A funny thing happened while I was reading the GIRM...
  • AbbysmumAbbysmum
    Posts: 175
    Ok, so over on @ServiamScores YouTube channel, he tells me I should read the GIRM. Good advice. I've been working through that initial 70 or so pages of instructions over my lunch break the past few days (I coincidently found a hard copy of that section on a shelf in my office a couple of days before he posted that short. One of the previous occupants left it there with copious notes in the margins. I work in the Faith Formation office as my "day job".)

    I know this has been debated here and I've read lots about it on the CMAA website already, but it's really stark when reading it. The entire thing talks about chant, and only chant, except in ONE spot - having a post communion hymn. That seems to be the only place that word is used. I should qualify this by saying this is the Canadian version of the GIRM.

    So here's my question - if the GIRM is pretty explicit about using chant (and prescribing when it should be used etc), why do we sing hymns in the OF? I know that's a $64,000 question, but I'm interested in the history of how we got to here when the roadmap points us there. So I'm looking for recommended reading.

    Now, I will admit, I haven't read to the end yet. I have about 15 pages left, so maybe there's plot twist I haven't gotten to yet. But the cast of characters (Sacrosanctum concilium and its compatriots) seem pretty firmly entrenched in the story, so I'm not expecting any surprises. But I'm having a cognative dissonance moment where the CCCB instructions are to use chant, but on the CCCB website it lists nothing but hymns as recommended music suggestions for literally every Sunday and Feast Day of the calendar.

    Please, oh wise ones, suggest more reading for me!

    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,255
    They decided to translate cantus as “chant”, but “song” wouldn't have been wrong. At any rate cantus doesn't mean Gregorian, in the IGMR / GIRM.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,292
    Chapter 48 of the GIRM tells the various sources from which the Entrance Chant may be taken: the Graduale Romanum or the Graduale Simplex, or from another chant that is appropriate for the occasion and which is approved by the bishops' conference. In Canada I expect that the current CBW is considered as fulfilling those last criteria.
    Thanked by 1Abbysmum
  • novusgordo
    Posts: 21
    The trouble is, CBW3 is out of print, and the successor Music for Catholic Worship has been coming “soon” for the better part of a decade.
    Thanked by 1Abbysmum
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 768
    They decided to translate cantus as “chant”, but “song” wouldn't have been wrong. At any rate cantus doesn't mean Gregorian, in the IGMR / GIRM.

    I’m not entirely convinced of that. Sacrosanctum concilium says that simpler versions of the chants are to be created for churches with smaller resources, which suggests a prioritizing of Gregorian Chant.

    After COVID, I was really hoping that the chant propers would make a comeback.

    The trouble is, CBW3 is out of print, and the successor Music for Catholic Worship has been coming “soon” for the better part of a decade.

    CBW IV isn’t going to be what you think it is. I know Attende Domine was added, but it was a challenge to get it in.
  • davido
    Posts: 1,219
    Andrew Malton is correct. That’s what cantus means.
  • AnimaVocis
    Posts: 224
    Regarding why we sing hymns in the OF... I (somewhat recently) learned that the roots of the vast majority of today's NO Masses were born out of the tradition of the low Mass with hymns. This is why the default seems to be a Missa lecta and a four-hymn sandwich - VERY few places actually observed Masses in the NO as being congruent with Sung High Masses, and have kept it up as such through the transition from the VO to the NO.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,654
    The USCCB staff clarified back some fifteen years ago that "cantus" being translated as "chant" does not mean "chant" in a restrictive English sense, but in terms of meaning is equivalent to "song". It was one of the examples where the translation relied on the crutch of friendly cognates without considering meaning. Anyway, if "chant" were to be interpreted in a restrictive sense, you couldn't do polyphonic propers either.

