I gave up and became a truck driver.
  • searchfgold6789
    Posts: 30
    Follow-up to: https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/22352/advice-needed-auditions-and-job-applications/
    TL:DR; I was burned out of my first two jobs straight out of college (DMA) back to back. The first one mysteriously asked me to resign and offered me a severance package, which I took, and I never found out the real reason. The second one siphoned the organist wedding and funeral pay and refused to fix the issue, and instead the Diocese proposed to change my job description; I walked off that job, as there were other red flags too. The people here gave me wonderful advice and encouragement. As I went along being unemployed and still rejected by even the most intuitive posts, I gradually got more panicked and frustrated, as you can see from one or two of the comments. That thread left off with me still being unemployed.

    We also had another baby during that time. Since I graduated, our family has spent more time on food stamps and medicaid than bringing in a non-zero household income. This should not be possible considering the alleged demand for qualified church musicians, and the well-documented "revival" of Catholicism in many parts of the country. Something is wrong here.

    I wound up moving back to my home state close to family. I acquired my CDL in 7 weeks, and the state paid for it. The CDL school had job boards listing companies that were specific pipelines from that school. Instead of you applying to the job and hoping to win a contest to get the job, you talked to a recruiter and they tried to convince you to join their company - they applied to you. If you struggled to get a job, there were people who you could talk to at the school to help you.

    I was hired by a local company within two weeks of graduating, and now my job is to deliver cases of soda to local restaurants and stores. The entry level trainee compensation package is better than what I made at either church job. I will not lose my job if management changes. If I do something wrong, the boss tells me what it is and I correct it. After I go home for the day, no one bothers me and I just chill with my family. I receive good health insurance mostly paid for by the company. It is a very physical job, and there is a risk of injury, but I know how to use my body thanks to Alexander technique, and I will not wear down. Instead, now I'm in the best shape of my life.

    Out with it now, is the church field as we used to know it just dead/dying? I have heard of many similar stories, and the BS I went through is certainly seen as typical by my more experienced colleagues. But having gone through the process of entering the transportation field, I laugh at the fact that I jumped through so many hoops to find a low-paying church music post without even being 100% sure I'd get the job and it would last.

    Maybe it's time for major changes in the church music profession. What if church music had the bare minimum professional standards that truck driving does? Then we would abolish pointless audition contests, require salary ranges to be posted, hold Dioceses accountable for mistreatment, make sure qualifications are adequately recognized, and provide standardized trainee programs - all things that most professional fields have. How do we make this happen? :)

    It's still my dream to work full-time teaching people how to sing together for the liturgy, and providing glorious organ music for Mass and the Office. But it's just a dream, I guess. I tried as hard as I could, and at the end of the day I don't regret getting those degrees.
    Thanked by 3DrJS Lars mattebery
  • DrJS
    Posts: 17
    Thank you for the update. I'd seen your previous posts and I'm glad to see that you're living a better life. May God bless you and your growing family.
    I feel your pain. Like you, I have a DMA. I desire to provide beautiful music for the liturgy, but it seems all the leadership wants is an ugly NO factory at the cheapest possible price. I've been subject to unpaid work, non-agreed upon changes to my job description, emotional manipulation, and a complete lack of regard for my area of expertise.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 1,057
    It's true that there is a great need for good quality church musicians.

    The problem is that the priests and the churches haven't figured that out yet and others are afraid of the sheep.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,647
    There is a great need for talent and intelligence, and some ambition that leads to competence, at all levels of the church particularly in places where she was historically nonexistent as an institution but is now being asked to do more with fewer clerics and far more laity than anyone ever believed would be served in that territory, even geographically smaller ones than in times past, like my own diocese, Nashville (cut in 2/3 in 1970 when Memphis was created, cut to its present size losing the other 1/3 in 1988 when the see of Knoxville was erected).

