The Hymnal Industrial Complex
  • francis
    Posts: 10,917
    2002 Missale Romanum, Editio Typica Tertia Emendata (2008)

    That is the officially promulgated standard and liturgical norm for the Roman Church right now.
    And what of those who use the 1962 or before? Is it officially promulgated? Is it a standard and liturgical norm?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,599
    .
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,110
    cf. Traditionis Custodes, which I already know you dislike.

    Art. 1. The liturgical books promulgated by Saint Paul VI and Saint John Paul II, in conformity with the decrees of Vatican Council II, are the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite.

    Art. 8. Previous norms, instructions, permissions, and customs that do not conform to the provisions of the present Motu Proprio are abrogated.


    cf. Desiderio Desideravi

    61. We are called continually to rediscover the richness of the general principles exposed in the first numbers of Sacrosanctum Concilium, grasping the intimate bond between this first of the Council’s constitutions and all the others. For this reason we cannot go back to that ritual form which the Council fathers, cum Petro et sub Petro, felt the need to reform, approving, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and following their conscience as pastors, the principles from which was born the reform. The holy pontiffs St. Paul VI and St. John Paul II, approving the reformed liturgical books ex decreto Sacrosancti Œcumenici Concilii Vaticani II, have guaranteed the fidelity of the reform of the Council. For this reason I wrote Traditionis custodes, so that the Church may lift up, in the variety of so many languages, one and the same prayer capable of expressing her unity.

    As I have already written, I intend that this unity be re-established in the whole Church of the Roman Rite.


  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,599
    yeah, Mark, because the pope doesn't want me to be Catholic. He is explicit that, despite the promise made by his predecessor, there was no place for me and others like me in the church. So why even bring this up? It's patently rude and disgraceful, doubly so since the insistence on the new rite is a matter of positive law not rooted in reality, unlike Summorum Pontificum— Francis's letter is apparently filled with falsehoods, which we knew to be so at the time, but Cardinal Roche confirms it. We can also compare to Benedict's letter to the bishops accompanying his own motu proprio.

    The pope desires a false unity, unless we suppress all of the other myriad usages and deviations from the editio typica. Again, which does not have a true typical edition of the lectionary, which is a disgrace. I basically don't want to hear repeated claims about the need to translate Scripture from the vernacular, because if nothing else, nothing requires a vernacular reading. Not even the gospel can be in Latin without being naughty and using the Vulgate. Which fazes me not one iota, but I know that people here think that it's terrible to make the best of a horrible circumstance. Further, the pope failed to mention the other rites and above all the office…what are we doing here?

    As to the lectionary itself, the Benedictus itself is omitted from the gospel of the feast of the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist. A good friend far more knowledgeable about the liturgy than I am put it thusly: "There is no bottom."

    And as to the pope…how many parishes sing (full Gregorian) Vespers on Sundays and the chief feasts? It's not their fault that the antiphonale was not revised for nearly forty years, but it's been almost totally neglected even in the vernacular. My pastor even explicitly reminds us from time to time that by doing Vespers, we are faithful to the conciliar decree. I can't help it if the other parishes and the cathedral refuse to be obedient.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,986
    Francis, your analogy of conjoined twins is a very thought-provoking one.
    Thanked by 2francis CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,956
    Jeffrey wrote;
    First there was the bit about the views and predilections of many of The Former Gregorian Institute of America's staff.


    I should intervene to clarify an old myth about GIA. GIA isn't a corporate successor to the old Gregorian Institute of America; it's a commercial publisher that bought the rights to the Institute's intellectual property when the Institute folded (which was obviously a tragic mistake, whoever did it).

    The company at some point renamed itself, leading to the common confusion.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,956
    Let's set aside the talk about Traditional Custodians, as it's off-topic for this thread.
  • Here's a routine reminder: Avoid flames: critique principles, not people. Be discriminating but don't nitpick. Be academic not acerbic. Be principled not polemical.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,195
    The change in ownership occurred in 1967.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,599
    GIA should change its name entirely imho. The confusion is their fault. Nevertheless they are a Catholic publisher, even if I don’t agree with the critical tactic which launched this post.
  • The introduction of option 4 is a new concept in the construction of what music to use.


    I don't think this is the case. Musicam Sacram states the following:
    32. The custom legitimately in use in certain places and widely confirmed by indults, of substituting other songs for the songs given in the Graduale for the Entrance, Offertory and Communion, can be retained according to the judgment of the competent territorial authority, as long as songs of this sort are in keeping with the parts of the Mass, with the feast or with the liturgical season. It is for the same territorial authority to approve the texts of these songs.

    My understanding based on this and other sources is that replacing the proper antiphons at a Low Mass with hymns is the longstanding practice of the church, and that those of you who are arguing against ever doing this are the ones who are arguing for rupture in our liturgical practice.

    Musicam Sacram also states:
    28. The distinction between solemn, sung and read Mass, sanctioned by the Instruction of 1958 (n. 3), is retained, according to the traditional liturgical laws at present in force. However, for the sung Mass (Missa cantata), different degrees of participation are put forward here for reasons of pastoral usefulness, so that it may become easier to make the celebration of Mass more beautiful by singing, according to the capabilities of each congregation.

    These degrees are so arranged that the first may be used even by itself, but the second and third, wholly or partially, may never be used without the first. In this way the faithful will be continually led towards an ever greater participation in the singing.

    My understanding of this text and the ranked degrees for singing that follow, is that 99+% of Masses in a typical parish setting are celebrating read Masses. From what I see the text of Musicam Sacram saying, the "four hymn sandwich" is in fact what the letter of the law calls for at a read Mass.

    You seem to say that the Council has paved the way for new compositions by this statement. I could see that. However, I do not know the mind of the Council on this question and I suspect you do not either.

    I don't this this topic is of central importance to the outcome of this discussion, but we do have on record the thoughts of Bugninni and his co-workers on this topic, and this has been discussed on this and other forums:


    According to Paul Inwood:
    Fr Pierre Jounel, the French liturgist and teacher who was a member of a number of the working groups of the Consilium in the years following Sacrosanctum Concilium, said in the course of a lecture in 1977 that those responsible for the liturgical reforms seriously contemplated omitting the antiphons from the 1969/70 Missale Romanum altogether. He said the only reason they retained the antiphons was so that those who wanted to continue to use the Latin chants of the Graduale could do so. The phrase he used was “to placate the Gregorianists”.


