Spanish Propers
  • Bob_Nardo
    Posts: 19
    So while we are waiting for Spanish propers to be developed over time, perhaps along with the new translation next year, What do folks find is the best available Spanish missal?

    We will hopefully be doing away with disposable Missalettes for the English Mass by obtaining either Lumen Christi Missal/Hymnal or the new Isaac Jogues, but before comparable Spanish products are available, we need to make sure there is still a Spanish resource for readings, ordinary of the Mass, and I suppose some hymns. I wondered what the best Missal or insert might be.
  • For the Third Sunday of Easter. Still working on the entrance antiphon.
    Thanked by 1Bridget Scott
  • Thanks, Nathan...

    I've decided to begin working on some of the Introit and Communion propers as a personal project. I'm using the Gregorian Missal, Fr. Weber's book and the Ainslie Propers as a sort of guide.

    Here is my 20th and 21st Sunday in Ordinary Time first offerings... I'd appreciate feedback, especially from those who have Spanish liturgies.

    Edit: See Rev 1 below with adjustments. Thanks for the comment! (the starting files were removed)
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,429
    On the first setting of "Dios nuestro...", notice which words are getting emphasis from the melody and which are not. It seems odd that "nuestro" is emphasized, while "Dios" gets just a quick punctum. If you go through the piece, there are probably some other spots where an adjustment might help emphasize the more important words, though that text doesn't look easy to work with in general.
  • Thanks very much for taking the time to look at it, Richard! I made adjustments. I agree with you very much upon reflecting. I made changes in both settings of the introits for 20th OT.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,210
    I've been looking forward to something like this for a long time! I hope you'll continue De fructu: I might expect at least the first liaison at "proviene_el pan y_el" and "vino" wants a flat.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Thank you!! How about this revision with the "te" on "vino"?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • 22nd OT and 23rd OT

    I truly appreciate the critiques...
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Exaltation of the Cross
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • 25th OT
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,429
    Here's a revision of the first line of the introit to illustrate some changes:
    image
    * When there's a rising melodic figure on a diphthong, it feels awkward and does not sound euphonious. (This is just my opinion, of course.) I made several changes to avoid most of these.
    * The three-note figure in the middle of "salvacion" creates a false accent on "-va-", even though the normal word accent falls on the third syllable; so I rearranged the notes to avoid it.
    491 x 183 - 11K
    Thanked by 2Richard Mix CHGiffen
  • Thank you! I agree... Here is a revision of 25OT with no ascending dipthongs... I kept the fancy "dice el" and made each word separate (I love that melody). Do you think it works? And similarly, I modified 23OT and 22 OT, 21OT and 20OT
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Exaltation of the Cross
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 507
    Have you thought about doing a recording or two?

    Not necessarily even a Youtube; you could just put up an mp3 at a host site somewhere and provide a link.

    (I say this as finding it interesting to look at the scores, but never yet having learned any Spanish myself.)
    Thanked by 1janetgorbitz
  • It's nice to see this being done. A Spanish Palmer-Burgess! Now, all we need is a French one... and a German one... and... and a Roman English one..... and.....
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,429
    A note on the Assumption introit: is it right to present "pies" as a two-syllable word?

    I've been looking for diction guidance on-line, and what I've seen so far about the treatment of diphthongs suggests that this kind of diphthong is one syllable only: it's a "weak" glide vowel ("i" or "u") plus a "strong" vowel ("a", "e", or "o"). [If there were an accent on the glide vowel, then there would be distinct syllables.] Can anyone confirm or correct that?
  • I have heard it (pie) with a definite sound of two syllables and sometimes more as a dipthong... which would be better in this instance is the question.

    Native speakers?

    PS: Melodically, I really like the two syllables... but if it doesn't seem right, I can remove that ascending neume on the dipthong and do something else :)
  • I'm going to repeat what I said above because I think it bears on a matter of deep, fundamental importance in our liturgy. No one. No one of our most eminent chant scholars is attempting anything at all like this in English, even though it is needed sorely. There is, of course, the Palmer-Burgess adaptations, which are widely used in the Ordinariate, and, apparently, in not a few Roman rite places. They are not wholly inappropriate (under present circumstances) for Roman rite use, though I, for one, do not like the juxtaposition of linguistic styles (and even less so of different languages altogether) in the ritual parts of a given mass. This results in an aesthetic and inherently disruptive pastiche. Ornaments to the ritual, such as motets and anthems are another, ornamental matter.

