I think the wrong question to ask is whether I could be happier in the same position somewhere else. The grass is always greener--and it really isn't. Frustration will be waiting in the next parish. It's that kind of gig, and that kind of historical time in the Church.

A more productive question is, is this parish music program better off because I'm here? And if it is, stop stressing out (as much as possible) and keep doing your best.

This doesn't seem to appear (at least but rarely) in the Catholic Church. It would be nice, though, if it did, and that bishops would consider this in making appointments. Namely, that in the Anglican world there are parishes which have traditionally outstanding liturgy and music, perhaps for generations, and these are so much a part of the parish spiritual fabric that no new priest could or would be permitted to change it. It would be a step in the right direction if such simple pastoral respect (and obligation) were to find a home in the Catholic Church. One thinks of such stellar places as Washington's St Paul's, K Street, or St Thomas', New York, but there are countless less famed cathedrals and parishes whose music and liturgy are beyond harmful touch by the callous whims of an unsympathetic new pastor.

One might well question the truly pastoral concerns of the sort of priests mentioned in this conversation. How often are 'pastoral concerns' invoked in imposing a pastor's predilictions in a most un-pastoral and impolite manner! Certainly, the spiritual lives of 'the people' are not served by them being jerked this way and that every time a new and culturally illiterate priest takes the reigns. And, bishops who are genuine shepherds should, likewise, take these things into serious consideration. They should very well be mindful of the value that VII placed on the Church's musical 'treasure' and expect their priests to do likewise with enthusiasm. (That this enthusiasm is not bred into them at seminary is a gross misfortune for which the Church pays dearly.)

More to the immediate point of Gavin's topic: I think it does little good to remain in a bad situation for an undue length of time. When one, after rational consideration, realises that the priests and people of these parishes not only couldn't care less but are actually hostile to the VII's 'treasure', one should, for one's own sanity and spiritual well-being and growth, shake the dust off one's feet and search for more fertile ground.

Good point!

But I do despair of so many threads where it seems fine musicians are simply wasting their time and talent to no tangible end.

Let me gripe in your thread if you don't mind. I would add that there are many fine musicians in a given congregation who won't join the choir precisely because it mostly programs fluffy junk. So you will get the usual, "Ok, we have to sing 'Here in this Place' for the procession. The usual kid's campfire melodies for the Gloria and the psalm. Then it is "Here I Am" for the communion. But then, but then, after we have paid our dues, we get to do Ave Verum Corpus!" But of course in most cases you have one or two fine musicians and a bunch of croakers, so it doesn't sound very good. Thus, the status quo is maintained.

Joining the choir isn't just a time commitment. It usually means worship separate from you family. That's a big sacrifice that many fine musicians are willing to make, but not if one is forced to sing 8 pieces of sentimentalist bilge-water just to get to the one piece that is actually worthy of the setting. In other words, most parishes are sitting on a gold mine of talent, but can't bring it bear for a whole host of excuses, but today I'll just label it all democracy.

I've seen one victory. In a former parish we formed a schola as a side project not under the oversight of the parish. We sang plainchant, we sang the good stuff. We attracted great musicians from the college. Then, when the parish's regular choir wasn't in session, we offered to provide the music for masses. We had some parishioners in tears of joy, the quality improvement was palpable, and instead of mumbling through the usual slag-pile, the congregation sang out with us. Through some serendipitous circumstances, there was some job shifting and retirements and the schola became the official choir. So it is possible.

P.S. I was just spitballing with Ave Verum Corpus. I'm sure someone could say that there are simpler pieces that are just as good, that it is not really programmable because etc, etc, etc. Please don't cavil.

In the most successful of situations there is a true partnership between the pastor and the DM. Both need to be able to talk honestly about problems, goals, etc. My pastor
teased a colleague once that he (my pastor) and I were not only reading the same book,
but were frequently on the same paragraph! Even with this level of cooperation, things
don't happen automatically. It takes high-level communication to accomplish agreed-
upon goals- not just communication between the Pastor & DM, but more importantly
between them and the people of the parish. If I can offer any advice that is worthwhile,
it is to work with the children, getting their parents to solidly support the program.
Children are born with "good taste" and revel in it until we adults teach them otherwise.
Get them singing quality music well at a young age and then encourage and nourish
them and watch them teach the adults! If you get discouraged, find a quiet place, say
a prayer, put on music of your favorite composer and pour a glass of your favorite port- or your preference- and concentrate on nothing but the music. I wish you all the
best!

