    There is no Sequence in the 1970 Requiem. I see no warrant for shoehorning a long liturgical action in before the Alleluia, especially THAT action. ("Amen...oh, just kidding about that judgement stuff.")

    There is also nothing preventing one from using the Dies Irae as a Communion motet.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,709
    Or as an Offertory motet.

    A brief "remembrance" of the faith life of deceased may be given after the post-communion prayer. That said, many pastors seem to have shifted such remarks being offered before the Mass proper has begun. (Basically, priests and/or bereavement committees instruct people that eulogies are suited to visitations and/or collations after Mass/interment, not Mass itself). The boom was lowered against eulogies in Boston in the '90s.
  • A brief "remembrance" of the faith life of deceased may be given after the post-communion prayer.

    That’s not the same as a eulogy. Given that people don’t understand the difference, even that’s being forbidden by dioceses and moved to either the vigil or the luncheon in the hall.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,709
    Right. Hence the precaution of more pastors not allowing remarks within the Mass proper anymore.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,266
    Considering the tone and content (and length) of the Dies irae, and the purpose of song in the Novus rite and its funeral liturgy especially at the Offertory and Communion, not to mention the (older) notion of “motet”, I reckon that the Dies irae is not congruus actioni.
  • Right. Hence the precaution of more pastors not allowing remarks within the Mass proper anymore.

    I feel bad for saying this, but I actually appreciate the discouragement and not having the pressure and expectation of having to write a eulogy and get up there and eulogize. I have no issues with public speaking, but I hate being expected to do stuff at funerals and the guilt trip that follows from priests and family about “being selfish” by declining to “actively participate” in funerals, especially for something completely unnecessary such as being an EMHC.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,709
    I myself have elevated the issue that permission==>pressure to perform. Too many people feeling forced by the practical existence of permission to get up in front of a congregation to speak in a way that would be much gentler in the context of a visitation or collation. (I think of friends who also got saddled with offering remarks from other family members who did not want to shoulder that burden, but felt compelled to prepare remarks). Awful, awful, awful.

    For my late mother in 2014, then my late father in 2017, I told their parish curate and bereavement committee to the following effect "We just mourners who want to pray and have the usual prayers and sacrifice offered for the deceased. We have no wish to bear the burden of offering remarks in addition to that." Which the first time came as something of a surprise to them. Besides my parents outlived almost everyone else they knew other than their adult children (the one grandchild being institutionalized across the country); so there were fewer mourners than parish staff in a church that seats many hundreds of people; offering remarks to a mostly empty space would have been an additional cruelty.

    It reminds me - in that pervasive "oh, we never thought of that" mindless way of Catholic parish life (which, according to testimony of my own forbears, also existed well before V2, just dressed up in pieties designed to silence objections) - of preachers who gather children around them and earnestly tell them that God loves them just like their parents love them; preachers who apparently lose any sense of how monstrous the lives of children can be in their own families and homes.
  • On the funeral emphasis, the choice of propers (readings and music) and the focus of the preaching is the primary place that things have drifted.

    On the sequence question, if I were planning my own funeral I might consider asking for it to be used as meditation/prelude before the liturgy begins, perhaps in English for sake of congregational comprehension.

    @MatthewRoth I don't think I am picking up what you are intending with this:
    "Kyrie tropes per se are not back in. You can't just do anything with form C!"
  • GIRM The Kyrie, Eleison

    52. After the Penitential Act, the Kyrie, eleison (Lord, have mercy), is always begun, unless it has already been part of the Penitential Act. Since it is a chant by which the faithful acclaim the Lord and implore his mercy, it is usually executed by everyone, that is to say, with the people and the choir or cantor taking part in it.

    Each acclamation is usually pronounced twice, though it is not to be excluded that it be repeated several times, by reason of the character of the various languages, as well as of the artistry of the music or of other circumstances. When the Kyrie is sung as a part of the Penitential Act, a “trope” precedes each acclamation.
  • AnimaVocis
    Posts: 238
    One will notice that on page 518 of the Roman Missal (US) that the "troped" Kyrie has this instruction:

    The Priest, or a Deacon or another minister, then says the following or other invocation with Kyrie, eleison (Lord, have mercy).

    Then, the appendix VI, pages 1474-1480 is subtitled "Sample Invocations" with the instruction:

    The Priest, or a Deacon or another minister, then may use one of the following invocations with Kyrie, eleison (Lord, have mercy).