    Too, there is Bruce Ford's very commendable American Gradual, which has the lamentable fault of not being in chant notation, a failing which is hurtful to those who really take their chant seriously. But, at least, there is no problem with a jarring juxtaposition of linguistic register.

    Very lamentable is the fact that of the several truly great Catholic chant scholars in our midst, none of them is taking this task seriously - other than to heap contempt on the work of those who have given us their best at it, namely, P-B and Bruce Ford. Rather than to pour scourn on the efforts of others we might desire something more positive - such as their own adaptations of the GR, which would be welcomed with open arms. I know one of these scholars personally quite well. We are friends. I have nothing but effusive admiration for his work, the genius of his own chant compositions, and consider myself a loyal disciple of his scholarship. But mention of putting the GR into modern Roman English, which he could do with exquisite beauty, has fallen on deaf ears.

    Some day the propers will be restored to their place as inherent, required, elements of the liturgy. And some day some blessed scholar will give us an exquisite adaptation of the GR chants in English - together with, as an option, newly composed chant settings of the entire cycle of Responsorial Psalms, responsories, verses, and all... and the Alleluya and its verse. All of this in one book! A complete, real Graduale in English. It is becoming more prevalent now (we should be thankful for 'small favours'!) to publish newly composed chant entrance and communion antiphons. (Um, where's the offertory????... the psalm???... the alleluya and verse???) Most of these do not even represent the texts of the GR antiphons, but the ones from the missal which are not even intended to be sung!!! And, these do not constitute a complete cycle of the five items that are The Propers for every mass. Entrance and communion antiphons - half measures - not complete propers. As so often is the case, our publishers are hobbling together something that they think will 'sell', and marketing it to people who are ignorant as to the fact that what they are buying is not timeless chant, is really not The Propers, but something that has a 'traditional' feel to it made up from whole cloth - and to which (as is all too common with 'people') they will become so addicted that they will rarely move on to the 'real thing'. But! Better this than the (available) alternatives.

    AND! What I've just said applies in equal measure to our colleagues in the Spanish world, the French world, the German world, and all other worlds. May what Janet is doing prosper and bear fruit!
  • Tu promulgas - Communion antiphon 25th OT
    Como la cierva - Communion antiphon 23rd OT
  • Introits for 20th OT, versions 1 and 2 - Dios nuestro
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,663
    MJO: Actually, Fr. Weber's "Proper of the Mass" (Ignatius press) comes closest to P-B in presenting the Entrance and Communion Antiphons and Offertory Responsories in adaptations of their full Gregorian form using, when available, the approved English text from the Missal. It also includes simpler settings, like the Anglican Use Gradual, for less experienced singers. AND the psalms are set to authentic Gregorian psalm-tones (simple and solemn), not to any new-fangled ones.

    It would, however, in my opinion, be difficult to compile a whole Gradual in English at this point, until official translations of the intervenient chants from the Graduale are given. To set all of the Responsorial Psalms and Alleluia verses from the Lectionary would itself be a two-volume edition. After all, Arlene's "Parish Book of Psalms" is itself a hefty volume, equal in size to the Simple English Propers. To put everything needed for the New Mass in English: Kyrial, Introits, Graduals, Alleluias, Tracts, Sequences, Offertories, Communions, into one book would create a volume larger than the "Liber Usualis".
  • Thanks for this, Salieri - I confess to not being more than aware of Fr Weber's work. I've sung several of his individual chants and regard them well. I'll look into acquiring his 'Proper of the Mass'. Since, though, what he sets are those missal antiphons which are not even supposed to be sung, his book can hardly be called a proper graduale or, accurately, the 'Proper of the Mass' - it isn't the mass propers. The missal says plainly that these 'antiphons' are to be said by the priest when there is no music. Setting them to music and singing them is violating both rubrics and GIRM! Why do people keep doing this? They are undercutting our goals - as if gratuitous rubrical and GIRM violations were not enough!

    You are correct in that the sort of complete Graduale which I envision would be a hefty volume, but, still, one that we should have available and in use. It needn't include the ordinaries, but all the true propers.