    And according to Bugninni's The Reform of the Liturgy, 1948-1975:
    Meanwhile, especially as use of the vernacular in the liturgy was extended, the situation changed completely. The principal role in choosing and adopting repertories of songs for celebrations in the vernacular had to be left to the episcopal conferences; a Roman group could only provide general criteria for passing judgment. The entrance and communion antiphons of the Missal were intended to be recited, not sung, and to inspire the creation of suitable songs in the vernacular.


    In the 2014 MusicaSacraForum thread linked to above, Chonak quoted the following from the 1975 U.S. GIRM:
    Although the Sacramentary is a book of presidential prayers said by the priest, for the sake of completeness this edition does contain the brief sung antiphons for the entrance and communion processions. These are printed in smaller type in order to indicate that they are not ordinarily said by the priest and indeed are not parts of a Sacramentary.

    The general instruction takes for granted that there will be singing at the entrance of the priest and other ministers (and at the communion rite; see nos. 26, 56, 83, 119), certainly in the Sunday celebration of the Eucharist. When the antiphons are set to music, they may be used for this purpose, i.e., as refrains to psalms. Ordinarily, however, it is expected that full use will be made of the decision to employ appropriate substitutes sung by the congregation with a cantor or choir. For the United States the National Conference of Catholic Bishops has given the criteria for texts to be sung as entrance songs. (See "Notes to the General Instruction," no. 26, below.)

    Only in the absence of song is the entrance antiphon used as a spoken or recited text. Since these antiphons are too abrupt for communal recitation, it is preferable when there is no singing that the priest (or the deacon, other minister, or commentator) adapt the antiphon and incorporate it in the presentation of the Mass of the day. After the initial greeting, "the priest, deacon, or other minister may very briefly introduce the Mass of the day" (Order of Mass, no. 3). The adaptation of the text of the entrance antiphon for this purpose is suggested by the Congregation for Divine Worship (Instruction on Particular Calendars and Offices, June 24, 1970, no. 40a).
  • I am willing to grant for the sake of argument that option 1 is the preferred option for Novus Ordo Masses celebrated entirely in Latin.

    This is very important. Whatever you may want to claim about hierarchical preference elsewhere, if the "hermeneutic of continuity" is to be believed and honored, and the VERY CLEAR teaching of Sacrosanctum Concilium is to be followed, then there is simply no getting around the fact that chanting from the GR is the preferred option here. And if that cannot be done, then the next best thing is the Simplex, which was specifically formulated for those who had difficulty achieving the ideal of using the GR for everything. There is just no getting around it. Latin chant is to receive the "principem locum" (first place). And, coincidently, it is listed as the first option in the GIRM.

    SC was careful to specify that Latin & chant were to be preserved in the Roman rite. They are to be normative. The fact that alternate antiphons which can be spoken when no music is provided exists, in no way negates the usage of the former antiphons which are perfectly serviceable in the new rite. As alluded to earlier, the Gregorian Missal arranges them in official fashion for the new calendar, for instance.


    For Novus Ordo Masses celebrated at least partially in the vernacular, I don't think you can make this argument. It seems clear to me that when Musicam Sacram discusses a Mass celebrated partially in the vernacular, that generally the propers of the Mass should be in the vernacular while the ordinary remains in Latin:
    47. According to the Constitution on the Liturgy, "the use of the Latin language, with due respect to particular law, is to be preserved in the Latin rites."[30]

    However, since "the use of the vernacular may frequently be of great advantage to the people"[31] "it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used. Its decrees have to be approved, that is, confirmed by the Apostolic See."[32]

    In observing these norms exactly, one will therefore employ that form of participation which best matches the capabilities of each congregation.

    Pastors of souls should take care that besides the vernacular "the faithful may also be able to say or sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them."[33]


    The reality on the ground is that most Masses are celebrated entirely in the vernacular. Given that the Graduale Romanum and Graduale Simplex are available only in Latin, it would be highly paradoxical and contrary to the text of Vatican II to sing from the GR or GS while having everything else in English.

    I understand some people on this forum, and other groups such as Source & Summit and Corpus Christi Watershed, to be arguing that in such circumstances, an obedient Catholic ought to chant the antiphons in the vernacular. I think this is an incoherent position. Once we've gotten to this point, we're no longer talking about preserving 2,000 years of musical tradition, we're instead talking about singing new music that has entirely been composted post-1970. I have some experience working with these resources, and I am presently very unimpressed with the quality of the music in them. And speaking of continuity with tradition, the English hymn tradition and even the gospel music tradition significantly pre-date the official translation of the Roman Missal into English.

    For these reasons, I think that for anyone working in a parish that celebrates the Mass largely in the vernacular, option 4 is typically the best option to choose.
  • I would also like to draw attention to an important qualifier in the text of Musicam Sacram regarding the pride of place of Gregorian chant:

    50. In sung liturgical services celebrated in Latin:

    (a) Gregorian chant, as proper to the Roman liturgy, should be given pride of place, other things being equal.[34] Its melodies, contained in the "typical" editions, should be used, to the extent that this is possible.

    (b) "It is also desirable that an edition be prepared containing simpler melodies, for use in smaller churches."[36]

    (c) Other musical settings, written for one or more voices, be they taken from the traditional heritage or from new works, should be held in honor, encouraged and used as the occasion demands.[36]


    Emphasis added.

    My understanding is that chant can only be Gregorian chant when the chant is in Latin. It is thus not possible to give Gregorian chant the pride of place in an entirely vernacular liturgy.

    Correspondingly, where one has influence over the matter, it is better to increase the degree to which the people chant the ordinary of the Mass in Latin, than it is to attempt to chant the propers, whether in English or in Latin.
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 568
    But the next point in Musicam Sacram:

    51. Pastors of souls, having taken into consideration pastoral usefulness and the character of their own language, should see whether parts of the heritage of sacred music, written in previous centuries for Latin texts, could also be conveniently used, not only in liturgical celebrations in Latin but also in those performed in the vernacular. There is nothing to prevent different parts in one and the same celebration being sung in different languages.

