The Hymnal Industrial Complex
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,963
    contemporaryworship92 writes:

    My understanding based on this [Musicam Sacram] and other sources is that replacing the proper antiphons at a Low Mass with hymns is the longstanding practice of the church, and that those of you who are arguing against ever doing this are the ones who are arguing for rupture in our liturgical practice.


    CW92 is right that Musicam Sacram para. 32 made this provision, but I think it would be a mistake to look on it as a simple continuation of previous practice.

    First, before MS, vernacular hymns were only supposed to be used in spoken (not sung) Masses, but Musicam Sacram dropped that distinction. Thereafter sung propers could be dropped in the sung Masses where they had formerly been preserved.

    And in spoken Masses before Musicam Sacram, the congregation might sing a vernacular hymn at the time of a proper, but the proper itself had been at least vestigially preserved: that is, the priest said it.

    This provision of MS and its expansion in GIRM 48, 74, and 87 made the prescribed texts of the Entrance, Offertory and Communion antiphons completely dispensable. This was a failure to preserve the integrity of the Roman rite.
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  • davido
    Posts: 1,002
    I don’t think it’s a sin against charity to argue whether “Gather us in” or “Laetare Jerusalem” should be sung as mass begins on 3/30/25.
    We have 50 years of experience to demonstrate the effects of the two different kinds of religion that the two pieces of music represent. I think it would be un-charitable and dangerous to my children’s spiritual future to not pursue this argument.

    Also, our Catholic unity is in our creeds and our reception of the Eucharist. Where does it say we can’t argue within the confines of our shared unity?
    Thanked by 3MatthewRoth OMagnumMysterium rich_enough
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,604
    Yes. There are relatively few people willing to admit it, but the Byzantine rites must be destroyed according to the principles that actually underly TC, because they are those that animate the postconciliar reform in general and especially in what we consider its excesses, the things that shouldn’t have been done at all.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,986
    I am saddened that there seemed to be a moment where a certain rubicon was crossed, and charity appeared to become scant. Hopefully we can continue to engage in conversation whilst reintroducing more of that foundational principle.

    In any case, I really don't like the line of reasoning where, once someone takes a stand on one thing, they are expected to also take stands on others. "If you're such a fan of ____, then where were you when we were decrying _____?!?!" sort of thing.

    There has been a cultural death of speciality and the reverence it genuinely deserves. Not all opinions are equal. (As I have joked to parishioners before, you should trust your cardiologist's opinion about your heart more than mine, and you should trust my opinion about music more than his!)

    I think it's OK that someone like Prof. K argues in favor of the restoration of the Old Rite, while others make the case for an improved Novus Ordo. There is room for both positions to coexist. And, ultimately, I believe both are good. (At least insofar as one can desire that the old rite be liberated and allowed to freely coexist, and this does not have to be to the detriment of the NO.) It is also a simple fact that, until such a time as one rite or the other is officially abrogated, the need for both to flourish and be done reverently and beautifully will never cease. I am absolutely sympathetic to the old rite, and I would be perfectly at ease if we all went back to it 100% of the time tomorrow. That said, that's not our reality, and we need to continue to labor in the trenches to improve the situation as best we can, wherever we are, for the Glory of God and the sanctification of His faithful.

    We also need to not fall prey to the fallacy that you cannot agree with someone's general premise unless you agree on all the details. Perhaps you don't like one or two of the finer points of Prof. K's opinions. Does that mean he should be written off wholesale? No, it does not. The same goes for opposing opinions. This modern cultural trend of "sound bites" being lobbed as fodder for cancellation is not healthy. Similarly, I do not think an entire organization (CMAA / NLM) should be condemned because of the opinions of one contributor.

    If this conversation has borne any reality out, it is that there is legitimate room for disagreement (and, I daresay, confusion) regarding these matters. The authentic magisterium will have to clarify these things for us. In the meantime, we can each only do the best we can do. At a minimum, let's continue to support each other while we do it, and not presuppose any ill-will on the part of those who hold the opposite opinions.
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  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,933
    davido:

    I have a more profound and influential understanding of the creed through the music of Gounod’s St Cecilia Mass than through any other setting of those words I have heard.


    I'm glad I'm not the only one. Laugh all you want, but listening to this piece on repeat years and years ago was a key factor of my reversion.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,604
    I won’t laugh even if I may feel that it’s not my favorite (SIR knows why, it’s fine, he ribs me all the time, richly deserved each time).
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • Charles_Weaver
    Posts: 100
    Gounod's Domine non sum dignus tropes in the Agnus of that Mass are quite original. Of course, the Domine salvum fac Imperatorem is also quite impressive!

    But as far as settings of the central mystery of the incarnation, passion, and resurrection go, I would have to vote for Beethoven's Missa solemnis as one of the more profound but under-appreciated settings, at least among liturgical musicians.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen StimsonInRehab
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