I have a dumb question about playing the organ
  • AbbysmumAbbysmum
    Posts: 113
    I have a dumb question and I won't see my organ teacher again until the New Year. For context, I'm a piano player who has made the transition to organ a few years ago, and started semi-regular lessons earlier this year.

    How does one know when to stop playing?

    (I told you it was a dumb question lol)

    In piano, I was taught to listen to the sound decay - it creates plateaus as the sympathetic frequencies meet and interact. You try to catch those plateaus to make the sound "complete". This is especially relevant when you have a bit of rubato, or a fermata, or something else that makes the time count less relevant.

    But I never seem to know when to make the sound stop on an organ. I know it needs to be clean i.e. pick up all my limbs at the same time, and sometimes it seems desirable to lift at the same time as the choir, but other times I feel like I want to go a bit longer. But how long is too long??

    Can someone(s) give me a few pointers in this regard?
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  • francis
    Posts: 11,181
    I think this is a question of relativity, musical artistry, emotion of the moment… perhaps can you give a few specific examples?
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  • davido
    Posts: 1,153
    For hymn playing and congregational service music, I like to hold the final note a little past whe. The congregation ends singing.
    For choral pieces, it is sometimes good to end with the singers, depends on the anthem.
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,491
    vibes
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  • DavidOLGCDavidOLGC
    Posts: 119
    One of my music teachers said that much of the artistry in organ playing is in the release of the note...since the attack of the note is not controllable the way it is on a piano.
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  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,542
    This is not a dumb question. I agree with Davido. It is strange to me to hear the voices of the congregation holding a note and the organist has ended. I would rather the organist hold a bit longer, but not so much longer that it seems ostentatious. There really is no perfect answer, but will require a bit of experimentation. I would also ask a trusted person in the congregation their opinion. They may say that they didn't notice, which is your aim. I was visiting another parish yesterday with a stellar organist and I didn't notice his lifts because he is so skilled. But there have been many times when it is bothersome.

    I also agree that when playing for a motet, the timing is a little different, but it depends on the work, choir and the acoustic. Again, just pay attention and be open to suggestions from people you trust.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,221
    Yeah and your perspective as a chorister might be that it is too long but it sounds differently up front and the priest or someone else with trust and authority may have mentioned it. Or not, and it’s perceived as too long by everyone but holding a bit is what I expect.
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  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,542
    Yeah and your perspective as a chorister might be that it is too long but it sounds differently up front and the priest or someone else with trust and authority may have mentioned it. Or not, and it’s perceived as too long by everyone but holding a bit is what I expect.


    Agreed. Choristers' perspectives aren't always best.
  • AbbysmumAbbysmum
    Posts: 113
    For hymn playing and congregational service music, I like to hold the final note a little past whe. The congregation ends singing.
    For choral pieces, it is sometimes good to end with the singers, depends on the anthem.


    I think I'm instinctively doing this a lot, but I was second-guessing myself.

    One of my music teachers said that much of the artistry in organ playing is in the release of the note...since the attack of the note is not controllable the way it is on a piano.


    I'd believe that!

    It is strange to me to hear the voices of the congregation holding a note and the organist has ended.


    I have to agree there. It would be ... unsettling?

    would also ask a trusted person in the congregation their opinion. They may say that they didn't notice, which is your aim.

    Yeah and your perspective as a chorister might be that it is too long but it sounds differently up front and the priest or someone else with trust and authority may have mentioned it.

    Agreed. Choristers' perspectives aren't always best.


    All very sage advice/perspective, thanks!



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  • AbbysmumAbbysmum
    Posts: 113
    Another question - would it be different if it were Baroque vs Romantic repertoire? Even playing solo, would I have to be more precise with Baroque and/or earlier rep than later stuff, where loosey-goosey is more of a mood?
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,542
    Another question - would it be different if it were Baroque vs Romantic repertoire? Even playing solo, would I have to be more precise with Baroque and/or earlier rep than later stuff, where loosey-goosey is more of a mood?