    The bare minimum norms of even moderately sized small businesses are not observed: I rather tend to dislike small businesses, as their dysfunction leads to great injustices: big corporations might not be great, but the fear of a lawsuit makes it somewhat easier to get the right thing which you are owed as an employee.
  • wspinnenwspinnen
    Posts: 37
    Many graduates of my organ/sacred music program (Indiana University) have left the profession full-time for other lines of work. In some cases, they still do music on the side. The further I get from graduation, the more I understand why they left.

    My experience from job hunting when I graduated two years ago was horrible, and the job I initially accepted was a nightmare, but that's another story.

    I think that many of these parishes who advertise for a music director, organist, etc., already have someone they know lined up behind the scenes. This was the case with at least two or three jobs I was interested in, one of which was a cathedral organist position. They act like they're casting a wide net just so they don't get in trouble. It's nepotistic and demeaning.

    It was equally discouraging when I watched other graduates in my cohort and the one behind me have cushy jobs lined up one-two months before graduation, and they seemed to have barely tried at all with the application process. It made me wonder, what the he|| am I doing wrong? What's wrong with me?

    I think you made the best decision for yourself right now.

  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,450
    As someone who left full-time church work a while ago also, I understand where you're coming from. I hope you are able to make use of your talents and skill in a limited way and (somewhat) on your own terms while you are supporting your family outside of music. I still play sometimes and cantor other times when I'm needed, though this is infrequent. As my (many!) children get older, I hope to be able to participate in sacred music more often.
    Thanked by 1rich_enough
  • Diapason84
    Posts: 150
    I am seeing good signs with younger priests attempting to set the ship straight liturgically but it will take time, and it will require these priests growing in numbers and attaining positions of influence in dioceses, offices of worship and bishops' conferences. And also parishioners supporting their priests.
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 774
    I am seeing good signs with younger priests attempting to set the ship straight liturgically but it will take time, and it will require these priests growing in numbers and attaining positions of influence in dioceses, offices of worship and bishops' conferences. And also parishioners supporting their priests.


    It would be helpful if the older generation who helped cause the mess we’re in now were limited by the amount influence they’re allowed to have in parishes.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 12,088
    I don't know how musicians are able to work in that field for the Catholic Church full time. I played for years but as a federal government librarian music was a side job and I was never dependent on it. I finally reached the point with our last pastor when I decided putting up with that bellowing windbag was not worth it. Also, I really had aged out of trying to please anyone else. It is a fact, unfortunately, that those Christians are often hell to work for and with. I still play for my own amusement but only for others when I feel like it and when it accomplishes a timely goal. No more 'beagles wings' or 'amazing grass' or whatever is currently popular. searchfgold6789 enjoy your new job and remember that there is life outside of Catholic music. Who knows, God may provide you with something musical that is perfect for you. However, it is always good to have something else to fall back on. To paraphrase Wilde, I think it is, the way the church treats its musicians it doesn't deserve to have any.
    Thanked by 4CHGiffen wspinnen Roborgelmeister Charles
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 595
    Sadly, your story is not unique - whether in the smaller world of church music or the bigger world of professional music.

    It seems to me that there must be efforts made at the undergraduate level to ensure musicians have a ‘backup’ set of skills to protect them against the inherent risks of work as a professional performer. Whether those are built into their degrees, offered as a separate concurrent degree or otherwise obtainable through technical colleges, I simply don’t know.
    Thanked by 4Abbysmum CHGiffen Charles CharlesW
  • davido
    Posts: 1,219
    Perhaps the university music system is partly to blame for creating job expectations that don’t match reality. The degree costs the equivalent of accounting or nursing degrees, but the wages and commitments don’t match. Music is much more of a vocation than most other jobs. Professional musicians usually express this to students, but everyone has to learn it themselves through experience.
    Thanked by 2Charles PaxMelodious
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 3,318
    I’m of the mind that most people cannot do this full time. Most churches don’t pay a living wage. I was only part time for years until I happened upon two consecutive jobs that were a bit atypical. One was under a traditional pastor who budgeted for Latria first, and the rest flowed from there. The other is a cathedral job, and I think we can all figure out why a cathedral would make sure they have a full-time musician. They kind of cannot … not. But for the average parish, they cannot (or will not) pay wages that support a family any more. Tithes are through the floor, attendance is a 10th of what it was 30 years, etc. etc.
    Thanked by 1probe
  • 32ContraBombarde32ContraBombarde
    Posts: 157
    I get it. It's all too common in our line of work. Much of my work in sacred music has been a side gig, sometimes for similar reasons. And I've happily walked away from ridiculously toxic environments.

