Why are they discussing the music without you there? Did you know this happens? Is this encouraged by the Pastor?

At least the Pastor would like to be "positive" in his "discussion" with you.

Can you tell us what exactly you have changed? For example, are you now omitting all hymns and singing only propers, so people can't sing because they don't have the text and music? Or have you left "On Eagle's Wings" and "Be Not Afraid" for "Faith of Our Fathers" and "Tantum Ergo".

This is what happens in these meetings.

Whiner #1: I don't like the music we've been singing at the Mass lately. I'm sure everyone agrees with me.

Non-whiners who are blindsided, who haven't even thought of the issue: silence.

Whiner #2: We used to sing music EVERYBODY KNEW. Now, nobody knows the music!

Non-whiners sort of waking up: silence.

Pastor: Well, I can see we have a problem here. What do we propose to do about it?

Whiner #1: Well, we didn't have this problem when Mr. Smith and Ms. Ida used to do the music.

Pastor: Well, why don't I have a talk with the music director and see whether we can sing some MUSIC EVERYBODY KNOWS.

Suddenly, based on two whiney people, in 30 seconds flat, the Music Director has been cast in the role of "problem." This is an outrageous occurrence.

If you can trust your cantors--i.e. if you're sure none of them wants your job, or thinks they should have gotten it last time, etc.--it might be a good idea to let the pastor know that he can talk to them about their impressions of increased participation.

If it were me, I would ask the pastor to have meetings with him, me, and the main whiners one on one. They won't be as bold in that meeting. Don't forget, you know a million times more about music than they do. You have encyclopedic knowledge of hymnody and chant. They have zero knowledge. Work that in the meeting. Politely but insistently make them acknowledge that you are an expert, not some sort of ecclesiastical jukebox.

****

One of the times this sort of thing happened to me, I asked the whiners to give me a list, on paper, of SONGS EVERYBODY KNEW. So they had some sort of meeting over coffee--and nobody could agree on what the songs were, that EVERYBODY KNEW. The only exception surprised the heck out of me: O Lord, I Am Not Worthy. Can you believe it? I was sure it was going to be something "contemporary," but no, it was the most common Communion hymn of the Pre-Vatican II 4-hymn sandwich!

That was it. That was the Common Core for that whole group of whiners who were sure they all knew exactly what everyone else wanted to sing.

****
We had this parish survey done, and the music responses were all over the map. "I love the old style hymns." "All our hymns sound Protestant." "Why don't we have Traditional music like "Here I Am, Lord." "I love the hymn to our Patron and think we should sing it more." "Please, please, don't ever let us sing the hymn to our Patron anymore!"

There is no consensus among the people. I bet you a million dollars the parish council did not talk about specific genres. They do not agree.

****

Kathy and Adam are spot on!

I am going through the very same thing. Basically insert Kathy's synopsis and that is what I have been going through. Why is it that it's always the music, and not say perhaps, the good Father's homily. Everyone is usually afraid to mention that, so the next best thing is taking pot shots at the music.

There is no consensus among the people. I bet you a million dollars the parish council did not talk about specific genres. They do not agree.

I strongly suggest that everyone read the most recent periodical that came out from NPM, which showed many responses to the survey questions about this year's convention. It's hard to believe they all even attended the same thing.

If the good father is simply pulling up info that is available to anyone who can do a Google search, he is simply proving Adam's point. I am fortunate enough to be in a position where I can be pretty honest, but not everyone is that lucky.

There should be no levity or "quarter given/quarter taken" in this discussion. I too, stand with Kathy on this one. This is deadly serious, with souls, for their decisions and actions, at stake and peril, trust me I know. NOW.
There is no "I'll take the high road and you the low road and we'll meet later on."
There is the Way, the Truth and the Life only, and those ordained or commissioned to lead our Church continue to, by and large, behave like magistrates by capitulating to ego and evid deeds out of fear that eat parishes alive from within. It is sickening.

The fact that the pastor emailed you this feedback speaks volumes about the failure to train pastors in proper interpersonal communication.

One might ask to meet with Father Dearest and start by asking: well, Father, I would like to know how you interpreted this feedback and how you responded to it during the meeting?

CharlesW - not everyone is so fortunate.

Darjeeling always smells wonderful, but that's another subject.

