The most interesting blog post series of 2014- from Pray Tell Blog, Collegeville Archives from 1960s
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    The most fascinating blog posts I've read over the past few months have been the archives from the Collegeville liturgy committee during/after the Council. Praytell describes the posts as: "Pray Tell is introducing a new series on the liturgical history of Collegeville. The sub-series “From the Archives” will reprint some of the Liturgy Committee meeting minutes from 1963 to 1969. This sub-series is a behind-the-scenes look at liturgy in Collegeville during and immediately after the Second Vatican Council."

    These minutes are fascinating to read. I've included some select quotes from several that I think would be of interest to members of this forum, but encourage you to read the entire thing. I've read some discouraging posts on this forum regarding Pray Tell, but I love PTB and read it daily. There is nothing on the internet more interesting than these posts, I promise you.

    Sept. 9, 1963
    http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2014/06/13/liturgy-in-collegeville-from-the-archives/
    A topic to which must [sic] discussion was given was the entrance procession. Some felt that the Introit could be shortened by singing the Introit Antiphon, when it was repeated at the end of the Introit, on a Psalm tone. However, Father Gerard insisted that this would destroy the purity of the musical form, and his view won general support, although other viewpoints had been presented by Fathers Godfrey and Michael.

    It was decided not to use incense at this Mass in order to keep the form of this Mass as simple as possible. In regard to the Sanctus, Father Godfrey suggested that the one chosen be short and simple so that the celebrant could sing it with the people and then begin the “Te Igitur” after its singing was completed.

    In the course of the meeting Father Godfrey had insisted, and all had agreed, that we should not be tied down to one form of community Mass on Sundays. Fr. Adam suggested that we have a solemnized Low Mass occasionally.”


    Sept. 16, 1963
    http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2014/06/19/liturgy-in-collegeville-from-the-archives-part-ii/
    Here we get our first glimpse at what they meant in the previous edition by "solemnized Low Mass"
    The Mass was arranged as follows:
    Entrance hymn – taken from Our Parish Prays and Sings, the only book to be used at Mass by our student congregation;
    Kyrie and all short responses – to be answered by all in Greek and Latin respectively;
    Gloria –to be recited in English by all after begun by the leader;
    Epistle- to be read by a student
    Alleluia- to be sung by a chanter, then by all;
    Gospel – to be read by a deacon;
    Apostles’ Creed – to be begun by a leader, then recited by all;
    Offertory petitions – to be sung by the deacon and to be answered by all;
    Sanctus XVIII – to be sung in Latin by all, with the celebrant waiting until the conclusion of the Sanctus before beginning the “Te igitur…” (Father Godfrey insisted that the people sing the Sanctus in Latin so that they could join in the Eucharistic prayer);
    Our Father – to be begun by the leader, then recited by all;
    Agnus Dei and Domine non sum dignus – to be recited by all in Latin;
    Communion antiphon and the final hymn- to be sung by all.
    Father Wenceslaus and Fr. Adam said that possibly a commentator should be used at this Mass.
    Father Godfrey suggested that for the recitation of the Gloria, Creed, and Pater Noster in English, the phrasing in Our Parish Prays and Sings should be followed.


    Sept.17, 1963 and Sept. 20, 1963
    http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2014/06/27/liturgy-in-collegeville-from-the-archives-part-iii/
    For Benediction it was suggested that English be used up to and after the Tantum ergo. Some members of the committee thought that Benediction should be eliminated on Saturday night, in order that the prayer-life of the community be simplified.


    Sept. 23, 1963
    http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2014/07/02/liturgy-in-collegeville-from-the-archives-part-iv/
    It was also agreed that a commentator should say an invitatory before the oration and postcommunion, so that the use of a Missal would not be necessary and nonetheless the whole congregation would understand the gist of these prayers.

    It was also suggested that Father Godfrey inquire whether we could be dispensed from Prime, as well as look into the possibility of further indults.


    Oct. 2, 1963
    http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2014/07/11/liturgy-in-collegeville-from-the-archives-part-v/
    Father John began the meeting with the observation that he had heard many unfavorable reactions against the solemnized Low Mass, that is, the Mass celebrated Sunday, Sept. 29. He said that it would seem that the liturgy committee must consider whether or not it would be advisable to switch back to the Solemn High Mass as the form of Mass to be used on Sundays. After he had asked the committee for their views on this matter, and after it was decided to have a solemnized Low Mass at least for next Sunday, Oct. 6, Fr. Aelred stated that his College liturgy class liked the solemnized Low Mass very much. Fr. Adam said that in every community there will be some who dislike the views of a committee for various reasons. The question would be as to how we could overcome these reactions. Papers instructing the community would be one way.

