Divine Worship: The Missal -- Questions
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    1. Is it available someplace?

    2. Does it include the Divine Office? (And, if not, what is the normative book for celebrating the office according to the Anglican Use?)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I answered my first question:

    http://www.ctsbooks.org/divine-worship-the-missal

    There needs to be a study edition...
    And a free PDF...


    Still wondering about (2).
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    Adam -
    I see that you did answer your first question. As of now, the only edition available is the altar edition, which you may purchase for $500.

    There is also a book of occasional ritual offices - baptism, burial, nuptials, etc.

    There is a pew edition in preparation. Just when it will be available I don't know. Apparently our bishop wants it to include at least some hymnody.

    The office is not yet available, but will eventually be a companion to Divine Worship:The Missal. Probably something like Divine Worship:The Office. Meanwhile the Book of Divine Worship remains normative for the office.

    I might add that, also, a revision of the Anglican Use Gradual is also in progress. This will result in its conformation to the official language and particular propers of DW:TM. The language is basically that of Palmer-Burgess with some tweaking here and there.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen chonak
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,937
    The Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham is also authorized for the office.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Meanwhile the Book of Divine Worship remains normative for the office.


    Excellent. (Rite I only, I assume...)
    Also, I have a PDF of that.
    (And the Office is what I'm working on at the moment. So GREAT.)

    There is a pew edition in preparation.


    That's good.
    Just curious: Do Anglican-Use Catholics tend to want to follow the Prayerbook in hand?


    Apparently our bishop wants it to include at least some hymnody.


    Again, just curious...

    Why?

    Would that supplant the 1940?

    And would the pew edition be just the Mass, or would it be more like a BCP, with the Mass and Office?


    The Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham is also authorized for the office.


    Great book!

    Authorized by whom?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,937
    It’s been used in England & Wales, if not here as well. Mgr. Burnham was in charge, and I believe Mgr. Newton approved it.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    I'm really not clear on what, if any, hymnody is envisioned for the pew missal. What I 'heard' was that the bishop wanted it to include hymns. A more authoritative source told me that the bishop wants us to have an ordinariate hymnal. If done well, as I'm sure it would be, this would be the hymnal worthy to succeed the 1940, and would certainly have great appeal to intelligent Catholics everywhere. As for a 'BCP' styled mass-office-psalter- rituale pew book, I don't have the impression that this is thought of. Besides, the office is still being compiled.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,703
    @MatthewRoth

    I thought the customary had been published online?

    Have just checked, see here,

    http://www.ordinariate.org.uk/resources/liturgy_ordinariate.php

    Thanked by 2CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,937
    Free!!! Yes!
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,703
    @MatthewRoth

    Have just looked through this book again, have you noticed when the ember days are celebrated!
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I hope that they're going to retain the Coverdale Psalter (which, IIRC, is actually pre-Reformation) and not go to something like the Grail.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood M. Jackson Osborn
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    Fear not!
    Coverdale is institutional with us.

    Why Grail is even heard of is beyond me.
    Even the 'contemporary' psalter in the '79 BCP is better for singing than nearly any other modern version.
    Something about Anglicans and English and singing!
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen Adam Wood Salieri
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,937
    @tomjaw yes, I know, they (******) it up, because commemorations are impermissible in the new rite.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,703
    Our choir sings at an Ordinariate church in London once a week (Wednesdays) but we don't have the DW:TM we have E.F. pre-55... usually Solemn High Mass. We also sing most of the EF Feasts that fall during the week in the same church.

    The advantage of the E.F. is we can do all the things the Ordinariate wanted but did not get given...
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • stulte
    Posts: 355
    @tomjaw - I certainly prefer the EF over the OU and wish the OU had a provision to be offered entirely in Latin (that was one missing thing among others that kept me from joining). I'm curious though what you mean about your comment about things that can be done in the EF that can't be in the OU. Thanks.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,937
    @tomjaw - I know Fr. Law offered that Mass regularly, and I know you sing at the St. Mary Moorfields Mass as well.

