Can Agnus Dei from Requiem in EF be used in OF?
  • Ted
    Posts: 217
    HI:
    Would anyone know if there would be a problem with the choir singing in Latin the Agnus Dei of the Mass for the Dead from the 1962 Missal during a Novus Ordo Mass on All Souls Day? The Requiem Mass since at least Trent had special words for the Agnus Dei, but these do not appear in the Novus Ordo texts.

    Thanks in advace,
    Ted K
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    I was just speaking to a dear friend about this the other day. I am wondering the same thing.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,795
    I would say no, but I won't tell on you if you do it!
  • Ted
    Posts: 217
    More on this at:

    http://musicasacra.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1000&page=1
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,510
    Interesting discussion there and here...I'd say, if it is the choir, sing it. If the Congregation is singing the Agnus Dei, don't....

    It is not that the singing of it by the congregation would be wrong, but it would bring undue attention to the discrepancy between those in teh congregation singing it right from the page, and wrong from memory....
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    A lot of folks here subscribe to the theory of "Say the Black. Do the Red." To violate that now because we think that there is a better way is to do the exact same thing others have done in the course of "improving" things. I would say that you should select one form or the other of the Mass, but not get into a "mix and match" liturgy.
    Thanked by 3Andrew Motyka ian_udell novusgordo
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    I agree, Priorstf, but I guess my question is, has the "requiescant in pace" been officially abrogated?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,304
    For what it's worth, "dona eis requiem" isn't listed as an option in the 2002 Missale Romanum. If it were allowed, where would the issue have been dealt with? Notitiae?
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,016
    It is a sad state of affairs! While I personally prefer it, I do believe it would be wrong. The problem is not with the Agnus Dei, but with the entire Rite of Christian Burial as we have it today. The "Requiem" Mass is basically no longer offered "for" the departed, but for those living, gathered at that time and place. And the goal is evidently to transcend (like we are supposed to at every Mass!) our here and now, and celebrate the rising up on the last day - TODAY! I do not agree with this emphasis. But I will say that I still prefer to play the organ for any funeral more than any wedding! But for me, please pray FOR me when I die. If not an EF Requiem, then at least cart me off to an Anglican Use parish.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen eboydston1 davido
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,548
    I'd love to, but I won't. Same dilemma as at every funeral.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    Steve Collins says ...
    "...then at least cart me off to an Anglican Use parish."

    to which the only response must be ...

    "Oh, put him on the cart."
    "I'm not dead yet!"
    Thanked by 2ClergetKubisz novusgordo
  • iustum_est
    Posts: 1
    Hello, world! This is my first post. Been lurking on these forums for a long time. I'm happy to be here.

    I was simultaneously so elated to discover the traditional form of the Agnus Dei for the Requiem Mass and devastated to learn that it is not prescribed to pray 'dona eis requiem (sempiternam).' After looking over many of the other posts and sources about this, I think I agree with those who say that it cannot be done, at least not licitly/liturgically (if I'm using that term right?) though the Mass itself is still valid and you can still add on those words from the older form devotionally.

    Perhaps instead, though, one can alter the chant for 'dona nobis pacem' to include the notes that would've been sung for 'sempiternam'?

    Here are the other posts that I was looking through:
    - All Souls', Requiem Mass, and the 1974 Graduale Romanum: https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/1000/x&page=1
    - Agnus Dei at OF masses for the dead: https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/5581/agnus-dei-at-of-masses-for-the-dead/p1
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,723
    No, do not do that.
    Thanked by 1SponsaChristi
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 803
    There can’t be a double standard when it comes to “Say the black; do the red.” Lead by example.
    Page 22 has the same chant melody, but the correct words for the current missal.
    https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/uploads/2008/10/Jubilate Deo 1dot02.pdf
  • SicutCervus4226
    Posts: 1
    Greetings to all of you in Christ. With all possible respect to the high caliber of sacred musicians here, this imagined prohibition of crossover between Novus & Vetus ordinaries during funerals/All Souls/Requiems is utterly absurd. Latin is still normative in the Roman rite of any stripe, even if no one in authority likes to admit it…or permit it. I’ve heard sempiternam done at Novus funerals—even sung it for one myself! No repercussions whatsoever—it was very much welcomed by all!! All depends on local attitudes, far as I can tell. I love it so much, I have actually requested that the sempiternam be used when my time comes, despite in all likelihood the Novus still dominating the liturgical landscape by then. Don’t get me wrong, I have an intense devotion to the Mass of the Ages, but the Requiem as a liturgical moment—where’s the sure & certain hope musically in the Resurrection at the last day? Give me all the reverence, sure, but not that. Simply my 1st $0.02.
    Thanked by 2oldhymns Roborgelmeister
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,698
    Thirsty Deer

    You discuss your observed practice, but your comment fails to prove that the "prohibition" is merely "imagined. Instead, your comment only proves that it is ignored in places, which is rather different.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,698
    Just noticed that the Ordinariate DW:the Missal p652 says of the Agnus Dei
    At Masses for the Dead, the petitions are grant them rest (twice) and grant them rest everlasting.
    [But note the caution on p22 that the elements of this form are NOT interchangeable with those of the Roman Missal]
    Thanked by 1ian_udell
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,109
    Unfortunately that means you can't sing the Agnus Dei from any setting composed before 1970 at an OF Requiem (unless you can somehow fit the new words to the old music?). Evidently the reformers never thought of that.
    Thanked by 1Jeffrey Quick
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 3,329
    I used the traditional ending once at our mass for deceased clergy and religious and the bishop told me I shouldn't do it again, as it's not provided for in the novus ordo. He's a very sharp man and competent rubricist, so I don't doubt him.
    Thanked by 3Liam CHGiffen SponsaChristi
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,275
    This discussion is the most recent living example of the hermeneutic of rupture. Centuries of usage and one document breaks the continuity. And now we know that continuity means nothing in the Novus Ordo. As for me, I will use the old ending. My rationale, despite the prohibition is that continuity is more important than rubricism. And the problem is a small one when you consider that many of us now use the Dies Irae in the NO funeral rite. Am I living dangerously? Probably, but I am at the end of my career and don't really care. Hearing the stupid commentaries of ill formed old priests who prove their ignorance remind me that BXVI was right about the hermeneutic of rupture and the hermeneutic of continuity.
    Thanked by 3oldhymns tomjaw davido
Add a Comment