    It's all water long under the bridge, and I would not recommend anyone in parish ministry trying to play clever with that choice of translation as if it were a silver bullet to support their goal.
  • Elmar
    Posts: 523
    After COVID, I was really hoping that the chant propers would make a comeback.
    [...] would not recommend anyone in parish ministry trying to play clever with that choice of translation as if it were a silver bullet to support their goal.
    The music director of our parish started singing (vernacular) propers for entrance and communion during COVID, and he continued doing so when congragational & choral singing was allowed again, without ever explaining why this was a good idea; pastor didn't either. People - as least who I spoke about it - started associating propers with living under pandemic restrictions. No wonder that they promptly disappeared when we got a new pastor in 2023 and entrance & communion hymn came back.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,654
    PS: from page 2 of the January 2012 USCCB Divine Worship newsletter, in which the Secretariat for Divine Worship directly addressed the question:

    The meaning of chant in the GIRM is not restrictive.png
    1494 x 794 - 351K
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,276
    I'm interested in the history of how we got to here when the roadmap points us there

    What the periti of V2 might have thought they were getting was a mandate for a Missa Cantata. But since it was an unfunded mandate, it didn't happen, and the Low-Mass-with-hymns paradigm prevailed instead.

    Ken Canedo's Keep the Fire Burning is a good history of 1960s-70s Catholic music through the eyes of the victors.

    More here: https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/comment/258540#Comment_258540
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,654
    What the periti of V2 might have thought they were getting was a mandate for a Missa Cantata. But since it was an unfunded mandate, it didn't happen, and the Low-Mass-with-hymns paradigm prevailed instead.


    The other big (probably even bigger) dog that didn't bark was that few bishops were willing make normatively typical on at least Sundays and days of precept (1) the chanting of the dialogues and orations by the members of their presbyterates, and (2) the singing of the Ordinary.

    Cart vs horse placement issues.

    Then again, by the time the new missal rolled out, bishops and pastors were fighting a rear-guard action to stanch the hemorrhaging of faithful from regular appearance in the pews after Humanae Vitae.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 411
    What the periti of V2 might have thought they were getting was a mandate for a Missa Cantata. But since it was an unfunded mandate, it didn't happen, and the Low-Mass-with-hymns paradigm prevailed instead.
    Years ago, in the early days of the PrayTell blog, they published the minutes of the meetings of the liturgical committee at St. John's Abbey from the mid 60s. It was very illuminating. They presumed that Sung Mass=Gregorian chant, and since there were not any vernacular versions of the traditional chant available they decided that in implementing the vernacular liturgy they would do what they called "Solemnized Low Mass," which they conceived of as introducing some elements of High Mass (e.g. the singing of the Sanctus) into Low Mass. They seem to have thought that once music was available they would shift to a vernacular High Mass, but that never seemed to happen. They seem to have come to prefer the "simplicity" of the Solemnized Low Mass. Reading this back then was a real revelation to me in coming to understand how we ended up where we did.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 3,317
    I will accept that “chant” can be translated in a broader sense (“chanter” is “to sing” in French, for instance). That said, there’s only one way to interpret “chant” in the first three options. We don’t refer to the “songs” in the Graduale Romanum or simplex.

    The whole “option four is a loophole so we can do whatever the heck we want” is a despicable interpretation of the rubrics.

    For starters (and while I acknowledge this is debated) the options appear to read in a hierarchical sense, if properly contextualized.

    Let’s think: SC specifically mandated that Gregorian Chant be retained in the new rite of Mass. MS then specified that the books of chant (yes, chant) were to be updated for the new rite of Mass. Then the rubrics specifically mention chanting first from the Graduale Romanum, and if not that, then the simplex, and if not that, then another collection of antiphons and psalms approved by the local ordinary, and then, if none of those conditions or met, another chant. This is clearly a reductive set of rubrics which stray further and further from the council’s stated ideal, and from liturgical precedence.

    Think about it: the old rite entirely consisted of these chants, and then the council states, “we need to keep all this stuff” (and polyphony) and then the first rubric is to “keep doing the same stuff”. This is very straightforward. And if you don’t do the stuff, do the simpler version of the stuff. And if you don’t do that stuff, do other stuff that is derivative of it.

    So to then read rubric 4 as wide as a barn door and to drive a tractor clear through it and then entirely ignore ALL of liturgical precedence and tradition is to completely rip the rubric out of context and tradition. (And this is to speak only of the Roman Rite, not of any of the other ancient and apostolic rites which also all incorporate chanted antiphons.)