    What I would like to see is a volume (two if necessary) which for every Sunday and solemnity and saint's day included the following (all but the RespPs adapted from Graduale Romanum - the RespPs would be newly composed chant for both responsories and verses). It may, indeed, take two volumes. Vol. I could be Sundays and solemnities of the year, and Vol. II could be the sanctoral cycle.

    1. Introit
    2. Gradual
    3. Optional Responsorial Psalm, years A, B, C, with newly composed responsories and verses
    4. Tract
    5. Alleluya and verse*, or Lenten Gospel Acclamations
    6. Sequence, where called for
    7. Offertory Antiphon, with added verses in Gregorian psalm tone
    8. Communion Antiphon, with added verses in Gregorian psalm tone

    *Simplified alleluyas could be offered as alternatives - but they would be SINGLE mass alleluyas with jubilus - not those absurd triple ones adapted from the office.

    Such as this would be a genuine, complete, English Graduale fulfilling the needs of the Novus Ordo - complete English propers for every mass on the kalendar. Less than this is literally short sighted and really not 'Vatican II'. One would have thought that a volume such as this would have been one of the very first orders of the day when the bishops got back from the council. But, no. Without any genuine authority at all they PRESUMED to dispense with the propers and we know the rest. This English Novus Ordo Graduale needs to exist, and its texts, to this chant or other composed music, should be required as the inherent part of every mass that they really are.
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • Recordings:

    Communion Antiphons, 27th Week of Ordinary Time
    Introit (versions 1 and 2), 26th Week of Ordinary Time
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Introit - Assumption. (note: I recorded two versions with the "pies" as a single syllable dipthong and another as a two-syllable word). feedback?

    Un Gran Signo
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,210
    Having gotten used to monosyllable "Dios" the pi - es struck me too, as did generati-ones.

    I don't see the problem with Bruce's work: when one knows more than one notation the choice of 5 or 4 lines, H40 beamed quavers or H82 two line staffs is about as 'hurtful' as learning Shakespeare set (the horror! the horror!) in Times New Roman.
    Thanked by 1janetgorbitz
  • Thanks very much, Richard. I am making revisions along the way and have also begun posting them on a single page here: http://castraponere.com/janet/spanish-propers-project/
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,663
    It's nice to see this being done. A Spanish Palmer-Burgess! Now, all we need is a French one... and a German one... and... and a Roman English one..... and.....

    I believe that the French one was already started by Mocquereau. (Or so I'm told.)
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Mocquereau was doing this?
    Decades before vernacular liturgy was so much as thought of?
    Prescient!
    (If true.)
  • 29OT, 30OT, 31OT, 32OT, All Saints, All Souls + Funeral, 1st Advent
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen donr
  • I've gotten some feedback that simpler versions are needed... so have begun adding them to each week... so there are in some cases three versions of the introit, for example. I'm finding it easier to just update in one place, so feel free to visit the page where they are all listed in order of the liturgical calendar here... I really appreciate the feedback and would be thrilled to know if anyone is using them...
    http://castraponere.com/janet/spanish-propers-project/

    I have also added a few more amateur recordings...
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen donr eft94530
  • donr
    Posts: 949
    Janet, I will certainly be using these for Christmas Midnight Mass, Confirmation, and the Triduum.
    I can't wait to hear what you come up with for Midnight Mass.
    Great work and much appreciated.
  • Don, Thank you!!! I am so excited to hear it. Please let me know if you have suggestions for changes when you do use any of them.

    I'm gradually working my way forward and trying to make recordings of each version. It helps me to find awkward things when I record them, so I often make slight changes as I go through that process, too.
    Thanked by 2eft94530 donr
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,574
    Starting in October I hope to use these.
  • Fantastic! Please let me know how it goes...
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 847
    I could use a set of simple Spanish propers for weekday Masses. Something seasonal like the Graduale Simplex. There was such a project started at marello.org, but I haven't seen any updates in a long time. Does anyone know more about this or if anyone is interested in continuing it. I'd like to help, but I don't know Spanish well enough.