I agree, Adam, I am more fortunate than some. But as I advised, don't leave the pastor in the dark, consult with him often, and get his approval on what you do before the fact. It does make a difference. He is more likely to support you if he knows you are supporting his vision.

I'll provide a more detailed response later, but just wanted to be clear that what I post here, I do with full understanding that it could be found. My intent when it comes my specific parish is to post a neutral request for feedback so that when you examine only what I have posted, and not what others respond, you find little objectionable material.

I also think my Pastor knows well enough that I enjoy working with him and doubt that he would find anything here that would lead him to believe otherwise. And, if he did, that certainly was not the intent.

Anyway, thanks for the input. It is helpful I'm not alone in this. I forwarded the pastor's email to a few people that were at the meeting and asked for clarification so I could go into MY meeting informed, and to get a few different viewpoints from people I trust. Turns out, there was more than hymn selection discussed.

I forwarded the pastor's email to a few people that were at the meeting and asked for clarification so I could go into MY meeting informed, and to get a few different viewpoints from people I trust. Turns out, there was more than hymn selection discussed.

If you haven't done so already, perhaps forward it to people you know are on board with your direction whether they are council people or not. Why should only all the malcontents be heard?

Yes, negative comments are always louder than positive ones - and they usually go to the Pastor or to other parishioners and not to you.

Positive comments are usually more meek and humble - and they usually go to you, and not the Pastor or other parishioners.

It's not always women.

No, it isn't always women, but women do outnumber men in many parishes. With the Church Militant having become the church touchy-feely, many of the guys have left for something less wussie-fied.

It's true PPCs are not required. I am a skeptic about their institutional value because they tend to become echo chambers over time: pastors will over time tend to attract the like-thinking (plus some people who enjoy playing gadfly - and, annoying as they can be, you need those people in order to prevent the culture that Church People Are Nice from embalming things in the formaldehyde of Niceness) and repel those who have serious questions.

That said, while pastors on canonical paper have lots of power, wise pastors understand that they actually have to earn much of their authority. And, as monarchical as the Roman church is, this necessitates *lots* of curious consultation. (Being a pastor is not a job for introverts.) The model of monarchy is *not* Louis XIV but a wise Benedictine abbot who understands that he will have to eat his own cooking and thus exercises an immense amount of . . . . collegiality (as did most of the most successful medieval monarchs). (One virtue of the 1983 code of canon law is that parishes are not necessarily stuck with bad pastors until they get buried, but the underside to that is that pastors can screw up parishes safe in the knowledge that they are not condemned to a life sentence there.) I personally think the PPCs as incarnated in many (not all) US parishes allows pastors to create the illusion of necessary consultation without the substance.

So, while a pastor has power on paper, one must always consider how he will earn the authority to use it.

YOUR PASTOR IS VERY GOOD.

The difficulty of trying to maintain participation, which relies very heavily on singing only songs that they already know while also trying to "improve" by selecting new music is sometimes almost an impossible situation.

You cannot please all the people all the time BUT YOU MUST PLEASE THE PASTOR.

By him giving you an immediate heads up by email outlining what had been said he was able to avoid somebody accosting you personally before he could get to you (the schadenfreude people) who can torment, many times unknowingly, people like you and the pastor who are on good terms with each other.

YOUR PASTOR IS DOING THE RIGHT THING.

One good way to handle this is a presentation at the PPC meeting without you there. If the cantors are saying more people are singing, have one of them get up and tell the people that - get yourself out of the firing line. The cantors are often "the old guard" and people will tend to respect them...and the cantor can also explain how the cantors feel about the music that you want to do...if they are in support that will sway people too. There is no reason for you to be on the "hot seat" justifying what you are doing...if this cantor is a popular person it's even better.

YOUR PASTOR IS NOT AGAINST YOUR PROGRAM. He's very clear that he supports it. He is also aware, I am sure, that ANYTIME YOU HIRE A NEW PERSON HE'S GOING TO HEAR COMPLAINTS.

If there were no complaints, this would indicate that he's hired the exact same person he had before. (I was in a job for 11 months, had them pull out the resumes from when I was interviewed, pointed at one and said, "This guy is EXACTLY like the guy who was here for 18 years. Hire him." and moved on, knowing that once again they were in good, competent hands.