    The Simplex exists. The Graduale Romanum is recommended by name multiple times. It was even revised and recast as the Gregorian Missal (only in 2012!) to fulfill the mandate that things were to be revised to suit the new calendar and form…

    And let’s look at polyphony which flowed from Gregorian chant. What does it set? The antiphons in s a special sacral idiom. This is also recommended. (Along with organ)

    Now let’s look at the average, suburban NO Mass. No propers, no organ, no chant, no polyphony.

    And people HONESTLY dare—based on the liberal reading of option 4 alone—that this is in any way fully compliant with the wishes of the council? (And even funnier: that it’s the ‘unique’ expression of the ‘Roman Rite’?!) (And I forgot to add, all the while also ignoring the propers right in the altar missal itself!)

    I. Just. Don’t. Buy. It.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,654
    It's a free country, but it doesn't mean "chant" in the GIRM was intended nor is required to be read restrictively, which was the much narrower starting point of this thread.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,686
    Years ago, in the early days of the PrayTell blog, they published the minutes of the meetings of the liturgical committee at St. John's Abbey from the mid 60s. It was very illuminating. They presumed that Sung Mass=Gregorian chant, and since there were not any vernacular versions of the traditional chant available they decided that in implementing the vernacular liturgy they would do what they called "Solemnized Low Mass," which they conceived of as introducing some elements of High Mass (e.g. the singing of the Sanctus) into Low Mass. They seem to have thought that once music was available they would shift to a vernacular High Mass, but that never seemed to happen. They seem to have come to prefer the "simplicity" of the Solemnized Low Mass. Reading this back then was a real revelation to me in coming to understand how we ended up where we did.


    By far my favorite blog series. It’s A+ stuff.

    I documented some of it here:
    https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/11338/the-most-interesting-blog-post-series-of-2014-from-pray-tell-blog-collegeville-archives-from-1960s
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,292
    ServiamScores writes:
    The Graduale Romanum is recommended by name multiple times. It was even revised and recast as the Gregorian Missal (only in 2012!) to fulfill the mandate that things were to be revised to suit the new calendar and form…


    I'm a little puzzled at this last assertion: the 1974 Graduale Romanum was revised to suit the new calendar; it was constructed (with tiny exceptions) according to the rules in the first edition of the Ordo Cantus Missae, which tells how the 1961 GR chants were to be reordered for the new calendar.

    Are you saying that the Gregorian Missal, in its various vernacular editions, changes some content or calendar assignments from those in the GR '74? I've never compared them to check, so I'll be surprised if this is the case.
  • AbbysmumAbbysmum
    Posts: 175
    Thank you all for your replies. It's been an interesting discussion.

    I *could* buy into the word "chant" being used in the non-restrictive sense except for two things:

    1. What ServiamScores talks about in how the Graduale Romanum and the Simplex are referred to.

    2. If we didn't have this random, solitary use of the word "hymn" when referring to post-communion music, which now I'm wondering is a translation problem or an intentional word choice. Why are they making that distinction? It would be a place where there is no prescribed text, so if that was an intention word choice it makes sense that hymn would be used there.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,292
    It doesn't appear to be a translation mistake. The Latin text of the GIRM (from the 2002 Missale Romanum) has this:

    88. Distributione Communionis expleta, pro opportunitate, sacerdos et fideles
    per aliquod temporis spatium secreto orant. Si placet, etiam psalmus vel
    aliud laudis canticum vel hymnus a tota congregatione persolvi potest.


    which is:

    88. When the distribution of Communion has been completed, the priest and faithful should, if there is an opportunity, pray in silence for some time. If desired, a psalm or another song or hymn of praise can be sung by the whole congregation.


    So the rubric explicitly allows for a variety of musical forms, psalm, song ("canticum"), or hymn ("hymnus").

    In some places, musicians have moved the usual recessional hymn to the place which this GIRM paragraph proposes; then the departing procession is accompanied solely by the organ.
  • AbbysmumAbbysmum
    Posts: 175
    So my next question is: what is the difference between the different musical forms. A psalm is obvious, but what's the different between a song and a hymn?
  • Xopheros
    Posts: 140
    In addition to the question by @Abbysmum: I have noticed that the term "hymn" is used in this forum in a different meaning from how I would use this term. According to my music lexicon, a "hymn" is "solemn song of praise of cultic origin". This would mean that "hymn of praise" is a pleonasm. The lexicon further says that "later" (post-Graecan), the term "hymn" meant a song based on a non-biblical text. As examples, the lexicon gives the Gloria, the Sanctus, the Te Deum and Pange lingua.