  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 568
    MS 56, 59:

    56. Among the melodies to be composed for the people's texts, those which belong to the priest and ministers are particularly important, whether they sing them alone, or whether they sing them together with the people, or whether they sing them in "dialogue" with the people. In composing these, musicians will consider whether the traditional melodies of the Latin liturgy, which are used for this purpose, can inspire the melody to be used for the same texts in the vernacular.

    59. Musicians will enter on this new work with the desire to continue that tradition which has furnished the Church, in her divine worship, with a truly abundant heritage. Let them examine the works of the past, their types and characteristics, but let them also pay careful attention to the new laws and requirements of the liturgy, so that "new forms may in some way grow organically from forms that already exist,"[41] and the new work will form a new part in the musical heritage of the Church, not unworthy of its past.

    No one can write English Gregorian chant. But composers of vernacular liturgical music ought to begin their work from the Graduale, not in GarageBand.
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 671
    My understanding based on this and other sources is that replacing the proper antiphons at a Low Mass with hymns is the longstanding practice of the church


    They were/are not replaced. The propers at Low Mass are recited by the priest. Hymns were/are basically tossed to the laity to give them something to do while the Mass is spoken by the priest, but the ritual and textual integrity of the Mass itself is not compromised by this.

    Part of the issue here, too, is the complete loss of the distinction between missa lecta and missa cantata in the New Mass.
    Thanked by 1LauraKaz
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,956
    As important as the music is, it is even more important to preserve the texts of the Mass, and this is what is done when proper antiphons are sung in the vernacular. To omit them and replace them with texts invented by some poet is, as CDW (or S.R.C., I suppose) put it in Notitiae, to rob the faithful.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,986
    My understanding based on this and other sources is that replacing the proper antiphons at a Low Mass with hymns is the longstanding practice of the church, and that those of you who are arguing against ever doing this are the ones who are arguing for rupture in our liturgical practice.
    based on some research I did on JSTOR pertaining to Trent and music reform, there were pockets, especially in Germany, where vernacular hymn singing was permitted on high holy days as a treat for the laity, but it was not normative week in and week out.

    As for vernacular chant, plainchant can be adapted into the vernacular VERY successfully. Look at Fr. Weber’s collections, for instance. I’ll even offer my own adaptation of the Lent V communio into English which you can preview here (ignore the little “choral expansion”; otherwise it’s almost note-for-note true to the original, and maintains the original word order by and large) https://youtu.be/Q9Ya8Zlsz_Y?si=5WoIHrEWauHTZZh4

    Then there is Pius X’s rule (reiterated by JPII in 2003) about new liturgical compositions needing to approach in their form and savor the “supreme model” of Gregorian chant. So even if you want to argue for completely vernacular mass, there still needs to be recourse to vernacular chant and polyphony. These are genuinely sacral idioms which can be rendered well in the vernacular without losing too much of their essence, and in any case, they are both leagues closer to the historical ideal than the music typically encountered at modern masses in the average suburban parish.

    Regardless of some of our disagreements, I sincerely appreciate CW92’s quotations and thoughtful commentary above.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,986
    so that "new forms may in some way grow organically from forms that already exist,"
    this is what I try to do with my psalmody, by using ancient chants as the basis for modern vernacular adaptations. Here are but two of a hundred such examples. I’ll leave you to decide their merits.)
    https://youtu.be/JVCmwzMa2is?si=n1cYdbofLkoZzA31
    https://youtu.be/50Tlmh4RgOA?si=j-hMTCfH-Js2bb4o
    Thanked by 1Xopheros
  • DavidOLGCDavidOLGC
    Posts: 107

    As for vernacular chant, plainchant can be adapted into the vernacular VERY successfully. Look at Fr. Weber’s collections, for instance.


    I agree. We have been using Fr. Weber's English chants in NO masses and they are simple and effective.
    Thanked by 2MarkB ServiamScores
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,110
    I don’t want to type an excessively long entry, but I think some recent scholarship addresses what contemporaryworship92 has been saying and provides direction for the future of celebrating the reformed Mass in the vernacular while maintaining continuity with the Church’s liturgical past and tradition.

    The books I have found especially helpful and will cite are:
    Context and Text, Revised Edition, by Kevin W. Irwin
    What We Have Done, What We Have Failed to Do by Kevin W. Irwin
    Catholic Music Through the Ages by Edward Schaefer
    Sacred Music and Liturgical Reform by Anthony Ruff, OSB

    My own syntopic assessment and conclusions as a result of reading, thinking, and experience in parish liturgical music may be concisely expressed in the paragraphs below.

    The vast majority of Masses celebrated in the United States are spoken Masses with four or five songs added to the liturgy. The songs are often contemporary in style, which seems to be suitable because the songs loosely resemble the style of music that people are accustomed to hearing and enjoy listening to when they are not at Mass. The more that the dialogues and the ordinary of the Mass are sung as intended (i.e., chanted using the Missal’s tones) instead of spoken, the more contemporary songs will sound incongruous with the liturgy and seem out of place. The more that the Mass texts are chanted, the more chanting other music will seem and sound preferable to singing contemporary music at Mass.

    The antiphons are provided as part of the Mass of the day. Although it is permissible to replace the antiphons with songs, doing so should be considered suboptimal because it means that a text of the Mass that the Church has given us to sing is being replaced with something not foreseen by the Church and subject to the whims and flawed judgment of the person making the substitution. The optimal choice is to sing the proper antiphons for the Mass of the day.

    Given the development that Mass is celebrated almost entirely in the vernacular and that Catholics have little comprehension of Latin, antiphons sung in English utilizing Gregorian tones or adapted from the original Gregorian melodies of the traditional antiphons could be considered a legitimate development of the Gregorian chant tradition into languages beyond Latin.

