Haha well I'm glad I didn't listen to either of you two. My alto and I have been married almost 5 years, with 2 kids.

Haha well I'm glad I didn't listen to either of you two. My alto and I have been married almost 5 years, with 2 kids.

There are definitely success stories. But I think, if the choir director does decide to date a choir member or a parishioner, s/he should disclose the relationship to the clergy and the whole choir.

Is the pastor aware of this?
He should set her straight or you should invite her to consider another ministry.

The pastor is aware of this, but I don't think he wants to get involved given the complexity of the situation. The relationships were carried out "in secret" and the church tries not to interfere with employees' private lives. People wouldn't notice anything unless they have been singing in the choir for a long time.

The pastor should probably be made aware of the relationship, "I think I know why, at least in part, our choir is not growing, and I'm concerned...". He may well want to meet with the soprano (volunteer? paid?) and the choir director (volunteer? paid?). It's totally inappropriate, volunteer or paid, and their relationship (and other relationships he has had with his choir members?) may well be sabotaging the parish choir.

The choir director and the soprano section leader are paid. The other women whom the choir director has dated were volunteers. The dysfunction is definitely affecting the demographics of choir membership. As I mentioned, there is no member under age 50 in the soprano and alto sections. In fact, the majority are retirees. Younger sopranos and altos have come and gone over the years.

I am happy about the success stories where happy marriages resulted from dating choir members. I still think, however, that choir directing and other fields require an amount of professional detachment. This is just good business practice. There probably are as many or more horror stories out there as happy outcomes.

As I mentioned, there is no member under age 50 in the soprano and alto sections. In fact, the majority are over age 65.

Then it is no mirage! An oasis does truly exist for geriatric female singers, where performance opportunities increase with age.

We had some interesting events here some years ago. The choir director at the oldest church in town (1792 or so) had impregnated a choir member. He was fired. At another church, a relationship blew up publicly and was known all over town. At a local Methodist church, the organist was so enamored of a choir lady that he plotted with her to kill her husband. Organist hid in the closet and came out at night to knife the husband - burly construction worker type. Needless to say, he swatted the small, wimpy organist aside with minimal damage done to himself. It was in the newspapers and on local TV, embarrassing the Methodists greatly.

About that time (1996 or so) I applied for a position with a local Protestant church. There, and all over town, churches were suddenly requiring background checks and character references. I just chalked it up to something in the air causing all these passionate musicians to act like over-sexed adolescents.

I think background checks are important if part of the job is to work with minors. On the other hand, I question the usefulness of character references.

I assumed it was a portmanteau of "trollop" and "elope".

Too funny!

One part of the solution to the choral situation mentioned earlier is for the volunteers not to enable it further; there's a great deal of enabling that goes on in church circles because of the implied directive that Church People Should Be Nice.

QED. (Not intended as snark. But folks in this situation should fully own that they cooperate in the decision to keep it going; it's not just a problem of the principals, but of the group that enables them. It only changes when enablers prefer change to the status quo, which is typically a fairly high hurdle. Still, it is chosen. While this is afield of the specific topic, it is related in an important way - choir dynamics of this sort are an important rudder of who bothers to try joining a choir, decide to stay in a choir, or to leave a choir.)

CW
Crazy talk.

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Theo, what can you do unless the pastor is willing to get involved? He has the authority to do something about it.

Charles,

What I still don't know is which anecdotes or aspects thereof you were counselling against.

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This is the usual sidetrack that nearly every thread takes. When things are discussed here, it is usually in a conversational way. Conversations drift. So what? Discussions are not formally structured, and would probably be too boring to read if they were.

Particularly if there are things that involve recurring patterns. The recurring pattern isn't the affair, but of not-so-secret things that have disruptive effects for which a group overcompensates by enabling. Very common in church ministries (and workplaces, for that matter), but gets extra oomph from the imperative to maintain appearances in the name of Being Good (which is different from actually being good...). Even worse when the dynamic is exploited by the principals.

In re-reading your original comment, I see you weren't asking for a solution. Good luck. Not really fair to those young people who want to sing, though.

What can be annoying is the nattering nannies of forum propriety who want to determine the course discussions take. I don't see how that is possible, given the open nature and loose structure of the forum. I have read through many obfuscated rambles on this forum that should have begun with, "It was a dark and stormy night..."

we should be able to talk about interpersonal problems that affect our work.

