Agnus Dei at OF masses for the dead
  • jc_saulnier
    Posts: 2
    I was wondering if it is permissible to sing the EF Agnus Dei (i.e. with the invocation donna eis requiem, etc) at OF masses for the dead. This topic was previously discussed in this forum, and the answer seemed to be negative.

    However, the current French language missal has the rubric "#80Aux messes des défunts, on peut aussi dire : ... donne-leur repos" immediately following the Agnus Dei. The translation is, "At funeral masses, one can also say: ... grant them rest." I have not found this anywhere in the English Sacramentary. Either AELF added something to the editio typica or ICEL took something out. But which?

    I have not seen the new missal in any language. I would be quite interested in reading the Latin version.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Well, at the Colloquium XXI this past summer, the Requiem Mass offered on Wednesday, June 15, was in the Ordinary Form, and the Agnus Dei did not use the "dona eis ...". Whether it is permissible to substitute the EF Agnus Dei in the OF Requiem, I don't know.
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    There is no such rubric in the 2002 typical edition, in Latin, of the Roman Missal. The French rubric you quote is likely a French adaptation (and a quite sensible one at that).

    So I do not think there is any permission (save where local adaptations such as the one you mention allow for that) to say «dona eis requiem» at the Agnus Dei in Masses for the Dead---ever. But when you sing some Mass for the Dead composed for what is now the Extraordinary Form you have no other way. And frankly, for what that's worth, it's the sort of change that does not bother or scandalize me in the least.
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    But when you sing some Mass for the Dead composed for what is now the Extraordinary Form you have no other way.

    Is this a valid argument, though? Should I expect to read at PrayTell that, although there's no permission anymore to use "God of power and might," when you sing some Sanctus composed in the 1970s or 1980s you have no other way? I think I know what the response to that would be.
  • jc_saulnier
    Posts: 2
    Canada currently has 2 sacramentaries: French and English. The rubrics in one don't always coincide with one another. So this can't be a question of local adaptations. It wouldn't make sense for the Canadian bishops to create a French adaptation but not a similar English one. Perhaps there was some division between Canada's French and English bishops?

    As far as I know, the English GIRM and the French equivalent in Canada for the forthcoming missal are supposed to be the same...

    I would hope that using the formula «donna eis requiem» would fall under the mutual enrichment that Pope Benedict has spoken about.
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    > The rubrics in one don't always coincide with one another.

    What a mess!

    > Perhaps there was some division between Canada's French and English bishops?

    I guess you know Canada better than I do, but since there's always been so to say some emulation between English speakers and French speakers in Canada...

    > when you sing some Sanctus composed in the 1970s or 1980s

    I was really thinking about polyphony composed for the Extraordinary Form, and hence older than the 60's! (The sort of thing which may present you a much, much harder problem in the Ordinary Form: the Introit and the Kyrie stuck together, making up one piece only... I do NOT know how such music might reasonably be employed in the Ordinary Form! I'll be glad to hear your opinions!)

    I believe polyphony by Palestrina, Victoria, other great names of the past, and even less known or less genial composers working with the Extraordinary Form in mind has far more authority that the stuff that came out of the decades after the last Council...
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    I do NOT know how such music might reasonably be employed in the Ordinary Form! I'll be glad to hear your opinions!

    You are asking, how can we bend and contort the liturgy to force it into the servitude of the music we prefer. I am saying, we cannot and should not even want to. If the words are illict -- even though licit once upon a time -- then the piece simply cannot be sung. That goes for music you or I might prefer (an old Agnus Dei) just as much as for music somebody else might prefer (a '70s-era Sanctus). A composer with some skill, of course, will be able to take care of many problems such as altering one or two words or even, perhaps, surgically separating a monster like a conjoined introikyrie. And if this cannot be done, then the piece is simply unsuitable for the sacred liturgy.
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    @MarkThompson -- The way you put things does make sense. It's just that I find it a pity and a loss that so many Requiem Masses have to be either mutilated or discarded. And I think it's not just a matter of preference for some music, but that some liturgical music has intrinsic qualities that command us to prefer it.

    But, of course, we should let the Liturgy form us rather than trying to deform her...
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,481
    I find it a pity and a loss that so many Requiem Masses have to be either mutilated or discarded.

    They don't have to be. That's (one of the reasons) why we have the Extraordinary Form.
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    > we have the Extraordinary Form

    In the USA you do; around here in Portugal we don't, and won't till a whole new generation of bishops (and priests, and, to tell the truth, above all, a whole new generation of lay people) shows up. I'll sit down while waiting.
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