    But, just to provide a little counterpoint lest it all seem doom & gloom to onlookers: the unicorn scenarios do exist at the parish level. I've experienced it three times, and I'm blessed to be in one now. No need to get too deep into the nitty gritty, but thanks be to God I've landed a DoM/organist role that pays appropriately for the local cost of living such that I am supporting my stay-at-home-mom wife and three kids and keeping up with a homestead farm on my DoM salary (funerals and weddings additional, but the salary pays the bills). I have a pastor who has my back 100% and wants nothing more from me than to be unapologetically faithful to the mind of the Church, and is willing to invest in it. A parochial vicar who is totally bought-in on excellent liturgy and high standards for music. And a bishop (and diocesan Director of Worship) who are fully supportive of parish efforts to revitalize liturgy and sacred music along the "reform of the reform" lines. And still more, a crop of seminarians in the diocese who, from my experience, are all of the same mind: do what Mother Church teaches, and be willing to invest in liturgy. Not that my job doesn't have it's challenges (it has plenty). It's definitely still vocational. But it's rewarding, exciting, AND it pays the bills. And as I said, I've been part of two very similar programs in the past at the parish level.

    This in no way discounts the real disappointment and struggles you've all hit on in this thread. I've been there, too. It's real. But maybe my current situation can at least be a little beacon of hope that these scenarios do exist. And I think--slowly, slowly--we'll see more of it. God willing.
    Thanked by 9Lars probe a_f_hawkins Chant_Supremacist CHGiffen Charles ServiamScores LauraKaz rich_enough
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 774
    I’m of the mind that most people cannot do this full time. Most churches don’t pay a living wage.

    How do you define a “living wage”? Where I live a living wage is $26.88/hr. The RCCO paygrid is well above that. Most parishes simply don’t have the resources or the workload to support a full time organist or MD. Even many Protestants places of worship don’t have full time organists or MDs. They supplement their income with other part time job such as accompanying or directing other choirs in the community, teaching private lessons, work as clinicians, etc.

    The only full time professional musicians I knew of growing up were band directors and high school choir directors who taught music full time in different schools throughout the city. They did their paid professional playing part time in the evenings and weekends. It was obvious the majority of them didn’t really want to be there, but they were still able to make a living in music.

    With the exception of a few professions (ie: teaching, engineering, business, etc), the purpose of a university degree is to obtain higher learning, study and develop critical thinking. It’s not to get a job afterwards. If you want a job, you go to a tech school, community college, or do a university program that is a specific profession. This is a problem in our schools. Every teacher and guidance counsello , from elementary to high school tells students that if they want to amount to anything in life, they need to go into large amounts of debt and get at minimum, a Bachelor’s degree, which isn’t true. Furthermore, universities have become businesses above places of higher learning.

