This is sort of off topic, but I find Adore te devote pretty irritating at this point. I would have serious issues with listening to it at Communion every single Sunday. (My usual Latin Rite Masses are in the 1962 Rite, so it's not the Latin that's the issue.)

Lots of people are on board with this do one thing over and over way of introducing music, but I think it provides a little relief for not much loss of learning to do at least 2 things over and over.

That is one of the most SINGABLE and balanced programs I've ever seen.

....and the other various positive comments on the music: Thank you! I am actually shocked to hear such a positive response. But I'm glad that, at least among musicians, what I am trying to do is clear.

I would have serious issues with listening to it at Communion every single Sunday.

And I as well. Which is why, although it is scheduled as the Post-Communion every week, we don't always get to it. It is only there when necessary. I recently found out that Adoro te was singled out as a hymn that they don't know and can't sing.... As far as I can tell, no one complained about the Latin. The just feel like they don't know it... even after two months.

Overall, as much as I am frustrated, the main issue is quite simple: Find out what the congregation knows. I thought I knew based on a few people that had carried over from the old DM, but apparently that was wrong. I am frustrated because of how blown out of proportion this is.... Latin was NOT the issue.

I found out today from another member that the Latin was brought up within the context of our "Family Mass" and that the children should not be singing in languages that are foreign to them and that they can't comprehend. 1) We haven't used Latin since Lent at the family Mass. 2) Here we go making assumptions about what the "youth" want. If they came to a rehearsal, they would see us painstakingly going through translation and pronunciation. They would also see the kids ASKING for the Latin. Since they returned in September, they have been begging for the Agnus Dei XVIII to come back because "Lent music is our favorite." They have even been chanting the Holy, Holy, Mystery of Faith, and amen (complete with the entire Doxology from memory.)

I have to remember that the Pastor went to bat for me at the meeting, for the most part, and that really, the situation has a fairly simple solution which I am more than willing to explore. But I can't get past this nagging feeling that I no longer report to the Pastor.

the children should not be singing in languages that are foreign to them and that they can't comprehend.

That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard anyone say about anything and it almost makes me sick to my stomach to think about someone actually saying that sort of thing seriously.

Seriously.

Someone (like the pastor) could suggest they read up on how young children tend (tend) to be especially receptive at a cognitive level to learning different languages. Then again, I went entirely through a public school education in a school district that pioneered mandatory foreign language instruction starting in the middle of elementary school and that you couldn't elect out of until the middle of high school, so I was used to dreaming in Spanish by the time I got to high school.

BKenney,

Several thoughts:

1) While it is true that, immediately, you answer to the Pastor, your boss is God. No Parish (Pastoral) Council can change that reality.

2) I haven't read "When Sheep Attack", but I suspect I could have written it from personal experience. Accordingly, I urge you not to panic about this over-reach, but calmly proceed.

3) Ask plenty of questions of the council or the pastor, with both in the room at the same time.

4) Avoid asking the document-based question, but be ready with answers to the document-based questions of others. Don't play for checkmate. Play for stalemate. If they're really interested in the truth, you'll know soon enough.

Cheers,

Chris

When people speak in favor of maintaining ignorance, should we really cater to that wish?

I will X post at the other "Sheep Attack" thread.
I did create PPT overview for general (lay) consideration.
Let me know privately, via messaging on this forum if you're interested in reviewing it.
I'm showing it to our PPC/Strategic Planning people in the morning. Prayers invited.

Gregorian chant has pride of place - not the only place. In a parish where the pastor has instructed the musician to not use Latin, use English chant and polyphony. Don't junk good sacred music because of language. While Latin may be ideal, it could result in a musician being unemployed if using Latin violates the pastor's orders.

Bkenney27, if I were reading this situation from outside, which I am, I would say Latin is the thing setting complainers off and what is getting the pastor's attention. If that is accurate, the best way for him to defuse the complaints is to tell you not to do Latin. So lay low and do something else for a while. Six months from now, conditions may have changed.

Yes. A few years ago I was told Latin was to no more be done at my parish. I simply acknowledged the command, took out my guitar and strummed the best G&P you could imagine. Obedience is always better than sacrifice, and God will reward you for your obedience in due time. But it does not change the ideal, which will never disappear from our hearts or our minds, and we can always hold up the ideal for the education of the ignorant or hard of heart.

