Responsa ad Dubia concerning Traditionis Custodes
  • Suffice to say that I no longer feel welcome on this forum if the orthodoxy of my faith will be called into question because I support the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen toddevoss
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,960
    Schonbergian, I have nothing against the Ordinary Form, either. I just think it could be done much better than is often the case in too many parishes. Don't worry too much about what someone else thinks. I don't.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,749
    My former Parish priest has written this,
    https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2021/12/what-is-behind-papal-strangulation-of.html
    N.B. This priest has spent his entire priestly life as a diocesan priest, his comments about the N.O. are held by many priests in my diocese. Remember he is a N.O. priest, and has ministered through the N.O. era. When he soon retires I suspect he will never say the N.O. again.

    @Schönbergian The Catholic schools in England have over a 90% lapsation rate... I grew up in an N.O. parish with N.O. Latin Mass, all male servers, chant and polyphonic choirs... But my former parish is dying, I left when the N.O. Latin Mass was stopped. The last all male serving team lapsed or went to the TLM parish... The vast majority of my fellow school mates have left the Faith... Our seminary has closed because we have no vocations! and our seminary was not just our diocese but at least 3 others... We have been closing churches, and our congregations are ageing... Our bishops confirm our young people and they are never seen in churches from that day onward... We will be closing between 1/3 and 2/3rd of our parishes... As Benedict said we will be a much smaller church.

    Yes, lots of good Faithful people attend the N.O. Mass, sadly surveys tell us they are a minority. The disasters of the last few years show us we have a problem. If we are not producing fruit we are on the wrong path. Are we the barren fig tree? Are we the dead branches? Are we the seed that has been trampled? Are we the seed that is being choked by the weeds? We know what happened to the fig tree, we know what happened to the dead branches, we know what happened to the seed.
    Thanked by 1mmeladirectress
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,017
    "....if the orthodoxy of my faith will be called into question because I support the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite."

    Just to underscore the gobsmackingly obvious: No one here has any jurisdiction or authority to make such questioning anything other than their private opinion. Please don't give private opinions of others power over your continued presence here. A blessed Christmas to you and yours.
  • I wish to offer a public clarification.

    It is not I who call into question the rightness of Schoenbergian's good heartedness nor the devotion with which he clings to the Catholic faith. Because I conveyed that, I am sorry. I did not mean to convey this and, to the extent I conveyed it, I retract that statement. Schoenbergian (and others as relevant), please accept my apology.

    What I meant to convey is this: the Catholic faith, as presented in the Ordo of Paul VI, is objectively - and intentionally - weaker that the presentation of the Catholic faith in other duly recognized rites. That weakness is magnified by those who, external to the rite in themselves, insist that things are different now and that to hold on to the "old", "rigid" ways is wrong-headed. There have been diverse rites in the Church for hundreds of years, each expressing the Catholic faith. The rite codified in the reforms after Trent is one of those rites. Attempts to suppress the older form(s), especially when those attempts are reminiscent of thugs, don't strengthen the case that the newer form presents the same faith in as strong a form.


    "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us".

    Merry Christmas, everyone.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,226
    No explanation of how that was possible was ever satisfactory...


    To you. It worked for tens of thousands of others.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,226
    if the orthodoxy of my faith will be called into question because I support the Ordinary Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite.


    Fixed it for ya.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,424
    It is quite without doubt that all the Popes since VII have held that the Missale Romanum as revised by the Consilium is precisely that - the current form of the Missal of the Roman Rite. As stated in the 1969 Apostolic Constitution
    In this revision of the Roman Missal,
    In conclusion, we wish to give the force of law to all that we have set forth concerning the new Roman Missal. In promulgating the official edition of the Roman Missal, Our predecessor, St. Pius V, presented it as an instrument of liturgical unity and as a witness to the purity of the worship the Church. While leaving room in the new Missal, according to the order of the Second Vatican Council, "for legitimate variations and adaptations,"(15) we hope nevertheless that the Missal will be received by the faithful as an instrument which bears witness to and which affirms the common unity of all. Thus, in the great diversity of languages, one unique prayer will rise as an acceptable offering to our Father in heaven, through our High-Priest Jesus Christ, in the Holy Spirit.