    In conclusion, the optimal celebration of the reformed Mass, with due consideration for all the Church’s norms and traditions, seems to me to be: 1) sung Mass dialogues and ordinary, chanted using the Missal’s tones in the vernacular and at least sometimes in Latin; and 2) sung antiphons, mostly in the vernacular, using Gregorian-inspired melodies, and sometimes including the Latin original of the antiphon.


    The citations provided below will offer support from authors for my statement above and some indication of how I arrived at that stance.

    From Edward Schaefer, Catholic Music Through the Ages:

    We have become comfortable with a liturgy that is punctuated by a series of musical interludes, but which is itself not sung. Rather than respecting the ages-old tradition of a sung liturgy, this process of punctuating a spoken liturgy with numerous musical interludes has actually created the effect of stopping the liturgy frequently in order to sing something, which may or may not be intrinsic to the liturgy itself. (p. 166)

    Thus, as the Church for her entire history has placed primacy on chant as “the music proper to the Roman liturgy,” we must trust in a deeper wisdom of this mandate and commit ourselves to rediscovering the sung Mass and to restoring chant to its rightful place in our liturgical prayer. We cannot overestimate the formative power of this music and this way of praying the liturgy. (p. 180)

    Reestablishing the Missa cantata as the parochial norm will not be easy in a culture that has fully embraced the Missa lecta as the standard for its public worship. However, even if a full scale return to the Missa cantata as normative may be unrealistic as a first step, we must at least reestablish it as the preeminent means of liturgical prayer, the model, if you will, toward which we strive. (p. 181)

    The formal argument against the use of hymns at Mass is that they are not truly a part of the Liturgy. As a result, they tend to inculcate the ideology of singing things at Mass rather than actually singing the Mass. In addition, their indiscriminate use carries with it a significant danger with regard to forming congregations in beliefs that are not actually part of the Catholic canon…. [M]ost of the musicians who select these hymns and songs for weekly Masses in most cases are not adequately equipped to make decisions about the orthodoxy of the texts in the music they select for their congregations to sing. (p. 193)


    From Kevin W. Irwin, Context and Text, Revised Edition:

    [T]he value of Gregorian chant is that its simplicity, when compared with polyphony, facilitates the assembly’s active participation in singing. Also, its role in enhancing the texts of the liturgy, as opposed to texts set to music from sources other than the Bible or the liturgy (for example, hymn texts), appropriately focuses attention on the texts of the liturgy themselves…. The singing of chant, or a similar musical idiom that is (comparatively) simple, matched to the texts of the liturgy is what is paramount in order to facilitate participation (not a particular musical style or even of the Latin language.) (p. 443)

    [T]he deficiency of substituting hymns for these [proper antiphon] chants is that they replace the biblical text of the psalter. What ought to be a central source for the Christian’s liturgical and personal prayer – the psalter – is at least eclipsed if not ignored when hymns are sung. The Roman Catholic liturgical context in Eucharist does not countenance hymns at entrance, presentation, or communion. (p. 448)

    One might legitimately argue, however, that the singing of hymns at the Roman Catholic Eucharist is an example of inculturation, since hymns continue to nurture the faith of many communities in an idiom that invites easy participation…. If hymns are sung, however, one would have to ask to what extent their texts are drawn from the antiphons printed in the present Graduale or Missale, lest additional and possibly quite unrelated theological themes are found in the hymns. We would argue that the entrance antiphons given in the Roman Missal should be understood as providing a model for the content of what is actually sung at the entrance rite of the liturgy. (p. 451)

    [Antiphons] offer a juxtaposition of biblical images that offer multivalence in action. That is, rather than tell a story, reiterate the gospel, or explain a mystery (“O Most Holy Trinity”), the images embedded in antiphons offer at least a patchwork quilt, not to say a kaleidoscope of images, that the gathered assembly can rely on (because they are from the Scriptures). This variety can complement, not repeat, what the proclaimed Scriptures enact and what euchological prayers say, understanding that prayers, too, are thoroughly biblically inspired. Our argument is that, among the other books of the Bible, the Psalter is the church’s prayer book and deserves to be sung at every opportunity. (pp. 460-61)

  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,110
    From Kevin W. Irwin, What We Have Done, What We Have Failed to Do:

    [A]ntiphons and psalm verses more easily accompany processions and enable us to view what is occurring while we are singing the antiphon to accompany that action. I wonder whether our worship aids at this part of the Mass are not so filled with hymn texts that we find ourselves glued to them at the risk of not participating in the liturgical action by watching. This is to suggest that the number of psalm verses sung varies depending on the length of the entrance and communion processions. (p. 183)

    If it took centuries for the Liber Usualis to be codified for use up until the reformed liturgy of Vatican II, I think it not improper to suggest that not everything we have sung at the liturgy after Vatican II deserves to be continued. (p. 187)


    From Anthony Ruff, OSB, Sacred Music and Liturgical Reform:

    I would characterize the nature of the Gregorian chant Mass Propers as liturgical lectio divina by means of high art…. The spirituality of chant is none other than the spirituality of the Scriptures. Gregorian chant is lectio divina (sacred reading, praying with the Bible) in the sense of being a means of meditation upon Scripture. But it is lectio divina in common – liturgical. The Word of God resounds in the liturgical assembly. The message of salvation is not merely recalled, it is made present now in the highest act of the Church, the liturgy. (p. 495)

    Given the scant knowledge of Latin among most modern-day worshippers and the scant use of Latin in Catholic worship, one should hardly think that sensitive interpretation of chant will guarantee that the listener will be better able to meditate on the Latin text as the composer(s) intended…. The issue of authenticity is not so much an issue of the rhythms sung by the singers as an issue of the cultural and spiritual context of the listeners…. [T]he original context of Gregorian chant is largely lost, and any account of the role of chant in the reformed liturgy must deal with this reality. (pp. 496-97)

    Perhaps the most authentic vernacular chant would be entirely newly-composed chant that grows out of the nature of the vernacular text. Such newly-composed vernacular chant, to the extent that it is a successful synthesis of word and tone, could in a real sense be called “Gregorian” chant. Such vernacular chant could well foster a spirituality of artistic proclamation and contemplative reception. (pp. 498-99)