    I would believe, with the syntax and use of the word "may' in the latter instruction, combined with the title of "sample", indicates that one could indeed use another prepared, or even ad hoc, invocations. As such, it would make far more sense to use a simplified version of the historic tropes.

    Just a thought.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,760
    I think that what it is actually saying is use these, or do something similar. It is not saying that you can use the tropes, which have absolutely nothing to do with the form that is in the missal. Sure people do all sorts of nonsense, but the book is right there. No one’s forcing them to do it, and even if you could, those people won’t be convinced anyway.

    Also, I agree with Andrew that the Dies Irae is incongruous with the liturgical action.
  • AnimaVocis
    Posts: 238
    Well, if we are going to use these "tropes" (intercessions, really).... Couldn't one base them from the ideas of the historical tropes? (See below)

    Full (translated) troped text, Kyrie De Angelis:

    Lord, eternal King of lofty power, creator of all, have mercy.
    Lord, the entire multitude of the globe praises thee, worthy and merciful, have mercy.
    Lord, behold now the people here desiring gifts, have mercy.
    Christ, mayest thou now keep us from our ills, founder of the world, have mercy.
    Christ, having triumphed over pestilence, taking up these our sins, have mercy.
    Christ, who by thy worthy blood savest us from the evil enemy, have mercy.
    Lord, make the clergy sing a true hymn of the heart to thee, may they live for aye, borne by the spirit, a brilliant countenance, have mercy.
    Lord, now, King of the wretched peoples, behold the prayers, O righteous flower of flowers and fount of good things, cleanse our guilt, have mercy.
    Lord, take us up anew, lead the way, we beseech thee from the heart, by which we might have the strength to climb up and live the way, have mercy.


    To where it could potentially become the following 3 options:

    1
    You are eternal King and Creator of all - Lord, Have Mercy.
    The entire globe (earth?) praises you, who are worthy and merciful - Christ, Have Mercy.
    You behold now the people here gathered, desiring your gifts - Lord, Have Mercy.

    2
    You are founder of the world, may you now keep us from our ills - Lord, Have Mercy.
    You took up our sins, and triumphed over pestilence - Christ, Have Mercy.
    By your worthy Blood, save us from the evil enemy - Lord Have Mercy

    3
    Make the clergy sing a true hymn of the heart to you as you recreate them in the spirit - Lord, Have Mercy.
    O Righteous flower of flowers and fount of all good things, cleanse our guilt - Christ, Have Mercy.
    Take us up anew and lead our way, so that we may live by your strength and by your statutes - Lord, Have Mercy.


    By no means are these the most poetic rendition of these texts, but it's just a though experiment to say that, if someone can make something up, why not also have the option to do something like this, especially when you have clergy that are amenable to it???
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 3,354
    t's just a though experiment to say that, if someone can make something up, why not also have the option to do something like this
    I once had someone earnestly say to me that under alius cantus aptus (which I jokingly tell my friends should have really been written, ONLIUS cantus (in)aptus...) it is perfectly licit to chant a hymn in place of a proper, but it is NOT licit (so they say) to chant the Palmer Burgess propers because the translations are not "official".

    It seems to me that anything that is firmly rooted in actual tradition, however imperfect it may be, would qualify under alius cantus aptus, even when those things are modern renditions of the old—and it stands to reason that these things would be preferable to eschewing them away all together.

    To bring it home in context: if tropes are permitted (which, indeed, they are) then using historic texts as the bases for such tropes seems entirely appropriate (and indeed, preferable) IMHO. Hermeneutic of continuity and all that...
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,760
    I mean, yeah. Right now that’s the rule, whether we like it or not. (I don’t really support vernacular chant, and as Meloche has reminded us…be patient.)

    Mutatis mutandis, tropes are allowed, but the rubrics are pretty clear in what the expectations are IMHO.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,701
    Indeed the rubric in the missal is clear Invocations naming the gracious works of the Lord may be made, as in the example below,
    Nothing to suggest a penitential character! Just one of the flaws in liturgy design by committee. As ICEL suggested in 1988, the troped form should moved, and would better used when the Gloria is not used.
  • @MatthewRoth
    Ah, I think I see what you mean and why I was confused. In common liturgical parlance form C of the penitential act is almost universally called informally the "troped Kyrie" or the "Kyrie with tropes", but you are using trope with a different meaning.