    @stulte - what he means is, for example, the proper Ember Days. They were moved to the first week of Advent in order to not conflict at Vespers when the "O" antiphons begin, since the quarter-tense days and the antiphons will conflict. The problem is that it doesn't follow any historical pattern: Lucy, Ashy, Pentecost, and Holy Rood is the pattern, although the 1962 missal (due to changes in the Brev. Romanum) substantially messes up the placement of the September Ember Days. They also can only use one collect & one of the old readings.

    You also have a situation where communities were doing pretty much full Tridentine ceremony with the missal or BCP as Anglicans and yet, due to the wishes of a few, this is rubrically ambiguous, since options are left open to a wide range of ceremonial but it says to default to the GIRM. So, what does a subdeacon do? Does he sing the Epistle and prepare the chalice with the other ministers but not hold the paten? Can he use the humeral veil?

    There's no provision for the silent Canon Missae, nor are there the proper rubrics for the same. Except for the possible exception of the Te igitur, I believe the rubrics follow the Novus Ordo. OK, there's the twofold genuflection at the elevation, but I meant the signs of the Cross.

    Why don't deacons wear maniples in the Ordinariate churches when the celebrant does? Mt. Calvary in Baltimore always used them, but then the draft of DW: TM came out, and the deacons apparently stopped, though they did much more ceremonial until recently.

    Once again it seems certain American factions win out...I know, English Anglo-Catholics were, for a time, Ultramontanists and basically did the Brompton-style Novus Ordo because, like the rest of us, they thought the TLM was suppressed, but several leading Ordinariate figures (Mgr. Burnham, who is the liturgy lead for the Ordinariates worldwide, among them) preferred the Tridentine ceremonial, so I'm curious to see why it wasn't allowed ad libitum.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    I attended the AO Solemn Mass at the end of Sacra Liturgia, and was just a bit surprised that no one sang along. They used the Tone VI Alleluia that we used at Walsingham in Houston, and I tried to sing along, as did Jenny Donelson and David Hughes who were sitting with me. It felt awkward to be the only ones singing. I also attended a number of Latin Masses in London, and one in Dublin, during my 3-week/4-weekend trip, with similar experiences. The main thing I noticed at almost all of these Masses was the lesser involvement of the congregation singing. (And even speaking at EF Low Mass, but that's another post.) Then it occurred to me - via my fairly large hymnal collection - the difference between US and UK Liturgies, both Catholic and Anglican. Consider that NONE of the UK hymnals have ever had a single setting of the Ordinary/Communion Setting, while ALL of the US hymnals HAVE included them. So, the custom of the congregation joining in on the parts of the Mass, not just the hymns, is a part of American Liturgical tradition, while the strong choir is just as much a part of English Liturgical tradition. This also means that the US Anglican Patrimony DOES include more congregational singing, and therefore SHOULD be included, even if considered optional in the UK and other Ordinariates.

    I must also state that congregational singing of the parts of the Mass is strong in some UK parishes, like the Oratory (maybe all Oratories) and that many UK Catholics know some parts of the Latin Ordinaries by heart. I don't know how many UK Ordinariate folks are used to singing anything like Merbecke. I think it would also be a good thing for all US Catholics, Latin and Ordinariate, to consider letting their choirs, at least occasionally, sing or chant more parts of the Mass, and thereby allow more of the congregations to experience deep, inward participation.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,937
    My experience with English trads is quite a bit different.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    My experience is not extensive, but includes both EF and OF Masses with the use of Gregorian Orindaries. I was very impressed at St. Mary's Cathedral in Edinburgh back in 2010, on the Feast of the Assumption, when the choir sang parts of a Communion Setting by Harold Darke, but the congregation joined in on the Credo I. Yes, that's Credo I, not III! And all that was in the worship aid for the day was the Latin text - no notation, either square or modern! This past July I was at an OF High Mass with Ordinary by L. Mozart, but the congregation chanted the Credo III in alternation with the choir. I know there are congregations that can and do sing.