    It seems to me that "hymn" in this forum is used in a different meaning, namely as a synonym for sacred songs based on metric poetic non-bibical texts meant to be sung by the entire congregation and of post-medieval origin. Apparently it is often referred to with disdain ("four hymn sandwich"). Can someone please provide a definition of "hymn" how it is understood in this forum?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,967
    but what's the different between a song and a hymn?


    Easy songs are found in books with Hymn written on the cover and Hymns are found in Liturgical books including the Kyriale (Angelic Hymn), Graduale, Antiphonale, Processionale, and Hymnarium.

    As @Xopheros notes above, the problem is that historically Hymn referred to a Liturgical piece of music, such as the Gloria (Angelic Hymn), Sequence Hymn, Prose Hymn, Processional Hymn, and the Divine Office Hymn.
    Other religious but not Liturgical music was just a Song or a Carol (Carols are not just for Christmas).

    Now most people refer to any metrical text with a religious theme as a Hymn, including former songs, carols and metrical translations of true Hymns.

    So in short the meaning of hymn varies with the context both here and almost anywhere else.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,292
    As Xopheros rightly indicates, the word "hymn" has a broad meaning in the study of liturgy, and his lexicon sounds about right.

    A handful of hymns are of prose texts such as the Gloria and the Te Deum, which have been adopted into the liturgy itself; but most hymns are of versified texts, structured in stanzas with a fixed meter. They range from the hymns of St. Ambrose to present-day compositions. Most but not all hymns of the Latin Office have some pattern of rhyme, and the same is the case for English hymns since the Renaissance.

    Metrical hymns are generally of non-scriptural texts, and they were only slowly admitted to the liturgy: first in the monastic Office, as shown in the Rule of St. Benedict; and later (13th c.) in the Roman Office.

    Hymns are a subcategory of songs, and the proviso Xopheros quotes, that hymns are "of cultic origin", is relevant.

    I suppose many of the contemporary songs used in church from composers such as Haugen, Joncas, etc., could be called prose hymns, when they lack rhyme and meter. But the compositions of more irregular form might not resemble liturgical/cultic material enough to deserve the name of 'hymn', and we might fall back to calling them 'songs'.

    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,654
    "song"/"cantus-canticum" is simply the broadest category of vocalized music. Psalm, canticle, poem/carmen, and hymn are, as it were, lesser-included subcategories. There's simply no official basis for assuming a restrictive meaning in the context of the 2011 Missal. The text won't credibly bear the function of a silver bullet.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Abbysmum
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 845
    @Abbysmum, your instincts are right on target—the “plot twist” you’re sensing actually appears at the very beginning of the Mass instructions. Although paragraph 88 explicitly mentions a hymn after Communion, the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) already provides broad flexibility earlier in the liturgy. In the Canadian version, Section 48 outlines four options for the Entrance chant, culminating in Option 4: “another liturgical song” (alius cantus) suited to the sacred action, feast, or season, and approved by ecclesial authority.

    The U.S. edition of the GIRM follows essentially the same structure and wording, likewise permitting “another suitable song” approved by the bishops’ conference. This same provision is repeated for the Offertory (GIRM 74) and the Communion procession (GIRM 86) in both countries. As @Liam and @chonak noted, the Latin term cantus simply means “song,” even though it is translated as “chant” in English, which opens the door for hymns to be used in place of the prescribed antiphons.

    At the same time, those hymns are not meant to function independently of the liturgical action or merely to parallel the readings; rather, they should support the ritual moment itself. The proper antiphons act like signposts or mile markers within the liturgy, orienting the faithful to what is happening, and any hymn chosen should echo and reinforce that role.

    The CCCB’s recommendation of hymns—and the similar practice in the U.S.—fits squarely within the GIRM’s framework, provided those hymns truly serve the liturgical action as “another suitable liturgical song”.