    Very little of the inherited Gregorian chant repertoire is suited for congregational singing in parish settings. But it is desirable that Roman rite congregations in all cultures be able to sing a minimum repertoire of Latin chant. (p. 505)

    It is virtually impossible to employ Gregorian chant in the modern liturgy in a way faithful to its original context. This is true for several reasons, above all the lack of familiarity with the Latin text on the part of listening worshippers. (p. 507)

  • As important as the music is, it is even more important to preserve the texts of the Mass

    I agree so far

    , and this is what is done when proper antiphons are sung in the vernacular

    This is where I start to question whether the theory and the situation in practice align. There is the Latin text of the Graduale, which has no official English translation, and which was developed for a liturgical cycle with only one set of readings. Then there are the Roman Missal antiphons, which sometimes match the Graduale, but sometimes appear to have been created by Bugninni. Which is to say, I don't see a strong reason to make sure texts that were introduced into the liturgy circa 1970 are preserved till Christ returns in glory.

    To omit them and replace them with texts invented by some poet is, as CDW put it in Notitiae, to rob the faithful.


    There's a wide degree of possibility here. Is the new text:
    -Verbatim scripture, e.g., using option 4 to choose singing the exact text of some portion of, say, the Gospel for the communion antiphon?
    -Poetically paraphrased scripture, and the poet is Isaac Watts or Charles Wesley?
    -Poetically paraphrased scripture, and the poet is John Foley, S.J. or Bob Hurd?
    -Poetically paraphrased scripture, and the poet is Marty Haugen?
    -Not any specific scripture passage, but clearly drawing from a lot of scripture, e.g. O God Beyond All Praising
    -Not really scriptural, and with a vacuous text (e.g. Good Good Father) or text with a questionably placed emphasis (e.g. Gather Us In)
    -Either explicitly heterodox or highly implying heterodoxy, such as Sing A New Church, As a Fire is Meant for Burning, God is Here! As We His People, etc.

    I think we all agree that it's still possible to create good new texts that have a strong basis in scripture or simply are scripture set to a new melody. I think we also all agree that the church is drowning in contemporary music that does this job very badly and we all want something to be done about it.

    I also presume that at least many of us agree that, for example, many of the hymns in the St. Michael Hymnal have excellent texts that are worthy of being used as option 4 in the GIRM.

    I think that there are a decent number of praise and worship songs that also fit this criteria. And also many more terrible ones that don't, and that it's a big problem when people choose the terrible one nonetheless.


    Regardless of some of our disagreements, I sincerely appreciate CW92’s quotations and thoughtful commentary above.

    Thank you for the kind words Serviam!


    Been listening to this on repeat! I really like this piece. Serviam, I'm familiar with your YouTube channel, and I think your recordings are excellent and among the best on YouTube. I also used one of your Psalms once for a funeral and was very impressed!
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,051
    I remember reading those passages from Fr. Ruff's book years ago and thinking, "So the Church's teaching that Gregorian chant is proper to the Roman rite and should take 'first place' really is a dead letter." Here is a scholar who loves the chant and sings it every day in his monastic community, but it is his considered opinion, after 500 pages of scholarship, that Gregorian chant simply doesn't work in a parish setting. I was floored.

    The claim seems to rest on the notion of the "original context" of the chant, which obviously does not equate with a current congregation in a parish. But instead of advocating for a formation of the "cultural and spiritual context of the listeners" in such a way that they could pray with the chant, he believes that vernacular chant is the best option. But how is this preserving the "treasury" of sacred music as Sacrosanctum concilium called for? It seems at best a compromised or accommodated "solution" which in reality means the death of the authentic repertoire of chant.

    Leaving aside the dubious notion of an "original context" of the chant (9th century Frankish monasteries?), Fr. Ruff also ignores the many parishes where Gregorian chant is heard fruitfully in the liturgy on a regular basis despite his scholarly notions. Prayer is more than the rational understanding of texts. More than this, congregations can be taught that the liturgy - and chant in particular - really is a "school of prayer," if we take it as it is and not attempt to conform it to our own ways of thinking and feeling: it is meant to form us, not vice versa. This is done primarily simply by doing the liturgy well, as it is meant to be done, without apology. And as the Church herself teaches, Gregorian chant is an integral part of this enterprise.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,018
    The Dutch bishops use five categories of liturgical music (in order of preference; emphasis from the original):

    1. Preference should be given to chants that use the prescribed liturgical text from the relevant Mass formulary (especially for the Entrance Antiphon, Communion Antiphon, Responsorial Psalm, and Gospel Acclamation).

    2. Where these are not available, other chants may be chosen, with priority given to psalms and biblical canticles, as these have traditionally held a central place in the liturgy.

    3. Next in consideration are chants with other biblical texts, whether in translation or adaptation.

    4. Next, hymns should originate from liturgical sources.

    5. Finally, hymns with freely composed texts may be used, provided they explicitly express the Catholic faith and are suitable for the specific liturgical context and function.

    Within the first four categories, a distinction can be made between translation, paraphrase, and allusion.

    Note that the Dutch bishops only make reference to the texts, not to the musical form. With regard to musical form, in order to avoid a discussion about styles, it is good to make a distinction between (though they are in no way black and white):
    - impressive music (like Gregorian chant)
    - meditative music (like Taizé)
    - expressive music (like Festival Alleluia)
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,194
    While Fr. Ruff has done a good bit of scholarship on chant, after reading him, I realized (and was reminded in this thread) that he has sold out to the modernists. The best thing to do is to not read his books and/or quote him.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,110
    Oh, but is Peter Kwasniewski, who recently has gone full-throttle advocating the abrogation of the post-conciliar liturgy and the complete restoration of pre-1955 liturgical rites, okay to quote and read?

    https://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2025/02/close-workshop-why-old-mass-isnt-broken.html

    The New Liturgical Movement, which features PK as a regular contributor, is affiliated with/sponsored by CMAA, which also runs this forum.

    That latest article by PK appearing on NLM moved me ever closer to the conclusion that maybe I could no longer trust NLM or CMAA or this forum or CMAA events because they are calcifying in the pre-conciliar, traditionalist liturgical camp. Yet I remain a discerning, objective, evaluative reader rather than dismissing either organization outright.