    I also found out that the British Bishops had decided, as a group, that Pope Pius XII's request for people to participate more fully in the Dialog Mass, and singing their parts in the High Mass, was unanimously looked upon as "innovation" and not passed on to the people as the Pope had requested. Hence, many EF congregations really don't participate that much - from their own recent tradition.

    I think that middle ground can be reached between the opposites.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,703
    @MatthewRoth Sadly Fr. Law has returned to the Far East... But the Rector is more than happy to say the E.F. Other priests regularly come along so we can usually have a Solemn Mass. For the birthday of the Rector (feast of the Precious Blood) we had an extra Mass, something that cannot be done in the O.F. or DW:TM.

    N.B. I am told that DW:TM was imposed by Rome for the good of the whole church... Anyway members of the Ordinariate that like Ritual or even the 'English Missal' are continuing their former practice. Also some members are more than happy to say the E.F.

    @stulte Mainly the celebrating of feasts, The Bishops of England and Wales have moved a few feasts to Sundays, but their request does not apply to the E.F. so we can celebrate Epiphany, Ascension, Corpus Christi on the correct days. We can also more easily celebrate the feasts of the Saints in the E.F.
    Of course the added ceremonial is an important plus.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,937
    I know he did! It made me sad as well. I want ask Mgr. Burnham personally what people ought to do. I know this will be helpful within several communities.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • moderntradmoderntrad
    Posts: 49
    Are there concrete plans for the Ordinariate Hymnal to be published? Is this like in the 10-year plan or sooner? Later?
  • stulte
    Posts: 355
    @MatthewRoth I don't know your location, but Msgr. Burnham's email is listed in the OOLW's newsletter if you'd like to ask him. http://www.portalmag.co.uk/read-online.html
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,937
    Ooh, thanks.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    .
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,703
    @MatthewRoth see this,
    http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.ch/2016/08/meet-on-monday.html

    Sadly I will still be in Switzerland... I suspect they are using the E.F. as the Ordinariate will be following the N.O. practice in England of transferring the feast to the Sunday. As the Ordo (see below) suggests.
    http://www.ordinariate.org.uk/cmsAdmin/uploads/ordo_2016.pdf

    I wonder what Propers they will use...
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    ...what propers...

    The propers are those stipulated in DW:TM.
    These are Palmer-Burgess ones.
    The P-B book offers three choices:
    1) Roman Use before 1951
    2) Roman Use after 1951
    3) Use of Salisbury

    Those stipulated in DW:TM are taken from both of the Roman Use versions.
    I had hoped that we would, naturally, use the Sarum ones, but these are not the ones required by our missal. To me, this is an inexcusable and irksome oversight. But! At least we have propers - and cannot not have them!
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,937
    Jackson, the Mass is probably sponsored by Juventutem London, whose members, at least the liturgically–minded ones, prefer the pre–Pius XII liturgy, so there is a chance they will sing Mass “Gaudeamus.”
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen tomjaw
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,369
    Bump- CTS in England is publishing a study edition of DW the Missal in April at £65.
    Appears to be the same pagination as their altar version, here.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    What many of us are waiting eagerly for is the pew-sized version. One such is said to be planned but there is no evidence of it yet.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,369
    What I think you don't need is something like the CTS Daily Missal Pew edition. It's the same height and breadth as the study edition Missal (both OF and DW), but much thicker* (and hence heavier), because it includes the lectionary. Maybe after 300 years stability there might be editions comparable to the pocket BCP (under 3¼" by 4¾", and an inch thick with Hymns Ancient and Modern included)
    [EDIT] *3440 pages
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • nigelmcbain
    Posts: 6
    The Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of the Southern Cross is currently using the Draft Office for Mattins, Terce, Sext, None, Evensong, and optional Compline, ad experimentum until it gets its Roman approval. It has been included in this year's Ordo 2019. You can buy a copy from Lulu.com here: http://www.lulu.com/shop/nigel-mcbain/ordo-2019-for-the-personal-ordinariate-of-our-lady-of-the-southern-cross/hardcover/product-23904080.html
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
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