I'm with Kathy on this one.

practical questions about the sociological dimensions of music ministry seem to me to be worth discussing, because they are so damned common.

I agree with you. This is so true for choirs with volunteer singers. They are there for the music, as well as the socializing.

Theo, I just want to add that I'm not against romance in the choir per se. We've already had some marriages, and one or two relationships in a choir that's 4 years old. There many choirs in which the spouse of the director sings, and that can work really well. I think of someone with Wendy Culbreath's voice, and personal skills, and I have no doubt of the glory given to God and the kindness shown to fellow choir members. That's healthy, and a blessing.

However, the situation you describe sounds caustic to put it mildly. The dysfunction is preventing the whole choir from growing and developing- it's mission has been thwarted by staff and volunteer romances gone awry.

If you choose, you have a valid concern to bring to the pastor. He's turned a blind eye, ok. But maybe hearing how bad the situation is for morale, for the growth of his parish choir, perhaps he will take action. I'm sad for the musicians involved. Their shady and spiteful behavior is going against their very mission as sacred musicians, and they've got to know it.

Someone needs to do something helpful, and honest. Maybe you are the one that can quietly prompt an end to the stalemate. Maybe not. Might I recommend a novena to discern your role and how to act with charity in a tough situation. Stay reasonable, kind and classy. As a director, I'm heartened that you care about your choir.

why not say things so that other people can possibly understand them?

Hah! You should live so long! LOL.

Spiro Agnew was vice president during the administration of Richard Nixon. He had a gift for making extreme statements. He was the only vice president in US history to resign because of criminal charges, so says St. Wiki.

It always amazes me that those who criticize misdirecting and sidetracking threads are the world's absolute worst for doing the same.

I have threatened to confiscate cell phones a time or two. Some of my members play with them during sermons. I can live with that, but they sometimes forget to turn them off and they ring at the worst of times.

Theo, I just want to add that I'm not against romance in the choir per se.

MaryAnn: Thank you for your latest post. Like you, I am not against romance in the choir per se. I know of success stories between choir members, or between the choir director and a choir member. But in my view, if the choir director decides to date women who are under his supervision, the relationships must be disclosed, not carried on in secrecy. I think that's for the best interest of all choir members.

I believe one of the young women pursued by the choir director has complained to the pastor, but any change is unlikely.

Most volunteers and I feel that we can't say anything because we are not involved directly. We don't like the dysfunction, but we are so used to it and we accept it, in part because we fear that there might be graver consequences if we say something.

About Melo my friend,
Anyone who has attempted to understand him (you) a bit knows a few things:
1) Very few can give counsel from such a venerable perspective of long years as a DoM and working musician. Trust me, his (your) advice counts for a lot. He's (you've) been there, done that, and tries very hard to go by WWJD when observing gospel and professional considerations.
2) Considering #1, we can infer that fraternal corrections and suggestions made by Charles/melo (you) are given with his (your) idea of all of our best interests in mind. So...
3) No one needs to be defensive about our reception to his (your) comments, nor would we be expected to agree and/or implement his (your) advice in every or any instance.
4) Speaking for myself on this one- Charles, you often write in a style that is over my head. I do not share your genius, alas. As we are brother and sister, I submit the burden is on us both to understand and be understood.


We can have our opinions AND be overtly charitable, as this is a public forum. Charles/Melo, you are correct in that we never know who is reading and we need to be wise about commenting, for the sake of the gospel, our profession in general, and our livelihoods in particular. I appreciate you calling "order!" regarding potentially problematic comments/issues, even if you risk being seen as over-correcting. I'd rather us err in that direction than risk being foolhardy.


Duh alert: Not everyone will agree on everyone else's opinion. We are on the same page in general, and passionate about all of it, including the particulars/minutiae of our goals. We can defend without being defensive, correct without being dismissive, advance without being aggressive, etc. Then there's the reality that we're all chiming in using a media that has set limits when conveying tone and intention. Taking things personally is as understandable as it is pointless.


All this to say, here's to growing in charity, humor, and wisdom! To end with a Beatles quote, "we can work it out". :)