If any of you with more experience see a newbie explain a situation that to you seems hopeless for even the most experienced and thick-skinned musician, let them know. Otherwise, they may get discouraged that they can't fight the fight the way so many of you admirable musicians are doing.

I have contemplated this question quite often. My easy answer is, when you're fired. More difficult answer, when the pastor is leading the congregation astray and you are required to be an accomplice and you cannot in good conscience remain.

Kathy

But, isn't the determined and willfull practice of poor music and litrugical (sic) usage leading the congregation astray? Seeking better ground in which to sow one's seed is not 'giving up': it is wisdom. Also, if 'conscience' isn't involved in the sort of music one is willing to perform, it should be!

Three honest questions, not just for MJO-
*To whom shall we go to ultimately determine what constitutes "poor music and liturgical usage?"
*Where is "astray" and what does that mean for each soul led there?
*Whose conscience(s) should be part of the deliberation of self-assessment?

*To whom shall we go to ultimately determine what constitutes "poor music and liturgical usage?"
*Whose conscience(s) should be part of the deliberation of self-assessment?

These both rest on the individual musician. Outside of certain pastoral circumstances, I consider willfully playing many particular songs (I shall not name them) in a liturgical context to be an immoral act on my part. That, by doing so, I am performing a very small but still evil act. "Sin"? Maybe not, but I still think it is wrong for me to do.

Other musicians may find that song "good enough", "not worth the fight", or even acceptable. And I encourage them to only be bounded by their own consciences. But to be in a position where I am required to willfully cooperate with the imposition of inferior and inappropriate music upon the liturgy is damaging to the soul. For that matter, I'm always amused by the voices screaming about this or that song being "heretical" - and we all know these same voices will on Sunday be singing those same songs into a microphone while playing!!

I say, act in accord only with your OWN conscience, properly formed, and not someone else's. But, at the same time, don't IGNORE your own conscience because "well at least I play hymns better than the other guy!"

Gavin, I was DoM in a situation like you mentioned in your post.

In response to a small group of (just happened to be) boomers, the pastor told me, "no Latin, no chant". This ruled out even English (or any vernacular) plainsong.

I sent a detailed, respectful letter with document quotes about why I felt I was called to implement sacred music as DoM in a Catholic parish. No response. After a few weeks I gently reminded him that he offered me a job because he heard my small Latin choir and loved the sound. No change in his ultimatum. I waited...

...and went along with it for a very long choral year before coming to the conclusion that God couldn't use me much there and that he wanted me somewhere else. I resigned my post on good terms, and I still maintain contact with that parish, and occasionally sub as cantor.

Five months after I quit, I was offered a job as DoM of a FSSP parish- for more hours, more responsibility, and quadruple the salary I had earned at the previous (and more wealthy) parish.

Sometimes I think it really is best to stay and brave the tide of revolving pastors, etc. One can often make gradual and important changes. In my case, I have no doubt that resigning was the best choice.

When your cardiologist tells you to decrease your stress levels. ;)

Sorry to renew such a long-forgotten thread, but I feel inclined to say that what Gavin mentioned at the start of this discussion is particularly noteworthy. Perhaps more recent threads have conversed about this (at length), but this one caught my eye.

It seems like my first post on this forum matched the exact description of Gavin:

I'm so glad to have found this forum, the CMAA, and the Colloquium! I love chant and polyphony, but the pastor, choir, and all the school staff wants bongos during communion and "Awesome God" for the psalm, and chained the organ console shut. How do I switch to the Graduale Romanum and Palestrina ordinaries?

Before I go any further, I urge people to realize that we are all human. I notice a common trend of ourselves being acerbic rather than academic at times in this forum, and want to be clear that I strive to serve God as fully as possible. If something I say isn't 100% doctrinally or theologically accurate, mea culpa. I literally started doing all this just 3 years ago. When I shared my story on the Lamentations and Observations of a Gregorian Greenhorn thread, I wasn't expecting any feedback at all, but was graced to receive nearly a dozen comments! However, I let the discussion sink because I accidentally used a motto that I misunderstood-and I guess it didn't mean what I thought it did. So, people informed me of my error in some gentle and some blunt ways.
Anyways, we all differ in various ways, but we share common goals: serving God in the ministry of music, learning more about our Catholic faith, and singing On Eagle's Wings (okay I jest on that last one).