    I wouldn’t rely on being a truck driver for a career. Eventually you will have a near-death close call and decide to hang up your keys.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,689
    the purpose of a university degree is to obtain higher learning, study and develop critical thinking. It’s not to get a job afterwards.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    See St John Henry Newman "The Idea of a University"
    Thanked by 2SponsaChristi CHGiffen
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 774
    See St John Henry Newman "The Idea of a University"

    We studied this in my 100 level introduction history class in university. Learning that the purpose of a university education isn’t to get a job didn’t go over too well with those for whom it was their first year of university.
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 595
    That may have been the case in Newman’s life and times, when university degrees were not a threshold requirement for any range of professions. Unfortunately, the nature of higher education has changed since then.
    Thanked by 2Chant_Supremacist CharlesW
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,647
    Well, the nature hasn’t, we just deny it.
    Thanked by 4davido SponsaChristi a_f_hawkins Diapason84
  • TLMlover
    Posts: 150
    A bit off-topic, but I have been quite amazed by the awful church musicians I have encountered in my experience, who actually have degrees. Especially organists! My goodness! I do not have a degree in anything, but I have 25 years of experience working as a cantor, chorister, classically trained pianist, music director, music teacher, and untrained but improving organist.

    A few weeks ago I was asked to sub for an organist who is a doctorate student at the local university. I heard him play Mass one Sunday (including organ prelude), and I was shocked. Grad student, really?!? He was terrible!

    At a different parish, I worked as a cantor for many years and encountered several degreed organists/DOMs who did not play well at all, nor did they have much talent in choral music. One organist played so sloppily that I used to beg him to practice more. Sometimes he kinda ruined what I was singing! He was a good friend, so I was able to speak to him frankly, but it amazed me that he was a degreed musician. He went to Julliard, my goodness.

    At that same parish, the tenor section leader also had an advanced vocal degree but could not hear how flat he was!

    I could go on with many more examples, but my comment is off topic, I know. Just saying that a degree does not necessarily equal good musicianship, and it's disappointing that many parishes only want to hire degreed musicians.

    Best of luck to searchfgold, and please don't rule out subbing. Subs are hard to find, and sometimes subbing can give you a way into a full-time job.

    Thanked by 2Abbysmum novusgordo
  • 32ContraBombarde32ContraBombarde
    Posts: 157
    @TLMlover - I'm another very experienced but non-music-degreed practitioner. I've met brilliant degreed and post-grad level musicians, and some lousy ones. I've met un-degreed musicians of remarkable caliber, and some of lousy ability. Degree, or lack thereof, is definitely not the only metric. I wouldn't paint either with too broad a brush. I let their musical merit speak for itself.
    Thanked by 2Abbysmum CHGiffen
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 595
    The experiences recounted here of working with degreed musicians are sobering.

    It seems to me that one of the glaring gaps in music degree programs is efficient preparation. They’re geared largely towards small amounts of repertoire, prepared over very long timeframes. That’s the polar opposite of what is needed in most liturgical contexts.
    Thanked by 7Abbysmum irishtenor CHGiffen tandrews probe novusgordo LauraKaz
  • AbbysmumAbbysmum
    Posts: 179
    It seems to me that one of the glaring gaps in music degree programs is efficient preparation. They’re geared largely towards small amounts of repertoire, prepared over very long timeframes. That’s the polar opposite of what is needed in most liturgical contexts.


    This!! I don't have a degree, but my background was focused on "learning the big pieces". I struggled with the churn of liturgical music initially. When we've tried to get other musicians in (either as regulars or one-offs), this is the biggest struggle for them. Also, the ability to do things by the seat of the their pants.

    I'm a good sight-reader, and that has saved by bacon many times. I wish what music ed I do have taught me more about improvising, picking things up by ear and doing transposition on the fly. I'm finally getting better at those things, but it's sure been a steep learning curve!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,493
    For, me, the problem and condrumdum is that I love music and sacred music so much.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Noctcaelador
    Posts: 26
    I do think the increasing emphasis on improvisation in degree programs is beneficial, and maybe we should do more sight reading and liturgical skills, but (speaking as a teacher) one big difficulty with this is that, for most students, repertoire will suffer beyond the level of acceptability (in juries), and then admin would ask questions about my teaching...
    There is definitely something wrong with organ playing in the Roman Church, but we can't one hundred percent blame it on the poor parishes that fund it.
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