    This discussion actually touches on something I’ve been studying more deeply—how hymns are meant to support the liturgical action rather than simply mirror the readings. I’ve put together a short document on it and would genuinely appreciate any feedback if you’d be open to taking a look. What is a Catholic Hymn?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • RoborgelmeisterRoborgelmeister
    Posts: 396
    Paraphrasing a post by Dr. Paul Ford from several years ago:
    The hymn after Communion as found in the Graduale Simplex, 465–474, is one of these: the Te Deum, the Te Decet Laus, and the Te Laudamus Domine.
    This is why, in this particular instance, the word "hymn" is used. There was a rubric in the 1967 revision of the missal regarding this "hymn," but it is not found in the New Order of the Mass. One wonders why. These would be some much superior to the syrupy "meditations" that disfigure the mass in some places.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 3,317
    I'm a little puzzled at this last assertion: the 1974 Graduale Romanum was revised to suit the new calendar; it was constructed (with tiny exceptions) according to the rules in the first edition of the Ordo Cantus Missae, which tells how the 1961 GR chants were to be reordered for the new calendar.

    Are you saying that the Gregorian Missal, in its various vernacular editions, changes some content or calendar assignments from those in the GR '74? I've never compared them to check, so I'll be surprised if this is the case.

    I didn’t specify the ‘74 when I made my remark. I was just highlighting the fact that the GR had been recast as the Gregorian Missal which is (evidently) the 74 GR but with vernacular translations and rubrics thrown in for good measure. I had forgotten that the GR was revised in 74, but this merely bolsters my argument that the documents were revised and intended for use.

    "song"/"cantus-canticum" is simply the broadest category of vocalized music. Psalm, canticle, poem/carmen, and hymn are, as it were, lesser-included subcategories. There's simply no official basis for assuming a restrictive meaning in the context of the 2011 Missal. The text won't credibly bear the function of a silver bullet.
    As I granted above. But even your own observation requires its own clarification, because there is no other way to interpret “chant” than… chant when referring to the music in the Graduale Romanum (/ Missal) and Simplex.

    Ironically, the fact that “hymn” is referred to explicitly later, as Abbysum points out, is closer to a silver bullet than even the broad interpretation of “chant” to mean any sung song.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,654
    Except that it's no such thing. That's just reading something into that's not intended.
  • Charles_Weaver
    Posts: 240
    Behind ServiamScores's post is the idea that the four numbered options listed in GIRM 48 are arranged hierarchically. That is, the entrance antiphon is the first choice for that moment in the liturgy, and the other options are to be thought of as substitutions for it. This seems to dovetail well with the idea that Gregorian chant should have pride of place in our liturgical celebrations. It also just seems completely sensible given the history of the Latin rites.

    If the list is indeed in order of preference, the history of how we got here since Vatican 2 is interesting but extraneous; the point stands that in the modern Pauline Rite songs ("chant" in the broadest possible sense as the GIRM has it) of any sort, including hymns, are allowed, but antiphons ("chant" in the sense of Gregorian melodies or something derived from them) should be considered the first choice. Is that a reasonable summary of the situation?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,654
    Yes, but all other things being equal, which they often aren't in reality, and the real question is what energy if any bishops and pastors would expend on a durable basis on making them less unequal in practice. Inertia is powerful.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,654
    So, a question for Gregorian chant practitioners on this board who started with little to nothing, as it were:

    My impression is that the resources to direct, learn, train and supply scholas that wish to include Gregorian chant on a stable basis in their repertoire (but not necessarily at the level of always doing all the propers, as it were) are much more readily available than they were 30-40-50 years ago; does that impression have a firm root in reality on the ground?
  • Charles_Weaver
    Posts: 240
    I would say yes, but I would also say that it was primarily Summorum pontificum and the effect it had on parishes in the years following that allowed that to happen at the local level. That is, places where both the old Roman rite and the new rite coexisted in a single parish are much further along in the fluent use of Gregorian chant in the new Mass than parishes where that didn't happen, regardless of how widely available chant resources are online. That is just my impression based on my experiences of singing/playing in parishes in New York and New England (and travel elsewhere).