These questions may have been asked plenty of times before, but please bear with me:

Is it hopeless to attempt introducing antiphons/plainsong/Latin at a parish that will likely be closed within a year?
For context, I serve as a volunteer about twice monthly at a rural parish with mass attendance around 90 people on a great day. They are decently musically inclined, but gravitate towards sacro-pop and any music from after 1965. They seem to do well with my introduction of basic Latin hymnody (Panis Angelicus, Pange Lingua (St. Thomas Tune), Adoro te Devote, etc...), but because of my irregular attendance-is it worth my time to teach more music if I'm not there every week and church closure is nigh? These people are the most welcoming congregation I know, and they have been fighting tooth-and-nail to keep the church open, despite the Pastor's willingness for it to close.

Is it ever worth it to return to a parish you previously served, but resigned from?
Once again, for context, I served as a volunteer for several months, then became paid for the next 2.5 years of ministry. I resigned from the Arcade Worship Site in May because I did not agree with the direction the choir was heading, and there was a weird democratic structure insomuch no DOM existed, but decisions were led by the senior citizen members. After I initiated and guided all the music for Lent this year, the organist prevented my leadership for the upcoming Easter season, and there were definitely elements of ageism that induced my resignation. The organist once said she'd retire in five years (this was in 2022), and I want to be the first to lead the choir after she departs - I hope that's not selfish, but that was my home parish for well over a decade, and I feel I can make some tangible positive changes. I'm on great terms with everybody in the St. Mary's choir except the current organist there. Also, we have been fortunate to have a priest from Poland in-residence at Arcade, so I aspire to learn the language and host a Polish Mass with music sometime (our church has a history of Polish priests). I'm on very good terms with the resident priest as well.
I really don't know if this is just a "look somewhere else" kind of situation or "God is giving you a trial, take it" situation.

Does anyone on this forum do music ministry full-time without any formal degree?
I am largely self-taught (not opposed to formal training though), and feel that has been a blessing and curse. Blessing: I get to learn new things experientially, and at my own pace. I can play whatever religious music I want whenever I want. Curse: I feel nobody takes me serious on a professional level because I don't have the paper evidence that I can play an instrument. Down the line, when I hope to apply for DOM positions, the only thing I can advertise is my years of experience hands-on and absolutely no collegiate music training. It seems that some sort of music degree is better than none, but since my intended career is in Nursing, there is no overlap in course load at all. I have formed connections in my Diocese to well-known pipe organists, and am trying to find someone that could teach me not only pipe organ, but other church music stuff.
They say never to share your dreams, but I feel better sharing this. My ultimate dream is to become the Director of Music &/or Principal Organist for a cathedral somewhere around the USA, and to have a very-motivated SATB choir that does plainsong, Latin, and polyphony. I keep my goals in check because that aforementioned dream is perhaps a lifetime journey. Currently, my plans are to pursue a healthcare profession to pay the eventual bills, but I feel more fulfilled in the ministry of music. Is there any hope to someday be a DOM, and not need to worry about financial stability?

It is possible to be full-time in a music director position without a music (or related degree) as I've done it for a fair number of years. It's going to be harder and you will need to take what you can get. In my case, I was fortunate to find a church that had no choir or organist period when I got the job so the only place to go was up. That said, I'm not necessarily recommending this as the way to go because I'm in this profession by accident and I certainly never planned to be a music director or organist of any sort. Sometimes God plans things for you and you just go with it.

@contemporaryworship92

TL;DR:
I’ve barely spoken to our pastor, and that’s on me—but it’s also complicated by the fact that our parish rotates priests weekly across a vast territory. I’m on good terms with the vicar forane and the Polish priest, both of whom support my vision for sacred music and liturgical integrity, especially the use of chant and propers. The pastor, however, avoids certain worship sites entirely and has made abrupt decisions that undermine collaborative efforts, which makes me hesitant to approach him. I’ve experienced moments where my musical contributions were dismissed or overridden, and while I don’t have any direct conflict with him, we’re stuck in a kind of limbo. I stepped back from one site due to politics, and I suspect he misunderstood that as a full resignation. Still, the congregation has been receptive to traditional music, and I remain hopeful that the pastor might secretly value it too. I plan to stay local for the next five years, and I believe a direct conversation could help clarify things and possibly reignite a path toward leadership and liturgical renewal—if I can inspire him to embrace the summit of sacred music.



Thank you for that idea. I never really discerned the situation in that light before. I am ashamed to say this, but I've barely spoken to the pastor. And I realize that's totally mea culpa.