The most I have ever been told on this subject, was to not do so much Latin for a while. That was around the time of the new missal implementation. The pastor wanted the congregation to learn the new English translations. I understood his point and had no problems with it.

Bkenney27, if I were reading this situation from outside, which I am, I would say Latin is the thing setting complainers off and what is getting the pastor's attention. If that is accurate, the best way for him to defuse the complaints is to tell you not to do Latin. So lay low and do something else for a while. Six months from now, conditions may have changed.

Completely agree.

I love Latin, and have not wanted to return to Englsh attempts after being immersed in Gregorian chant. You are correct that the Church officially upholds the use of Latin and Gr chant has pride of place.

That being said, your situation seems to involve a real threat and a gradual approach is needed. If in a year or two the ban on Latin is still an issue, then I might start looking for a new job. But I suspect your pastor is closer to you in spirit. You're probably dealing with a personality that is good natured, wants to please most everyone, and is practical. And he has 8,421 things on his to do list.

If nothing changes after a good amount of time, perhaps a choir season or two, remind yourself you are not trapped. Take this to prayer and do not become discouraged as you work at laying a modest foundation of good, more sacred sounding music in English. You can find another job and exit this one with charity and grace if needed, but I would show humility and wisdom in all your dealings. I know because I've been in this situation.

It's psychologically difficult when you want to do what the Church is asking you to do and you feel those in immediate authority aren't letting you. The enemy often works on pride in this way, in an attempt to distance you from God (as always). Don't give him a foothold. Serve in charity, lead your choirs with enthusiasm and care and at the same time know you will have other employment options.
FWIW, you have my prayers.

Rant alert! Bkenney, others, skip over this bit of negativity as needed.

Something that was said really gets up my Irish.
The b.s. about not teaching children Latin. It's dumb, but I think it's naive of me to think its only dumb. It's subversive. The reason why some (most? most all?) people who'd make such a lame claim is that they don't want the old traditions to continue. Teach children Latin songs- they'll know them for life and that threatens their desire to sing a new Church into being. And we mustn't have that!!

Sorry to rant, but as one who is of an age where no one taught Latin or chant to Catholic school kids, that specific issue ticks me off no end. It's an issue of justice, at least in part.

What fond memories of sacred music do I have from my Catholic youth? Zilch. Instead I hear, "peace is flowing like a river". I think I should sing chant hymns to myself ten times a day in an attempt to bury such awful music.

BKenney,

If you can do this with a completely straight face, intending not to be snarky about it, ask this question: Does the ban on Latin mean that other languages, like Spanish (or whatever ethnic language you have in your parish) are similarly banned because they are not English?

When you get the answer, ask "Why is it that only Latin is banned?"

Cheers,

Chris

I had intended to delete this thread as a precautionary measure, but the feedback is so valuable that I don't want to take the discussion away from people that may need it in the future.

One of the PPC members took me out for coffee between Masses on Sunday and confirmed my suspicions that this was instigated by one member and at the wrong time in the meeting. Essentially, the meeting was hijacked. Either way, I know there are at least a few people on the PPC that sat there and silently rolled their eyes through this. I have requested that the Pastor facilitate meetings with me, him, and each member individually as suggested earlier. That way, they won't be able to feed off of each other's negativity. I was told I'd probably be lucky to get more than one person to sign up to which I responded that the important thing is that they know the opportunity is there to discuss this and that they are CHOOSING to not take part.

I also found out that some of the frustration stemmed from the presentation I gave in June about the propers and the GIRM/Roman Missal. There seems to be a feeling that I presented and left, leaving no room for a Q & A session. Except that the person who told me this specifically said he remembers me asking for questions at the end and having no one raise any. Then I even stuck around during their coffee break and fielded many compliments to the presentation including one gentleman who expressed that his preference was not chant, but acknowledged that my presentation left him wondering why we aren't singing the Propers more frequently! He then indicated he wanted to purchase the GIRM and read it.

....Sooooooo there's something else going on here. When Sheep Attack arrived early so that will be bedtime reading this evening.