    Fathers Aelred, Daniel, Wenceslaus, and Bro. Gerard thought that we should not take these protests too seriously. Many of them stem from a lack of understanding on the part of the complainers.


    October 10, 1963
    http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2014/07/25/liturgy-in-collegeville-from-the-archives-part-vi/
    The committee discussed what form of Mass to suggest to Father Abbot for the future Sundays. Father Gerard suggested having a cantata on Oct. 20 in order to prepare the people for a suggested High Mass on Oct. 27. This led to a discussion of whether any form of liturgy without readings in the vernacular could be called good liturgy. At the end of the discussion the committee agreed to suggest the following forms of Sunday conventual Mass to the Abbot: Oct. 20—Low Mass; Oct. 27—missa cum deacono; Nov. 1 and Nov. 3—Solemn High Mass (since our students would not be here); Nov. 10, 17, 24, and Dec. 1—solemnized Low Masses; Dec. 8—missa cum deacono. One of the problems considered in conjunction with the question of what forms of Sunday Mass to suggest to Father Abbot was that by having solemn liturgical forms on the great feasts we seem to render the liturgy more inaccessible to our people precisely at a time when we would be making it more accessible to them. European liturgists especially have noted this tendency.


    October 15, 1963
    http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2014/07/28/liturgy-in-collegeville-from-the-archives-part-vii/
    The committee discussed the possibility of singing the Gloria in English at solemnized Low Mass on Sundays, but Father Aelred pointed out that most liturgists feel that there is too much emphasis on the entrance ceremony if the Gloria is sung, and hence the readings come too short. His alternative suggestion was that during the Gloria we sing a doxology, which is the equivalent of the Gloria, since it is never convincing to recite a Gloria. When Father Camillus arrived, after having been detained earlier in the evening, he thought that the singing of a doxology would be undesirable at the present because the students are used to reciting it now, and every change provokes a barrage of questions that lead to time-consuming answers.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen eft94530
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    October 17, 1963
    http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2014/08/08/liturgy-in-collegeville-from-the-archives-part-viii/
    This meeting was particularly lively, centering around a discussion of what form of Mass was to be televised on November 24. As to the form of a Solemn High Mass, Father Daniel wondered if we were being insincere by deviating from our plan of having a solemnized Low Mass on this Sunday for the benefit of our students and if we weren’t staging something of a show instead. Father Aelred thought that a Solemn High Mass stresses secondary elements such as incense too much; he proposed having a missa cantata. Father Wenceslaus objected on the grounds that if we as an Abbey were committed to the liturgical movement—a notion held by many people, including dignitaries such as Cardinal McIntyre, as Xavier Rynne’s book brings out—then we were certainly committed to a concern so essential to the liturgical movement as the restoration of the vernacular. Hence he favored having a solemnized Low Mass. Some members of the committee expressed the fear that some people viewing a televised solemnized Low Mass would be confused or disappointed at not having a Solemn High Mass. Father Daniel replied that this would be a wonderful occasion to carry out our apostolate to the liturgical movement by suggesting to Father Abbot that he preach on why we are having a solemnized Low Mass, the basic reason being that it allows our students greater participation in the Mass.


    October 29, 1963
    http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2014/08/15/liturgy-in-collegeville-from-the-archives-part-ix/

    November 4, 1963
    http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2014/08/18/liturgy-in-collegeville-from-the-archives-part-x/

    Nov. 14, 1963
    http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2014/08/22/liturgy-in-collegeville-from-the-archives-part-xi/
    Father John opened this meeting of the committee by stating that the Abbot had received reports to the effect that the Bishop seemed puzzled or displeased with some of our Sunday liturgy. Father Michael remarked that we should not act on these reports until we had a more exact account of what the Bishop had said. Father Daniel inquired if Father Abbot had spoken to the Bishop yet on the topic of our Sunday liturgy, and Father John thought that he hadn’t. The committee agreed with the sentiment expressed by Father Aelred, namely that we have done nothing at St. John’s that is not allowed.

    Father Daniel wondered why we had had so many Solemn High Masses during the week. After some discussion of this topic the committee agreed in suggesting that we confine our solemnization of the liturgy on weekday mornings, when Mass is celebrated at 5:45, to the form of missa cantata. Any further solemnization of the Mass at this hour seems psychologically impractical and therefore not meaningful. Further, the form of the missa cantata would permit the reading of the Epistle simultaneously in English, while the Gospel could be read in English after the priest had sung it.

