I have a dumb question about playing the organ

Abbysmum

I have a dumb question and I won't see my organ teacher again until the New Year. For context, I'm a piano player who has made the transition to organ a few years ago, and started semi-regular lessons earlier this year.

How does one know when to stop playing?

(I told you it was a dumb question lol)

In piano, I was taught to listen to the sound decay - it creates plateaus as the sympathetic frequencies meet and interact. You try to catch those plateaus to make the sound "complete". This is especially relevant when you have a bit of rubato, or a fermata, or something else that makes the time count less relevant.

But I never seem to know when to make the sound stop on an organ. I know it needs to be clean i.e. pick up all my limbs at the same time, and sometimes it seems desirable to lift at the same time as the choir, but other times I feel like I want to go a bit longer. But how long is too long??

Can someone(s) give me a few pointers in this regard?

francis

I think this is a question of relativity, musical artistry, emotion of the moment… perhaps can you give a few specific examples?

davido

For hymn playing and congregational service music, I like to hold the final note a little past whe. The congregation ends singing.
For choral pieces, it is sometimes good to end with the singers, depends on the anthem.

Adam Wood

vibes

DavidOLGC

One of my music teachers said that much of the artistry in organ playing is in the release of the note...since the attack of the note is not controllable the way it is on a piano.

canadash

This is not a dumb question. I agree with Davido. It is strange to me to hear the voices of the congregation holding a note and the organist has ended. I would rather the organist hold a bit longer, but not so much longer that it seems ostentatious. There really is no perfect answer, but will require a bit of experimentation. I would also ask a trusted person in the congregation their opinion. They may say that they didn't notice, which is your aim. I was visiting another parish yesterday with a stellar organist and I didn't notice his lifts because he is so skilled. But there have been many times when it is bothersome.

I also agree that when playing for a motet, the timing is a little different, but it depends on the work, choir and the acoustic. Again, just pay attention and be open to suggestions from people you trust.

MatthewRoth

Yeah and your perspective as a chorister might be that it is too long but it sounds differently up front and the priest or someone else with trust and authority may have mentioned it. Or not, and it’s perceived as too long by everyone but holding a bit is what I expect.

canadash

Yeah and your perspective as a chorister might be that it is too long but it sounds differently up front and the priest or someone else with trust and authority may have mentioned it. Or not, and it’s perceived as too long by everyone but holding a bit is what I expect.

Agreed. Choristers' perspectives aren't always best.

Abbysmum

For hymn playing and congregational service music, I like to hold the final note a little past whe. The congregation ends singing.
For choral pieces, it is sometimes good to end with the singers, depends on the anthem.

I think I'm instinctively doing this a lot, but I was second-guessing myself.

One of my music teachers said that much of the artistry in organ playing is in the release of the note...since the attack of the note is not controllable the way it is on a piano.

I'd believe that!

It is strange to me to hear the voices of the congregation holding a note and the organist has ended.

I have to agree there. It would be ... unsettling?

would also ask a trusted person in the congregation their opinion. They may say that they didn't notice, which is your aim.

Yeah and your perspective as a chorister might be that it is too long but it sounds differently up front and the priest or someone else with trust and authority may have mentioned it.

Agreed. Choristers' perspectives aren't always best.

All very sage advice/perspective, thanks!

Abbysmum

Another question - would it be different if it were Baroque vs Romantic repertoire? Even playing solo, would I have to be more precise with Baroque and/or earlier rep than later stuff, where loosey-goosey is more of a mood?

canadash

Another question - would it be different if it were Baroque vs Romantic repertoire? Even playing solo, would I have to be more precise with Baroque and/or earlier rep than later stuff, where loosey-goosey is more of a mood?

If you can't get lessons I would suggest listening to expert organists online. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUXZIyrGiEE or https://www.nationalshrine.org/mass/ etc.

SponsaChristi

It is strange to me to hear the voices of the congregation holding a note and the organist has ended.

It’s frustrating when you’re down in the pews singing from the hymnal and the choir and organist start adding fermate to quarter notes at the end of phrases. Some of us can read music.

canadash

It’s frustrating when you’re down in the pews singing from the hymnal and the choir and organist start adding fermate to quarter notes at the end of phrase

lol... Let's fight about this!

davido

That is performance practice. Some hymn tunes, especially the German chorales, get that lengthening on the last note of a phrase.

SponsaChristi

Some hymn tunes, especially the German chorales, get that lengthening on the last note of a phrase.

This was On Jordan’s Bank today.