    If you can't get lessons I would suggest listening to expert organists online. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUXZIyrGiEE or https://www.nationalshrine.org/mass/ etc.
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  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 610
    It is strange to me to hear the voices of the congregation holding a note and the organist has ended.

    It’s frustrating when you’re down in the pews singing from the hymnal and the choir and organist start adding fermate to quarter notes at the end of phrases. Some of us can read music.
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  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,542
    It’s frustrating when you’re down in the pews singing from the hymnal and the choir and organist start adding fermate to quarter notes at the end of phrase


    lol... Let's fight about this!
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  • davido
    Posts: 1,153
    That is performance practice. Some hymn tunes, especially the German chorales, get that lengthening on the last note of a phrase.
    Thanked by 5canadash CHGiffen NihilNominis Abbysmum Roborgelmeister
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 610
    Some hymn tunes, especially the German chorales, get that lengthening on the last note of a phrase.

    This was On Jordan’s Bank today.
    Thanked by 2Abbysmum Bobby Bolin
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 1,067
    To the OP - great question. E.g. — if I’m playing a solo piece with a trem, I take the trem off at the end and wait for the shakes to stop, then let it lock in until satisfying on a physical level before releasing,

    Generally it’s all kind of like that — the louder and deeper what I’m playing is, the more true this becomes...

    I “feel” the sound, wait for it to “lock in”, and wait for the physical experience of the consonance to “put my body and soul in tune”, and then I release.

    My organ is “sort of in a temperament”. C major is exceptionally pure. I just let that hang in the air for days. It does good for the soul.
    Thanked by 3Abbysmum CHGiffen Chant_Supremacist
  • AbbysmumAbbysmum
    Posts: 113

    If you can't get lessons I would suggest listening to expert organists online. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUXZIyrGiEE or https://www.nationalshrine.org/mass/ etc.


    I have a teacher, but he is 200+km away and I only see him sporadically when I can make the 2.5 hour drive. I won't see him until the New Year now with Christmas so close, but had burning questions lol.

    My organ is “sort of in a temperament”. C major is exceptionally pure. I just let that hang in the air for days. It does good for the soul.


    I never considered that! Things in D major/B minor sound particularly satisfying on our organ, but never wondered why until now.

    Some hymn tunes, especially the German chorales, get that lengthening on the last note of a phrase.


    This was On Jordan’s Bank today.


    Ugh, I know.
  • Chant_Supremacist
    Posts: 229
    In practice, and this goes for singing too and other instruments, I think people who don’t feel fully confident and comfortable tend to end a little quickly. (Leaving aside pieces where the intention may be to end suddenly and dramatically, though off the top I can’t think of any examples from sacred organ repertoire.) So for you, on the organ, part of the answer right now might be to hold just a little bit longer than you are. I think the real answer is, as someone already put it, “vibes,” but we have to feel very secure to sense them properly.

    On the frequent fermata digression (and the related “adding rests after phrases” problem), the drive and sweep of the rhythm is often key to the music’s effect, especially when it’s driving to a melodic point. I am pretty big on keeping the rhythm going in strophic hymns unless there’s a true gathering point or of course the end of a verse. But sometimes it can feel like it’s part of the rhythm, so for instance you sometimes hear Creator of the Stars of Night with an added rest at every phrase, which I don’t personally do (just one in the middle) but wouldn’t impugn either.
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  • RoborgelmeisterRoborgelmeister
    Posts: 312
    The release must always be in rhythm. Look at the cut off marks in some mid 20th century Sherwin edition anthems.
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  • AbbysmumAbbysmum
    Posts: 113
    The release must always be in rhythm. Look at the cut off marks in some mid 20th century Sherwin edition anthems.


    Intriguing. Why? Or can you point to me a resource that would explain that?
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