The tough scenario is that the priests that say mass at my church are different every week. Sometimes the pastor of our family of parishes says mass (we cover around 400 square miles nowadays). Sometimes the resident priest from Poland says mass, and sometimes the vicar forane comes from 40 miles away to say mass!

I would say I'm on good terms with 2 out of those 3. Unfortunately, I am not well acquainted with the pastor because I never even know what Sundays he will say mass, thus, I don't see him often as I've been helping at other parishes simultaneously. I would say that I share a vision with both of those priests I mentioned. Whenever I serve at East Arcade, it is always the vicar forane saying mass, and because of his love of theology, we often end up talking about the liturgy after mass, and we have both agreed that the propers belong in the mass, and we should begin implementing them ASAP. When I serve at Holland, and the Polish Priest is there, he is always so friendly and supportive of the music ministry (especially on days when there's chant and latin), but I have not sat down to discuss things with him formally yet.

The issue I continually face is that the pastor is pretty clear that he doesn't like to be at Arcade or Holland. He swore to never say mass at East Arcade again - five months in, it still holds up. I really want to talk to the pastor about music, but I don't wanna lie - I'm quite intimidated. It's not that I'm scared of him, it's more that I'm scared of how quickly he executes decisions, especially when they contradict what the majority voted for. As an example, I helped craft a new mass schedule in this former liturgy committee, and in seconds, he destroyed the work we spent hours doing. I also spoke to him before the Easter Sunday morning mass, and I asked if it would be alright that I proclaimed the Sequence in Latin (I emphasized this took me lots of time to rehearse), and then he instantly rejected me and sang it in Latin simultaneous with me - and in all respect, Fr. is not a strong singer whatsoever.
It's the culmination of these little events that worry me about trying to further my musical involvement. The pastor will likely be around for many years to come, and I'm honestly not willing to collaborate with the antagonistic bluntness I've witnessed.


Sorry for the barrage of anecdotes there. In short, I don't have any disagreements presently with the pastor, but I don't have any agreements either. We're in this conversational limbo. I resigned from the Arcade Worship Site because of church politics, and I think Fr. mistook that as a resignation from all parish worship sites. So, any time he sees me before or after mass, it's like a deer-in-the-headlights moment. The congregation is definitely not a major obstacle. When I played pre-Vatican II hymns and Latin at Arcade, it was incredibly well-received. I was only receiving about one "Lead me, Lord" request per month. My optimism tells me that the pastor secretly has a vision for sacred music returning to mass, and that Gregorian Chant is always subtly playing in the rectory, and that Fr keeps a copy of the Liber Usualis in his back pocket for emergencies - maybe it's just optimism though.

Final paragraph, I promise.
I see myself staying local to the parish for at least the next five years, so I guess a lot can happen in that time. Who knows, maybe I could reassume a leadership position at Arcade. What I'm dealing with now is just the mess of the Diocesan Road to Renewal, and the tangle of church dynamics in general. @contemporaryworship92 Perhaps scheduling a meeting with this pastor would clear the dust so I can stop speculating and start learning firsthand. I know that the other two priests would support my mission, but the pastor gets the final say-so, no matter what the other two will say - I have to succeed in inspiring the pastor to the summit of sacred music. The mass remains partially horizontal with sacro-pop, I believe singing plainsong and the propers would elevate our focus to be more vertical.

I got my first full time DOM job after I finished my MM. I gave it up after one year.

When the pastor hired me, they'd been without a DOM for a year. He had specific expectations of a candidate and I just so happened to check the boxes. It was a boost in my morale at the time. All that said, the situation I inherited turned out way worse than I was led on to believe.

The program had to be completely rebuilt from scratch. The pastor and I worked together to try and draw interest, recruit, but nothing worked. During one recruitment, everyone laughed at me. At a ministry fair, I got the brunt of passive-aggressive sarcasm from old guard parishioners and 0 sign-ups. From what I gathered, the music director before me left a bad taste in their mouths. I think when I arrived, they concluded preemptively I was just going to be a repeat and so they mostly ignored me.

The final straw was the closing of the parish school. The legacy families rode the pastor out of town on a rail. After taking a week off following Easter, I reflected and prayed about things, and realized, if our efforts as a staff to save the school failed, I can't expect my efforts to make a good music program to succeed, especially in light of my lukewarm reception.

So, I quit. Thanks be to God, I found a decent job closer to home that's ok for now.

There is merit to sticking it out, but sometimes, you have to quit for your own good.