NihilNominis

To the OP - great question. E.g. — if I’m playing a solo piece with a trem, I take the trem off at the end and wait for the shakes to stop, then let it lock in until satisfying on a physical level before releasing,

Generally it’s all kind of like that — the louder and deeper what I’m playing is, the more true this becomes...

I “feel” the sound, wait for it to “lock in”, and wait for the physical experience of the consonance to “put my body and soul in tune”, and then I release.

My organ is “sort of in a temperament”. C major is exceptionally pure. I just let that hang in the air for days. It does good for the soul.

Abbysmum

If you can't get lessons I would suggest listening to expert organists online. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUXZIyrGiEE or https://www.nationalshrine.org/mass/ etc.

I have a teacher, but he is 200+km away and I only see him sporadically when I can make the 2.5 hour drive. I won't see him until the New Year now with Christmas so close, but had burning questions lol.

My organ is “sort of in a temperament”. C major is exceptionally pure. I just let that hang in the air for days. It does good for the soul.

I never considered that! Things in D major/B minor sound particularly satisfying on our organ, but never wondered why until now.

Some hymn tunes, especially the German chorales, get that lengthening on the last note of a phrase.

This was On Jordan’s Bank today.

Ugh, I know.

Chant_Supremacist

In practice, and this goes for singing too and other instruments, I think people who don’t feel fully confident and comfortable tend to end a little quickly. (Leaving aside pieces where the intention may be to end suddenly and dramatically, though off the top I can’t think of any examples from sacred organ repertoire.) So for you, on the organ, part of the answer right now might be to hold just a little bit longer than you are. I think the real answer is, as someone already put it, “vibes,” but we have to feel very secure to sense them properly.

On the frequent fermata digression (and the related “adding rests after phrases” problem), the drive and sweep of the rhythm is often key to the music’s effect, especially when it’s driving to a melodic point. I am pretty big on keeping the rhythm going in strophic hymns unless there’s a true gathering point or of course the end of a verse. But sometimes it can feel like it’s part of the rhythm, so for instance you sometimes hear Creator of the Stars of Night with an added rest at every phrase, which I don’t personally do (just one in the middle) but wouldn’t impugn either.

Roborgelmeister

The release must always be in rhythm. Look at the cut off marks in some mid 20th century Sherwin edition anthems.

Abbysmum

The release must always be in rhythm. Look at the cut off marks in some mid 20th century Sherwin edition anthems.

Intriguing. Why? Or can you point to me a resource that would explain that?

searchfgold6789

You're mainly asking about touch, which is a topic you should bring up with your teacher. It takes a long time to master touch, and moreover the touch required to achieve the desired sounding result will change from instrument to instrument.

If you're using a good organ method, it should have a section about touch for different types of repertoire. You can also find in-depth literature specific to the type of rep you're working on, such as Laukvik's Historical Performance Practice in Organ Playing. T. Tertius Noble wrote about the topic for hymn-playing in the preface to his 100 reharms. Don't take his word as the final authority, but use it to inform your own opinion for your church.

You also asked about cutoffs. As far as accompaniment goes, I can offer some general advice. Keep cutoffs consistent and in rhythm, but don't necessarily obey the score's note values automatically. For hymns, a good rule of thumb is to extend the final note's rhythmic value by half, but include a one-beat rest, unless the tune begins with a partial measure. Sing several hymns with a metronome while playing to get the hang of this. For congregational gregorian chant, opinions vary, but I like to keep final note durations pretty long, about four neumes worth of time on the final note plus two rests. However, I'm open to correction on this and it depends on the situation. For scholas, use solesmes style rhythm generally (final note = two rhythmic units) and don't get too much in the way.

Anthems are usually treated like repertoire, so obey the score's given duration and watch the conductor. Advanced move I learned from Martin Baker: release the organ one microsecond before the choir is cut off so that the overtones from the vocal offset ring out into the acoustic.

As a final note, never let the congregation take the wheel when it comes to timing of anything. They are in the passengers seat and will lose confidence in the driver if they get the sense that you're relying on them instead of merely adjusting to their needs.

ServiamScores

You're mainly asking about touch, which is a topic you should bring up with your teacher. It takes a long time to master touch, and moreover the touch required to achieve the desired sounding result will change from instrument to instrument.

and just as importantly: room to room. How you articulate in a dry vs. wet acoustic changes the calculus drastically. And, of course, you’re limited to some degree by electric actions, whereas there’s much greater latitude with trackers (*IF they are well regulated).

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