    Still, I don't understand anymore where CMAA and NLM stand regarding the Church's liturgy, Vatican II, liturgical norms, and the post-conciliar Mass vis-a-vis the pre-conciliar Mass. It seems clear to me that a stance such as what PK has recently advocated should be outside the boundaries for a Catholic and retracted or disavowed by NLM and CMAA. But both organizations appear to endorse his view since neither has expressed any reservations about it.

    If Fr. Ruff is a modernist, is not PK a schismatic?

    Really, it seems to me from articles I've read and comments on this forum that the advocates for the pre-conciliar liturgy are hardening in their positions against the Second Vatican Council and against the liturgical reform.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,195
    The Latin vs vernacular angle is not a sufficient solvent to interpolate a personal/practical gloss on "suited" in the GIRM that has the effect of narrowing its interpretation so dramatically - particularly because the most recent Missal and GIRM have used that language without any regard to that angle, an angle that while it was relatively new for the first postconciliar edition of the Missal is now several decades old - and Rome could have decided to clarify that "suited" including the language angle but in fact did not.
  • Here's a routine reminder: Please stay on the original topic of the thread.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,195
    MarkB

    PK seems more of the smaller camp that, in shopping for traditionalism, has seemed to prefer resetting all liturgical clocks back before the pontificate of Pope St Pius X, but for certain sanctoral observances.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,917
    Et al
    If Fr. Ruff is a modernist, is not PK a schismatic?

    IMVHO, we have no business calling a particular person a “this” or “that”. You may speak of the message of such as leaning one way or another, but labeling a person a particular “brand” of Catholic may border on calumny. Perhaps retract and go to confession.
  • This might best be the subject of another thread, but:

    To the best that I can tell, Peter Kwasniewski is presently a dissenting theologian.

    Does the CMAA, NLM, this forum, et. al. stand for doing what the Church asks with the liturgy, or does it stand for explicitly not doing what the Church asks so as to change the Church's liturgy to match the views of dissenting theologians?

    Peter Kwasniewski has gone pretty far in his public statements, and I'm scandalized by the absence of pushback from the people who platform him.

    I think most members of the CMAA would be upset to see Fr. Charles Curran added as regular blog contributor, conference speaker, etc. And would be justified in that feeling, especially if there was no attempt to inform the audience where he might be accurately re-stating Church teaching vs. explicitly dissenting from it, or to distinguish whether his dissenting views were representative of the organization vs. being some kind of op-ed. I have similar feelings about platforming Peter Kwasniewski, especially with none of these kinds of clarifications being given.
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 347
    The introduction of option 4 is a new concept in the construction of what music to use.

    Reading this it occurred to me that actually it is another step in a trajectory that reaches back into the Middle Ages: importing practices from Low Mass into Solemn Mass. For example, things like the priest reading the lections at the altar while the (Sub)Deacon sang them was a matter of priests doing at Solemn Mass what they were used to doing at Low Mass (which they celebrated far more frequently). Low Mass with hymns was a not-uncommon practice in many countries, and what we have now is Low Mass with hymns replacing Solemn Mass (dressed up with singing some other things). So while choosing a hymn to replace the propers might be a new concept, importing practices from Low Mass is not.
  • Here's a routine reminder: Be academic not acerbic.
  • davido
    Posts: 1,000
    Ruff can trash 2000 years of Gregorian chant because of enculturation concerns, but Kwaskiewski is dissenting because he wants to be Catholic?

    Can’t you see how far the liturgical rupture has moved the boundaries? We’re arguing that you can be Catholic by doing things that Catholics have never done. And now this lunacy is baked into the missal as a feature, not a bug.
    Thanked by 1ProfKwasniewski
  • davido
    Posts: 1,000
    True fcb, but the hymns were not gospel music or street music
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,599
    Oh, but is Peter Kwasniewski, who recently has gone full-throttle advocating the abrogation of the post-conciliar liturgy and the complete restoration of pre-1955 liturgical rites, okay to quote and read?


    Wishing to use the Roman rite of two generations ago is so obviously not the same thing that I hardly qualify this retort as good faith. Plus the man prays for the pope. This puts a huge wrinkle on the schismatic qualifier. And while I have my opinions about Anthony Ruff (including that he’s mediocre enough and also too ideological to know what trads think such that his criticisms never land: about pre-1955, the old hymns, the 1911 reforms…), no one called him a modernist. No one directly accused him of being guilty of a canonical delict, unlike you Mark with respect to Peter.

    Ruff can trash 2000 years of Gregorian chant because of enculturation concerns, but Kwaskiewski is dissenting because he wants to be Catholic? …And now this lunacy is baked into the missal as a feature, not a bug.


    I’d be content to leave Saint John’s alone, and let the Father of all mercies deign to grant that which he pleases in his divine majesty. But Ruff does not wish to leave me and likeminded Catholics alone.

    @contemporaryworship92 Moral theology disputes or dissent are not germane. I push back on Peter when necessary, even publicly. I would sit this one out.
  • @contemporaryworship92 Moral theology disputes or dissent are not germane. I push back on Peter when necessary, even publicly. I would sit this one out.


    I'm not sure if I follow your point here. Is your claim that we can bracket PK's apparently dissenting views on papal authority as they are unrelated to his views on sacred music? The problem here as I see it is that PK's dissenting theological system and his views on sacred music seem to have a fairly direct connection.

    PK claims that ultimately we are obedient to tradition, and that any directives from the Vatican contrary to tradition are null and void as the Church lacks the authority to give any such directives. Such a view clearly implies that the Church is unable to revise its instructions on liturgical music and that option 4 in the GIRM Is not only to be considered the least good option, but that the Church in fact lacks the authority to offer this option and that an obedient Catholic ought never to use this option.

    PK's views about "obedience to tradition" explicitly dissent from the magisterium. They clearly inform his views on sacred music. I don't think this is a bracketable issue.
    Thanked by 1MarkB
  • Since he's on the forum, maybe @ProfKwasniewski will want to chime in himself on these interesting insinuations...
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,599
    Well I would not have tagged him. But well here we are.