    Also, I personally am very much a fan of chant in English/vernacular, and I view the lack of vernacular versions of the chants upon the launch of the Novus Ordo as one of the unfortunate aspects of the liturgical reform. Had singable propers been available on day one along with the missal and lectionary I think it would have helped avoid much that went wrong.

    @ServiamScores
    If your diocesan bishop approves it for liturgical use, even as a sort of hymn, then yes you could use some alternative translation of the propers. If no one has approved it, then in theory you can't. If it is contained in a hymnal or missal published in the USA, and that hymnal/missal has the approval of the bishop of the place it is published, then it could be used throughout the USA, thanks to the weird delegation of approval rule. Individual bishops can't approve official translations of liturgical texts, but they could approve a... lets call it a "paraphrase" of a liturgical text to be set to music as another form of song, you just couldn't claim that it is THE official/authentic translation of the Latin source.

    @a_f_hawkins
    Somewhere in this I think the sort of Byzantine understanding of the Kyrie got mixed up in things, as there is a Byzantine view of the Kyrie as more about expectant hope / trust / faith rather than penitential. I have often made up some rather silly examples when trying to demonstrate to deacons how to intone these "Lord, you are so very big, Lord have mercy". I guess it could be taken as a sort of invoking the works of the Lord so as to instill a proper respect / fear of the Lord. That could be taken some interesting directions. "Lord, you cursed the fig tree and it withered and died, Lord have mercy. Lord, you dashed their little ones against the rocks... Lord you cursed the Egyptians... Lord you cast Satan and the fallen angels into eternal hell... Lord you sit enthroned in judgement... Lord, vengeance belongs to you alone... etc." Some of the gracious works of the Lord are right terrifying.

  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,701
    StephenMatthew within discussion of liturgical texts 'tropes' has been used to refer to phrases interpolated into the standard official text. Many examples of interpolations into the Gloria and Creed exist, but the most well-known are those in the Kyrie which indeed give the tunes their standard names., such as Kyrie fons bonitatis.
    As to the meaning of eleos, it is used in the NT to translate chesed.
    Eleos (ἔλεος) is an ancient Greek word that means mercy, pity, or compassion. It describes a deep feeling of kindness or goodwill toward people who are suffering or in need, paired with an active desire to help them.
    Chesed (חֶסֶד) is a Hebrew word that translates to "loving-kindness," "mercy," or "steadfast love". It describes active, loyal, and unselfish love and kindness between people, or God's devoted grace and covenant faithfulness toward humanity.
    Thanked by 1Paul F. Ford
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 3,354
    Also, I personally am very much a fan of chant in English/vernacular, and I view the lack of vernacular versions of the chants upon the launch of the Novus Ordo as one of the unfortunate aspects of the liturgical reform. Had singable propers been available on day one along with the missal and lectionary I think it would have helped avoid much that went wrong.
    Indeed. The rollout was so very botched. The lack of appropriate resources (along with the pernicious lie that *everything* was supposed to be [exclusively] in the vernacular set a precedent that has taken 6 decades to correct.

    All of this is partly why I marvel at Marier's hymnal; I really think it is the closest thing to the vision of the council that I have found yet. He clearly actually read the documents and labored to implement them in a sensitive and congruous way that aligned with what had come before. It is so staunchly different from anything else produced at that period. Imagine what things could have been like in America if his hymnal had become the standard rather than what we got.

    ---
    If your diocesan bishop approves it for liturgical use, even as a sort of hymn, then yes you could use some alternative translation of the propers. If no one has approved it, then in theory you can't.
    This is exactly what I'm talking about. It boggles my mind how we can think it's "wrong" to chant literal vernacular propers but it's ok to sing Kumbaya My Lord instead. I don't know how to even respond to such arguments as they seem perfectly absurd to me.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,709
    All of this is partly why I marvel at Marier's hymnal; I really think it is the closest thing to the vision of the council that I have found yet. He clearly actually read the documents and labored to implement them in a sensitive and congruous way that aligned with what had come before. It is so staunchly different from anything else produced at that period. Imagine what things could have been like in America if his hymnal had become the standard rather than what we got.