For the sake of perspective, Francis, in what year did that happen?

Ouch.

Going back to the comment from the deacon about the youth going to Mass "under duress," I thought I might relate a recent experience. In my current position at a Catholic high school, the student body attended a Youth Rosary Rally. Among the guests was a dynamic young man who has travelled around to such attends giving speeches to Catholic youth - pretty much reflecting the Life Teen movement. I was frankly fearing the worst, and then he related some of his conversations with young people who complained that Mass was boring, and that proceedings should be more lively like his presentations (he included a little music too). He actually said that it was not the business of the liturgy to entertain them - that they actually had much responsibility for becoming engaged in the Mass themselves. He managed to say this in a way that didn't sound like they were being lectured either. I was delightfully shocked. As much as we like to disavow it sometimes, there is still an obligation, and even duress, and that's not bad. I took piano lessons for a while out of duress from my parents, and I'm eternally grateful for it.
Also, in my experience, young people can seriously get into Latin chant when presented in an engaging way. They are looking for alternatives to the common practice of U.S. Catholic churches, and there is no denying that chant is no longer part of the mainstream. We can use that as an advantage.

It's not a secret any more.

JOB.

Melo

I'm game. I play a mean B3 (which is also cycling back around as a great rig). Am seriously considering a Roland Integra as my synth mod.

See if you can make an exception for this.

If you can do this with a completely straight face, intending not to be snarky about it, ask this question: Does the ban on Latin mean that other languages, like Spanish (or whatever ethnic language you have in your parish) are similarly banned because they are not English?

When you get the answer, ask "Why is it that only Latin is banned?"

When the pastor says No Latin, it may seem impossible to believe for some that he means it. He does, otherwise he would not have said it.

Asking for an exception in this case is professional suicide. (priest thinks: "Here I am trying to save this guy's job so he can feed his family and he thinks he should still sing latin? What was I thinking when I hired this one?")

Jesu Rex will be here for centuries, that job may be lost over asking to sing it. Worth it?

I'm not criticizing Adam's comment but he's working in an Episcopal Church where it is hard to get fired...in fact, I know of an Episcopal church in which the organist's lover was transferred, he resigned to go along and be with him and they could not sell their house so he stayed and lover is returning...sounds like something not worth discussing here, except now that he's truly demonstrated his deep and abiding loyalty to the job, he's asking the church to spend a million dollars to improve the pipe organ...and they are working to do it even though the interim pastor has brought up the fact the Christian Education is less that 1% of the church budget...and the church is still actively working to do this.

Latin, unfortunately, is the mark of ashes on the forehead that indicates to many that this a person who wants to change my mass because they think that they are better than I and think that they know more than I do and I do not want any change - next thing, I won't be able to eat meat on Friday. Been there, done that, laughed at by my friends. Not going back there.

For Immaculate Conception:

No Immaculate Mary
No Hail, Holy Queen

No Ave Maria when requested for funerals/Weddings
No Panis Angelicus " " " "

O_O

Noel,

I suggested the course of action of asking if other languages are also prohibited because

1) Asking questions does not imply disobedience (insubordination).
2) If Latin is forbidden, despite the fact that Holy Mother Church says it shall have pride of place, there is clearly a need to get exact information about what is allowed. Sure, the pastor forbids Latin, but unless the employee understands something of why, he's going to upset the pastor repeatedly, for doing things like singing music which is in conformity with Catholic doctrine, and other crimes. Perhaps certain instruments will be forbidden, or others required?


Since you raise the question, it seems fair to ask why "No Latin" doesn't mean all the other things I've suggested.

Since you raise the question, it seems fair to ask why "No Latin" doesn't mean all the other things I've suggested.

It does usually mean all those things. You have, as we say in the US, struck the nail on the head.

Possibly the problem is that Catholic Priests are not required to be fair (maybe they take a secret oath not to be?) and most would find this question to be the highest form of insubordination.

The most often heard sentence from rock guitarists seems to be "do you want fries with that?" and with Catholic musicians from ask the questions that you list, "what do you mean, I'm fired?"

Today you have to have a guitarist/keyboard player/pianist/organist and a vocalist to say Mass on the weekends. We are seen as a necessary evil and treated as such.