    Anyway, people do push back and disagree with Peter, who just wants to do what the church always proposed. It is obviously not like the disobedient (bordering on clinical narcissism) of theologians who were young in the 1960s. It’s always appalling that we need to say it.
    Thanked by 1ProfKwasniewski
  • Well I would not have tagged him. But well here we are.


    It's a public forum. I'd certainly want to at least be aware if someone suggested that I was schismatic/dissenting from the magisterium in such a public fashion. Then I could decide whether to chuckle and move on, or address it directly.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,956
    This would be a good time for participants in this thread to review the Forum Etiquette Guidelines, which are in brief:

    Be Polite
    Write with future readers in mind.
    Understand the Procedure for Job Postings
    Avoid Flames
    Do Not Defame
    Stay On Topic
    No Spam
    Not a Board about Intellectual Property Issues
    Say Who You Are
    Use One Account
    Be patient about legitimate differences in personal taste.
    Be patient about differences in terminology.
    Remember Who We Are
    We're not all native English speakers
    Tell the moderator about inappropriate posts
    Some topics do not belong here.

  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,110
    This forum's traditionalist participants, and CMAA's and NLM's leadership, definitely have their sacred cows. They are allowed to criticize and label so-called "modernist" ideas and their authors, but no one may dare criticize traditionalists nor NLM contributors, even when they are outlandish. In fact, outlandish opinions are not recognized for the extremism that they are but defended as "just being Catholic."

    No, advocating for an exclusive, universal return to the pre-conciliar liturgy in the post-conciliar, post-reform context is not "just being Catholic." It's a rejection and refusal of the liturgical reform in principle and a rejection of Vatican II.

    As I wrote before, I don't agree with the slanted direction that NLM and CMAA have increasingly, progressively taken since July 16, 2021.

    I will reevaluate my continued lurking and participation here.

    Too bad, because this had been a very helpful resource when it was more in line with the thinking of the Church about the liturgical reform and when it seemed CMAA and NLM were more in the reform of the reform camp.

    Catholic liturgy has developed and changed as a result of the post-conciliar liturgical reform. There is no going back to before the Council. I will try to implement the reform as authentically as I can in my circumstances, but I do not have common Catholic ground with people who reject the reform as a matter of principle.
    Thanked by 2Marc Cerisier Elmar
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,956
    CMAA does aim to promote sacred music in the liturgy as approved by Church authority, but it doesn't have any fixed position about whether the current norms and rubrics could be better, or about how well they are implementing the instructions of Vatican II, etc.

    There's no common statement of opinion about such questions, and there doesn't need to be.

    We know that the liturgical prescriptions of the Church are matters of discipline, not doctrine. The simple evidence for this is the fact that the Church has changed the rubrics in various ways in the course of history. Just since 1900: St. Pius X made a substantial reform to the Divine Office, changing the number of psalms in some of the offices. Pope Pius XII made structural revisions to the rites of Holy Week, creating the Chrism Mass. St. John XXIII added St. Joseph's name to the Roman Canon. St. Paul VI made sweeping changes to the Mass, the Divine Office, and the rites of the Sacraments. St. John Paul II extended the permissions to use ritual forms from the reign of St. John XXIII, and Pope Benedict XVI extended those permissions further. Under Pope Francis, limited permission was granted to use Holy Week ceremonies from before the reforms of Pius XII; however, he also reduced the general permissions to observe the liturgy of St. John XXIII.

    Since those popes implemented various reforms, many of which contradicted one another, we know it would be a mistake to treat opinions about which rites were more beneficial as liturgy, or questions about how much diversity there should be in the use of newer or older forms, as if those were questions of magisterial doctrine.

  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,599
    @32ContraBombarde yes, it’s a public forum, but nevertheless, while people should be allowed and encouraged to defend themselves, people don’t necessarily want to be dragged into this. I would not appreciate it, for one, and I would seriously reevaluate the relationship with the person who tagged me.

    but no one may dare criticize traditionalists nor NLM contributors, even when they are outlandish


    @MarkB: how dare you, honestly. I argue with Peter K multiple times a week sometimes. I’ve definitely said things to friends in frustration over other people who otherwise share similar views or goals, but they’re other people, so it’s not a 1:1 match, but I think that some things are out of bounds or are just wrong, or not my cup of tea, or whatever. When they are sufficiently grave, I and others chime in. There’s a wide spectrum allowed. If people would just be left alone, which you’re not capable of doing yourself, so there’s that problem, we wouldn’t be here.

    The reform of the reform went on life support in March 2013. It died, much like Ariel Sharon’s long decline, on July 16, 2021.

    I do not have common Catholic ground with people who reject the reform as a matter of principle.

    The part that I consider rude and in bad faith is that we have patiently and repeatedly explained that the current occupant of the See of Peter does not want me and others like me, including forum participants and CMAA members, to be Catholic at all. You don’t have to like the direction that the CMAA is taking, and you’re free to leave the forum and to no longer associate with the CMAA. But you know, I don’t think that it’s great to basically call Fr. Pasley not Catholic. And remember people who do the NO out of obedience don’t necessarily share your views either, they just are not always in a place to express them publicly and forcefully, and that even privately.
    Thanked by 1ProfKwasniewski
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,123
    Guys, guys....

    I have tried (to some degree of failure) to not have an opinion about Opinions About the Church Crisis. That's because nothing in the past quite looks like the present. My assumption is that everyone involved in the discussion is doing so in good faith. They will come to different conclusions, and that's OK. I have my personal opinions about the crisis as well.

    I have particularly tried to avoid a Magisterium of One, and using that Magisterium to excommunicate people. In the case of certain public figures, that's hard. My list of those public figures may be different from yours.