    Dr Marier had been preparing for the moment for years; there was no way he was going to put down his toys and walk away. He had been parish organist since 1934, and working through aspects of the liturgical movement; when Mediator Dei was issued in 1947, Dr Marier (with the strong support of his pastor, Msgr Hickey), set to work over years. He edited the St Pius X Hymnal, and compiled Cantus Populi in 1963 (I have both choral editions, as well as of what follows); the first edition of Hymns, Psalms & Spiritual Canticles came out in 1975 (the pew edition of which I remember in the pews when I arrived at St Paul's), and the second edition in 1983. It was a long evolution combining scholarship, curiosity, patience, ingenuity, active pastoral and congregational engagement, learning and profiting from experience and a willingness to reconsider and revise.

    A number of his settings of the vernacular Order of Mass were lucid and lovely; I am saddened that they were not appreciated by new people in authority who should have appreciated their worth but did not because they were strangers to the parish praxis and valued their own desiderata over that. Then again, under Dr Marier and his immediate successors, most of the Mass (other than the lections and Eucharistic Prayer, other than on occasion) was sung, priest and people. Everyone did that work, together. It was not a solo magisterial effort controlled entirely from on high, but relied not only on scholarly and technical skills, but also people- and Spirit-skills. (Not the work of people who want nearly total command but who do not relish dealing with all manner of people all the time.)

    People imagine St Paul's as the Harvard parish (while true, Harvard people also populate St Peter's and other adjoining parishes), but it's been much more than that: (1) before Harvard bought out the lower lying (used to be flood plain...) riverside blocks along the Charles to build its upper class houses, that was a largely blue-collar Catholic working class area of multi-family homes (again...flood plain), and many of those families tried to stay with St Paul's years, even decades, after their displacement - though, overall, Harvard basically chopped 1/3 of the parishioner base away when it redeveloped that land; (2) St Paul's attracted and attracts a lot of MIT* staff and students, even though MIT had its own Catholic chaplaincy, and (3) of course it attracted and attracts a broad swath of regulars from all over the area.

    * Imagine having the hearts of Oxford U and Cambridge U 1.5 miles apart...Cambridge, Massachusetts is not just any college town.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,760
    HPSC has a lot of service music that should be in a separate volume. And it should have hymns in a more conventional order. But apparently Marier got a bug similar to thqt affecting the H1982 (no titles and an index that is insufficient: I rely on web resources for the metrical index of the H1982).

    I still both, but it’s annoying.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,709
    FWIW, the hymn order worked perfectly fine in practice. Hymn boards were used, but if your line of sight was blocked by a column, alphabetical was reasonably ... practical for someone in the pew. (For much of the year outside Advent/Xmas/Lent/Easter, a seasonal+topical grouping of hymns is not especially helpful to the PIPs.)
  • francis
    Posts: 11,399
    wow...
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,701
    The rollout was so very botched.

    Indeed, however it seems to me a tribute to Bugnini's organizing genius that we got even that. Later revisers managed to produce a missal in 2002 which required reissuing in corrected form in 2008 just to remove errors. ++Roche's assertion that we have what VII intended is ridiculous.
  • francis
    Posts: 11,399
    Thought I would do a search on this topic.

    Our good friend Dr. K wrote about this very issue... not so much about what can be included in the NO, but how the funeral rite was changed.

    https://www.traditionsanity.com/p/not-praying-for-departed-souls-the
    Thanked by 2tomjaw rich_enough
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,760
    Liam, to an extent I agree, but the problem is that the rest is so cluttered in hindsight, and of course, Advent and Christmas come first, and Christmas and Easter have lots of people who, at least in the past, might kind of follow if they can figure it out.

    All of these seasons have both fan favorites and obscure gems (we hope) that where alphabetical order may help…if you properly catch the title.

    But having a paper copy for research and planning purposes would frustrate me for the same reason. It is compounded by the PDF being the only source.

    And that’s why I rag on the H1982 not having titles. It’s not helpful!
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,709
    Matthew

    I get that. The best solution IMO is front subsections of the hymns section for Advent/Xmas/Lent/Eastertide, and then alphabetical for the rest.
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,760
    in fact that's how my own list is arranged, with some breakouts (I like having a separate list for feasts and for Marian hymns).
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,709
    Btw, Matthew, do you have the 61 pp of indexes (pp 1008-1068) of the 1983 edition of HPSC?