This pastor hired you to do what he wanted done. He heard/saw/sensed that together with him you would be the person for the job.

Notice that he did not say that you are going to have to deal with the PPC, but that you are going to work with him so that it can be presented in a positive manner...and not that you had to go this one on your own.

The people HAVE to take their medicine, you do not have to be the person to justify it to them...

People are complaining about that?

I agree with Jani: that looks pretty middle-of-the-road to me. They're probably just remembering one Mass: the SEP on All Saints. It's a good idea to incorporate that, but it's a decent departure from your other Communion music.

I'd take some advice from another thread. When people complain about your selections, ask them which pieces, specifically, they would like.

Well, you never did Be Not Afraid, On Eagle's Wings, Here I Am Lord, City of God, or whatever other "contemporary" piece of music they wanted. As Kathy has said before, they probably want THAT PIECE OF MUSIC THEY LIKE. Find out what it is and try to placate them.

I think your pastor may be right about Latin, sad to say. I am certain that the vast majority of middle-schoolers would rather hear/sing Adoro Te Devote at mass than a lot else. Good thing there is a fine English translation of it available. I don't quite know why, but Latin seems to scare contemporary Catholics.

Case in point: A couple of years ago I was in a Eucharistic procession at a Catholic family conference in my hugely devout diocese (we have about as many seminarians per capita as Lincoln, Nebraska). They passed out a hymn sheet with text and notation, and started an obscure 19th-century English hymn that I had never heard in my life. Hundreds of us just figured it out and sang along lustily.

Then the leader moved on to the next hymn on the sheet -- Pange Lingua -- and just about everyone went dead silent. It was astonishing. And clearly not a case of a noisy few complaining about what everyone else embraced gladly. Most of the people in this procession were Catholic-T-shirt wearing homeschooling families -- people who will drive several hours and put all seven of their children up in a hotel in order to hear Tim Staples give a keynote.

Perhaps it's necessary to start with something very, very simple, like the Sanctus. In my own parish we sing the simplest settings of the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei in Advent and Lent -- and also Mortem Tuam and Pater Noster.

The parish, which does like its Gather hymns, shakes the rafters for the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei. We even spontaneously do the flourish in the final Kyrie, even though it's not actually notated on the pew cards. It just seems to be burned into the collective memory.

But hardly any one sings Mortem Tuam, and the Pater Noster is a bit weak. I wonder if this just boils down to linguistic complexity.

What's important is that the music be liturgically appropriate and beautiful. Whether it's in Latin is secondary.

If you have a few squeaky-wheel parishioners who break out in a rash when they hear Latin, it is no surprise at all.

I think your pastor may be right about Latin, sad to say. I am certain that the vast majority of middle-schoolers would rather hear/sing Adoro Te Devote at mass than a lot else. Good thing there is a fine English translation of it available. I don't quite know why, but Latin seems to scare contemporary Catholics.

I would say he were right if we overused Latin. Outside of Lent, the most Latin they hear is the intoned verse of the Adoro te. The people are not asked to sing the Latin verse (though some do, even at the "contemporary" Mass) and we then sing as many of the English verses as we can.

During Lent, we use(d) the Mass XVIII Agnus Dei in Latin (which they sing more than anything else and our Children's choir has been begging for since last Lent) and the Graduale Simplex for the Introit (translations were provided for the congregation and which they began to sing with the choir). Last year, I also tried using a few communion antiphons from the SEP and alternated Attende Domine and Parce Domine (in English) for the Offertory. THAT drove people over the edge because there weren't any hymns, save for the Recessional. The previous year, I used the Simplex Introits with normal hymns and fewer people complained. The issue with this congregation ISN'T Latin.... it's inhibited participation.

The choir has been working so hard on chant and Latin, and they are really doing it incredibly we'll. We've spent the past two months preparing Palestrina's Jesu Rex for CTK and now I need to tell them "Oops. Sorry. All that was for nothing because we're not allowed to use Latin anymore." I don't understand how anyone who has ever read the GIRM and other binding documents of the church can actually request that Latin be REMOVED from the liturgy when I am incorporating so little of it to begin with. It's driving me mad, especially because I'm certain this is NOT what HE (the pastor) wants.

I realize I am departing from my online diplomacy here, but that meeting nearly knocked me over and I plan on telling him anyway.