    I'm also always looking for good settings of the ordinary in Spanish.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Thanks for the input... I also tried contact marello. org and their contact link doesn't work. Perhaps in time we can have a wide range of options available with varying skill levels... haven't started looking at the Mass ordinary yet, but I know the ordinary at marello.org was pretty good. I have used it for various things.
    Thanked by 2eft94530 Earl_Grey
  • Work is progressing, including the addition of several more simpler versions. I've also added a few more recordings. I'm behind on recordings, relative to the chant notation, but am now up to Advent 2.

    http://castraponere.com/janet/spanish-propers-project/
  • Excuse me while I pick up my jaw from the floor... Wow!
    These texts are superbly set to the Gregorian chants. The simpler versions are just what I am looking for to introduce my Spanish choir to regular Gregorian chant. Please tell me you are working on the verses. This is actually very exciting! I know of at least 3 parishes where these will quickly be put into regular use.
    Keep up the good work, Janet! Thank you and God Bless!
  • @Gustavo: Thank you so very much for your kind words. I will be very interested to know how they work for your choir. If you find areas for improvement or anywhere that the melody doesn't quite work with the text, please let me know so that I can make revisions.

    My plan is to try to get the antiphons for Introit and Communion done for the entire year, after which I'll work on Offertory and Psalm verses. Then, I hope to do something with the Responsorial Psalms and Gospel Acclamations... bit by bit.

    Janet.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Moving along through the liturgical calendar. I'm up to 4th Sunday of Ordinary Time with pdf files... lagging a bit on recordings... just finished Epiphany.

    I have tried (with no success) to purchase a copy of the Mexican Missal (2nd ed. -- the last one approved for use by the USCCB, from what I can gather. The 3rd ed. was not approved for use, but that is the one that is available through the Mexican publishers in Mexico). What used to cost about $72.95 is now very expensive (on Abebooks, for example) due to the scarcity.
  • Janet, I was inquiring about the verses so my choir could chant just a bit more than just the antiphons, but I see where you are headed. I'm very grateful for your work.

    As soon as I introduce these to the choir, they will surely point out which syllables may seem misplaced. If I think it needs to be brought up for revision, I'll suggest it.

    I have a Misal Romano, 2nd edition, from 2001. What is it that you need from it?
    Thanked by 1janetgorbitz
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,352
    "I have tried (with no success) to purchase a copy of the Mexican Missal (2nd ed. -- the last one approved for use by the USCCB, from what I can gather."

    Since the mid-1980's all Spanish-language editions of the Misal Romano have had the same translation of the Ordinary of the Mass. The USCCB canonically approved that translation for use in the United States, and it was published by Catholic Book Publishing Company.

    But the USCCB did not finish its translation of the complete missal before the third edition of the Latin Missale Romanum was published, so work on that translation was halted.

    In the USA any approved Spanish translation of the complete Misal Romano can be used, as long as it contains that mid-1980's texto único translation of the Ordinario de la Misa, and as long as the USA does not have its own translation of the complete missal. For a number of years I used the edition from Spain, since I preferred its translation of the proper presidential prayers to those of Mexico's edition.

    Mexico's edition of the Misal Romano (based on the 2nd edition of the MIssale Romanum) has certainly been the most commonly used edition in the USA during the past 25 years or so, but it was never approved as the only edition that could be used in this country.

    The problem with Mexico's fairly recent translation of the third edition of the Missale Romanum being used in the USA is this: it includes some few changes in that texto único translation of the Ordinary of the Mass. So the USCCB Liturgy Secretariat has asked that parishes not purchase that 3rd edition but, rather, wait for its own edition of the complete MIsal Romano.

    By the way, I purchased a copy of Mexico's Misal Romano, 3rd edition, in Querétero in February 2015 for the US equivalent of $66.68. I imagine that the USA's edition - once it appears - will be considerably more expensive than that.
  • Message sent to you, Gustavo. I do have a specific question for you that you can possibly answer since you have the Misal Romano.
  • @ronkrisman... I don't have much hope of getting to Mexico to get my own copy... any ideas on where to get one? Or any online sources for ordering directly from Mexico? Since I am primarily interested in the propers, I don't think the changes in the Ordinary would be a problem for me.
  • OK... The Buena Prensa edition is not available, but this one by BAC is: http://www.buenaprensa.com/misal-romano#.WAZhSiTLLMu

    With shipping, about $110.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 847
    I was under the impression that the USCCB was going to release a new edition of the missal 3rd edition in Spanish for use in the U.S. sometime "soon".
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,429
    Does such a thing as a less expensive "study edition" exist?