    Father Gerard suggested that the Advent Masses be sung because the texts are so meaningful. To this Father Aelred replied that the meaningfulness of the texts was all the more reason for having them in the vernacular. Father Gerard then stated that there would be as much participation at a sung Mass as at the solemnized Low Mass. And it would be direct participation. Further, English hymns could be sung at the beginning and end of the Mass. To Father Gerard’s thought that the singing of English hymns at the beginning of Mass in conjunction with a sung Latin Mass would serve as a good preparation for the sung Mass in English, Father Aelred expressed his disagreement on the grounds that a sung Mass in English will be in English and not in Chant. Father Michael and Daniel expressed the opinion shared by other members of the committee that the solemnized Low Mass is closer in spirit to the future sung Mass in English than the sung Latin High Mass is


    Nov. 23, 1963
    http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2014/08/25/liturgy-in-collegeville-from-the-archives-part-xii/

    Nov. 29, 1963
    http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2014/08/29/liturgy-in-collegeville-from-the-archives-part-xiii/
    Next the committee discussed Father Aelred’s PROPOSED CHANGES IN THE FORMAT OF THE SOLEMNIZED LOW MASS. To the first proposal the committee agreed that a student should read the Gradual after he finishes the Epistle and should structure the reading in such a way that it is clear that it is the Gradual he’s reading. For instance, a distinct pause should be made between the two texts, but not too long.

    A suitable hymn in English could be used here for the offertory chant. Fr. Adam said that there were a lot of such hymns in “Our Parish Prays and Sings.”


    Jan. 3, 1964
    http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2014/09/01/liturgy-in-collegeville-from-the-archives-part-xiv/
    At this point Father Godfrey spoke about the possibility of using syllabic or quasi-syllabic Chant melodies for vernacular texts. Experimentation is necessary to prepare for the English High Mass of the future. St. John’s is particularly qualified for such experimentation. Some examples of this experimentation would be to have the entire congregation sing simple Antiphons, alternating with a choir singing Psalm verses.

    Father Abbot mentioned that it seemed that fewer students were attending the community Mass on Sunday and that Father Walter has expressed the observation that the students at the back of the church were not singing during the solemnized Low Mass. Father Finian thought that the number of students attending Sunday community Mass was about the same, and that those at the back of the church were the type that want to see the Mass celebrated swiftly and not the type that participate.

    Because of the objective norms involved, Father Michael thought that a nose-count of students who disliked or liked the solemnized Low Mass would be of little value. Fr. Adam said that the clerics almost unanimously preferred the solemnized Low Mass. Father Wenceslaus was of the opinion that the principle of active participation that underlies the solemnized Low Mass will eventually and necessarily be appreciated by the students,...


    Jan. 10, 1964
    http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2014/09/05/liturgy-in-collegeville-from-the-archives-part-xv/
    At this point Father Godfrey made the following observations: We have a moral right to the vernacular, that is, to pray in the same language in which we think.... We are a community of priests, clerics, and brothers; we should pray together, and therefore as a community we would have the moral right to pray in the vernacular.


    Jan. 13, 1964
    http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2014/09/08/liturgy-in-collegeville-from-the-archives-part-xvi/
    Lots of stuff about praying the office in the vernacular.

    Jan. 17, 1964
    http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2014/09/12/liturgy-in-collegeville-from-the-archives-part-xvii/
    More office in vernacular talk.

    Jan. 20, 1964
    http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2014/09/15/liturgy-in-collegeville-from-the-archives-part-xviii/
    Talk of whether they should switch to the Roman Rite office.
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    I've been reading those too, but it's sort of fascinating in a watching a train-wreck way.
  • ..."Those were the days my friend...we thought they'd never end...la, la, la, la, etc., etc.,"

    Gaudete in Domino Semper!
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,190
    I know who some of the characters are, but may I ask who is Fr. Gerard?
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Elsewhere in these Musica Sacra Forum Discussions
    I have included fragments of
    The BCL Newsletter
    It might be interesting to plot the timelines and detect similarities.
    Maybe it is time for a CMAA flash mob to edit a Google Doc Spreadsheet and see?
    Well, for me at least, not this week.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,477
    old editions of LITURGY TODAY are also hilarious informative
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    For me, any periodical with certain words (Today, Modern) in the title are like a magnet.