    I will however note that there's a certain amount of intellectual incoherence in using a personal Magisterium of One to excommunicate people for not being sufficiently in communion with the Magisterium of the Church. That Magisterium is perfectly capable of excommunicating people, if that's necessary. Until that point, perhaps we should uncircle the firing squad.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,956
    I think it's a mistake to suggest that Pope Francis wants supporters of the old Mass to not be Catholic at all; please let's not attribute such motives to people.
    Thanked by 3Liam CHGiffen Elmar
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 671
    As has been discussed on many such threads over the past few years, Mark, your parameters for acceptable Catholic views on the liturgical reform seem to be much narrower than those of the Church.
  • I have tried (to some degree of failure) to not have an opinion about Opinions About the Church Crisis. That's because nothing in the past quite looks like the present.


    I've checked out of the liturgy wars and almost everything else Church wars out of necessity. It's too tiring, and I have too much to do at my own parish. I just do the best music I can and help make the liturgies as high-quality as possible, and work to help bring people closer to God. I'm far better off that way.
  • What I find most interesting in some of the comments here is the complete lack of openness to reevaluating the liturgical reform based on what we now know, both about its original proponents (who were not above dishonesty and riddled with faulty scholarship) and about its effects after several decades. I suppose this is what ideology looks like: as with the Soviets, it could never be Marxism at fault but only the regressive elements of the past that have not yet been fully purged.

    I have made a thorough case for the restoration of the Roman Rite and the rejection of the "banal on the spot fabrication" of liturgists from the 1960s. This case should be judged on its own merits rather than dismissed out of hand. That's how the progressives work, by always attributing bad motives, hidden psychological defects, secret ambitions, or what have you. No, actually, one can disagree with prudential decisions made in or for the Age of Aquarius.

    Here's the case:

    (1) https://www.amazon.com/Once-Future-Roman-Rite-Traditional/dp/1505126622/
    (2) https://www.amazon.com/Bound-Truth-Authority-Obedience-Tradition/dp/1621389626/
    (3) https://www.amazon.com/Close-Workshop-Mass-Broken-Fixed/dp/B0DYF7QJJ4/

    Refute it if you can. If you answer is, "I don't need to bother, because you're a dissenter," you're begging the question in the name of an ultramontanism that looks pretty foolish at this point in history.

    I will conclude with an observation that is obvious to anyone who reads this thread from the top: any liturgy that has caused and can cause so much turmoil, confusion, chaos, and debate, even over the most basic aspects of liturgy as the music to be used during it, is obviously not from God. (Yes, I mean the Novus Ordo.) If saying this makes me a radical, so be it. I embrace the label, because it means someone who goes to the roots.

    I appreciate those who have spoken in my defense. I don't plan to come back here, so I won't see whatever else you say.
  • Here's a routine reminder: Write with future readers in mind.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,599
    With due respect for the moderator:
    I think it's a mistake to suggest that Pope Francis wants supporters of the old Mass to not be Catholic at all; please let's not attribute such motives to people.
    /

    This is just not correct. I am not attributing motivations to anyone. The man did it himself, considering that it’s the most logical reading of his own words.

    consider:
    The faculty… was above all motivated by the desire to foster the healing of the schism with the movement of Mons. Lefebvre


    This was true in 1988. This was not so much the case in 2007. Benedict writes:
    Afterwards, however, it soon became apparent that a good number of people remained strongly attached to this usage of the Roman Rite, which had been familiar to them from childhood…

    We all know that, in the movement led by Archbishop Lefebvre, fidelity to the old Missal became an external mark of identity; the reasons for the break which arose over this, however, were at a deeper level. Many people who clearly accepted the binding character of the Second Vatican Council, and were faithful to the Pope and the Bishops, nonetheless also desired to recover the form of the sacred liturgy that was dear to them…

    t in the meantime it has clearly been demonstrated that young persons too have discovered this liturgical form, felt its attraction and found in it a form of encounter with the Mystery of the Most Holy Eucharist, particularly suited to them…

    It is a matter of coming to an interior reconciliation in the heart of the Church…


    An opportunity offered by St. John Paul II and, with even greater magnanimity, by Benedict XVI, intended to recover the unity of an ecclesial body with diverse liturgical sensibilities, was exploited to widen the gaps, reinforce the divergences, and encourage disagreements that injure the Church, block her path, and expose her to the peril of division.


    This is just not in accordance with reality, both before 2007 and post-TC. It also ignores that so much of the American discontent is actually in conservative (not necessarily ROTR/traditional-leaning) parishes where the NO is exclusively used, where the parishioners in question don’t like or care for the TLM or don’t have opinions on it.

    If only the FSSPX can have the traditional Mass, but they are not in full communion, or at least in regular canonical standing with the ordinary faculties etc., but I seek those, then I cannot be Catholic and also have the traditional Mass. This doesn’t even get at the problem of a supposed regularization of the FSSPX where they become a sort of ordinariate or personal prelature for all traditional Catholics. What about members of religious orders (the Dominicans have never had a schism, unlike the Friars Minor? What about Jesuits in particular)? What if we simply don’t like the culture of the FSSPX, even if it begins to heal post-regularization? What about their liturgical norms? I don’t always care for them! These are not minor details that “well, you have the TLM, be grateful” can brush aside.

    so again, with respect for the moderation: this is a hill on which I’m going to die, and the dancing on the graves which occurred in the days after TC, things like closing the parish of a widow while appearing to negotiate in good faith (all while having signed the agreement for the lone Sunday Mass in the entire city), shutting down shrines under construction after tragedy had previously struck the community…these people don’t want me in the church, and if they do, they have a funny way of showing it.
  • Cantus67Cantus67
    Posts: 209
    The Devil loves arguments about schism.
    The Devil loves arguments about creation vs. evolution.
    The Devil loves arguments about the menutiae of chant.
    The Devil loves arguments about any imperfections.
    The Devil loves arguments about liturgy (he REALLY loves those).
    The Devil loves arguments about who is more traditional.
    The Devil loves arguments about Pope (or non Pope) Francis.
    The Devil loves arguments about everything and anything that scrapes away from charity and the salvation of souls.
    I have no control over liturgy.
    I have no control over history.
    I have no control over Rome.
    I have no control over actual schismatics.
    I have no control over who is or is not in schism.

    I have only control over me, and I will love Our Lord today.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,917
    On a lighter note:
    I just could not resist chanting this one

    boy what a sad bunch we are trying to be conjoined twins.
    devil.mp3
    3M