Agreeing with Adam--you HAVE to find a way to avoid that work going to waste. I would encourage you not to make a big deal of this with your choir. They don't need to know that there has been any rancor over this issue. Just figure out a solution and go with that; you don't have to give them a big, long explanation.

Now that the choir can sing polyphony, why not start on English? Tallis' If You Love Me could be next.

I brought my choir from SATB hymnody, which they did well already, through English oratorio, to polyphony.

On the other hand, it's important not to be against the pastor. Ultimately you're his staff, and he's accountable to God for what goes on in a way that you are not. He doesn't have to obey the parish council, and he doesn't have to obey the music director.

Here's a poetic translation, in case you need it:

O Jesus, King of wondrous might,
O Victor, glorious from the fight,
Sweetness that may not be expressed,
And altogether loveliest!

Abide with us, O Lord, today,
Fulfill us with thy grace, we pray;
And with thine own true sweetness feed
Our souls from sin and darkness freed.

(St. Bernard of Clairvaux)

I agree with most of what has been said above. Your pastor should have postponed discussion of the music program until you were present, and those complaining about the music should be willing to offer concrete suggestions for what they would consider to be improvement, not just the vague demand of "songs everyone knows." Let them put up or shut up! That is not to say you should feel any obligation whatsoever to utilize their suggestions unless directed to do so by the pastor.

IMHO, a reply along the following lines would not be out of order:

Dear Father:

Thank you for letting me know about the parish council's discussion of congregational singing. I would have offered to be present if I had known music would be on the agenda. Perhaps I can attend the next meeting to discuss these concerns. It might be helpful to have feedback from the council members about which specific hymns a majority of our parishioners would rather sing.

Here is a list of the hymns I have selected for the remainder of the month: [include congregational hymns only, not Ordinary Mass parts or choral numbers]. I believe all these hymns are fairly easy to sing and will be appropriate for the liturgical and pastoral needs of our parish. Please advise me if any changes need to be made to any of these selections before I have the opportunity to speak with the parish council.

Thanks,
Brendan


As for the "songs everyone knows," I think the following belong on the list:

All Creatures of Our God and King/Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones
Faith of Our Fathers
The Church’s One Foundation
The King of Love My Shepherd Is
Come, Holy Ghost, Creator Blest
I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say
Lift High the Cross
There’s a Wideness in God’s Mercy
O God, Our Help in Ages Past
Shepherd of Souls
Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence
At That First Eucharist
Jesus, My Lord, My God, My All
Alleluia! Sing to Jesus
Soul of My Savior
O salutaris/O Saving Victim
Now Thank We All Our God
Jesus Shall Reign
Praise to the Lord, the Almighty
All People That on Earth Do Dwell
O God, Almighty Father/God, Father, Praise and Glory
Holy God, We Praise Thy Name
Immaculate Mary
Haily, Holy Queen

As for Latin, it’s my experience that the majority of Catholics everywhere (not only in the U.S.) are still able not only to sing the Sanctus and Agnus Dei from Mass XVIII but to do so from memory.

Also to be included on the list are "O Lord, I Am Not Worthy," all the familiar Christmas carols and other seasonal hymns such as "Lord, Who throughout These Forty Days" and "At the Lamb's High Feast," as well as less commendable selections like "Amazing Grace," "On Eagle's Wings," and "Here I Am, Lord."

My practice has been to allow inferior hymns at funerals, school Masses (when music selection is largely beyond my control), and at weekend Masses only when there is a specific correspondence with a scripture reading. This way, lousy hymns are phased out of regular use but still sung occasionally—at least enough to avoid charges of elitism!

Finally, if your pastor does insist on putting a cantor in the front of the church, make a clear distinction between congregational hymns and cantor solos. It is not enough simply to invite the congregation to sing; they must get the message that they are expected to do so. Your organ registrations should always indicate whether you are accompanying the cantor (or choir) alone or the congregation; this means a difference in fullness and volume noticeable even to the least musically-inclined person in the church. If you find that people sing, for instance, at the offertory but not during Communion, try having a cantor solo instead of a congregational hymn, which means don't announce it and don't put the number on the hymn board if you use one. It's hard to say which is worse: accompanying a cantor solo with a full congregational hymn registration, or barely supporting what is supposed to be congregational singing with an 8' flute.