I have often thought there needs to be a secret organization that can dispatch pastors to the Land of Nod where they can no longer do any damage, spend the parish into debt, or teach self-aggrandizing nonsense. Oh well. Dream on.

Our ancestors could do it but the civil authorities protect them these days. Although a little tar and feathers would do some of them good.

You are quite correct that all it takes to destroy a music program that took years to build, is a new pastor and one week.

a little tar and feathers would do some of them good.

I was thinking some tough gents of the Diocese of Charlotte might want to consider this tactic

Thanks all for this gold mine of a thread. It's helping my mental game a lot.

My attitude is just leave when they stop paying you, or become likely to just fire you. I don't have much of a dog in the fight for convincing a parish or Cathedral about what they should want; that's like hanging a donut in front of a toddler and asking them to eat boiled broccoli. Instead, it's all about finding out as best possible in advance what their vision is and seeing how I can help them. Meanwhile, I just send my wife and kids to whatever FSSP parish the town has and stay professional. Back when I was a bachelor, a Tuesday afternoon Low Mass was enough to keep me rooted spiritually. Professionalism is supposed to help the church I'm serving way more than me, even if they don't always realize it.

Always keep other irons in the fire and keep the resume brushed up, because even the best scenarios can randomly go belly-up for no reason in days, as I'm sure many in CMAA and CRCCM can attest. Have your six months' expenses saved up and keep an eye on the job listings at agohq.org, catholicjobs.com (rare truffles in there,) and here.

Didn't the CMAA just start a mentorship program? I recall reading something about it.

I used to spend hours alone in church practicing chant too. On that note you should consider if you have a vocation to the religious life.

Davido

Sidebar question: I have close family south of ROC and will likely be relocating there in the next couple of years. Where are the solid music programs? (During my visits, I usually end up at St Louis in Pittsford or the Abbey of The Genesee.)

Thank you.

My advice would be to reach out to local groups like the AGO to see what scholarships might be available.

This is good advice. I found myself in a similar situation (wanting to grow, but needing mentorship) and I ended up being awarded a scholarship with the RCCO. I am now studying organ with said scholarship, and it's been a blessing.

You NEVER give up.

You NEVER give in.

But you must ALWAYS give…

No matter the cost.



Give them truth.

Give them beauty.

Give them goodness.



In giving you will receive…

From God alone…



And even if you give your life…

And in the end they take it all from you…

You will have done…

What Christ would also do.

One final note that I've not hinted but not directly brought this up to my priest because he's the only one of 800+ family parish and students and we're both worn out after weekend Masses. Trying to speak to him weekdays is a challenge because he usually has 5-7 appointments a day, plus the parish admin is kind of gatekeeping his availability, especially to other staff.

What the priest is trying to do is absolutely correct. It is exhausting and unsustainable to be on call to anyone at any time for any reason.

But the administrator has made a mistake.

A pastor should have regular meeting hours with all of his staff. This will keep them on the same page as he is, and that is precisely what allows them to manage lower level situations on his behalf, thus reducing his overall workload and number of meetings.

It will also have the nice effect of making his meetings to be primarily with the people he has hired and therefore will treat him well, and reducing meetings with hostile parishioners that could’ve been handled by lower level staff.

This allows him to be a more attentive, less bitter father and shepherd to his flock and make the best use of his HR.

From the music point of view, it's the same old song as in other forums (Haugen/Haas/Schutte are revered, everything else is viewed "ultra-conservative"). I've been told time and time again from some parishioners that this is the DNA of the parish.

I've heard this, and similar sentiments time and again. I have found that if we TEACH people, they are (typically, though not always) willing to be led. I've spent the last two years putting "music minutes" in the worship aids whenever I can fit them. Little quotes from Sacrosanctum Concilium, Musicam Sacram, Tra le Sollicitudini, the GIRM, and the like. The very common remark that I get is, "I had no idea; no one has ever taught us this stuff before." One man recently even expressed to me that he was not so sure when I first started sharing these things, but as time has gone on, the logic of it all has dawned on him, and experiencing the better music has made him no longer desire the schlep. All that to say: I think one of the reasons that some parishes fail to turn things around is because there is no catechesis. Music minutes, bulletin columns, sermons, and getting up before the congregation before masses are all essential, IMHO, if you're going to onboard people. They need to know why you're doing what you're doing. The only way that they can think that you're trying to sneak in elements of the TLM is if they've never been taught that these are the things that the council either asked for or mandated to be retained, so you're not making it up or doing it on your own whim: it's informed by the directives of the council itself. This is an absolute world-changer for some people.