    As to a multiplicity of Missals, with variations in some of the prayers, and in the lections and propers, surely that is precisely what Quo Primum approved, why should things be different 400 years later? If there have been errors on the part of these popes, they have all been motivated by (varying degrees of) generosity in desire to heal divisions arising from the decrees of VII, which match the divisions which arose after VI.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,187
    For decades, trads have been crying that there were two rites, two theologies, two faiths.

    There is a big difference between "two rites" or "two theologies", on one hand, and "two faiths", on the other. It would be a mistake to think that all or even most traditionalist Catholics would seriously say that the old and new forms of the liturgy represent "two faiths"; and still less that the people who attend one or the other hold "two faiths" -- implying that one "faith" is that of the Catholic Church and the other is not.

    There are people who hold such opinions, but if they think that the Catholic Church has instituted rituals of another faith and has, in effect, undone herself, they have lost sight of the indefectibility of the Church.
  • It seems I owe an explanation of my remarks.

    I am not accusing people who attend the novus ordo as having a different faith. I have stated many times here that I am an organist in a novus ordo parish.

    What I was stating is that, it at least seems that there are two faiths prima facia, as a natural outgrowth of the fact that the two rites are so radically different (ergo my belief that the latter is not a "revision" of the former, but rather something radically different), and in light of 'lex orandi...' that there appears to be a totally different sacramental theology that flows from the aforementioned new rite, which therefor gives the impression of a different faith. (And to be honest, I do wonder at times.)

    This is an institutional problem, and less-so a personal one, which is to say: the church herself is giving the impression of a new or altered faith. (And bolder, modernist theologians do indeed make this claim, so I can't be too crazy for positing it as a possible theory.)

    I'm not accusing anyone who attends the novus ordo of heresy, or not being a true believer or a true catholic. I'm just observing that the old ways and the new ways seem so radically different, that one has to wonder whether or not the novus ordo culture, writ large, has strayed too far.

    Also, it's difficult to admit, as was done just above this comment, that you can accept that there might be "two theologies" but then not conclude that there are therefore two faiths. Seems an odd contradiction in terms, no? It's one thing for theologies to develop; it's another entirely to have a new theology that contradicts the old. (Death penalty, aynone?) If it's the latter case, one can prove empirically that the latter is actually wrong, and to be rejected in favor of the older theology.

    Also, it's quite odd to insist for decades that the new and old rites are the same, when the material, externals, and fruits of the new rite are radically different from those of the old. But then, we have a pope who says—formally, mind you—that one is the new normal ("ordinary") and the other is extraordinary but they are two halves of the same coin. Ok fine. He also famously observed that
    "What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful."
    It would seem these words were utterly prophetic, and no doubt they ring in the halls of Rome right now, much to the chagrin of the present pontificate.

    Fast forward to today and we are suddenly told that holding to what our ancestors always held is indeed harmful. Supposedly, very harmful. So much so that it needs to be totally suppressed, post haste. No more old rites, no more old Mass.

    Nopety, nope, nope! That's a load of bull, and we all know it. BXVI himself formally told us so. One may choose to abrogate his prior legislation, but one cannot abrogate his observation that is as true as the sky is blue. I refuse to believe that attending the mass that nourished saints for centuries is somehow bad for the church, my soul, or for anyone else. I don't buy it. It is a lie.

    It.
    Is.
    A.
    Lie.

    Just because it is said—even from Rome—does not make it true, just, or good. It does not make it so.
    "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."
    Can anyone honestly look me in the eyes and say that what we are being told now is not somehow an inversion of what was always taught?

    The ultra-montanists on the forum need to reevaluate just what, exactly, a pope can and cannot do, and just how many times they are willing jump like dogs before they step back and say, "whoa. wait a minute!" Don't get me wrong: I have great respect for the Petrine office and authority, but he has no more right to abrogate millennia of tradition than to tell me to 'jump off that cliff for Jesus'.

    All the bishops of the world were told in the accompanying letter to SP point blank in the quote I referenced above, that the ancient things are sacred and cannot be suddenly deemed the contrary. So, to be told otherwise now, a complete 180º from the previous teaching, is a lie. An error at the very least. The problem is the men of Rome are highly educated and well-aware of what was taught and said previously, so in this case they do not get the benefit of the doubt from me. Sorry Charlie; not today. I'm no idiot. I hope you aren't either.
  • I think it is this seeming contradiction which most frustrates me, too. How can things have been very important to do in one way, and then suddenly it be very important NOT to do them that way?

    How is it normal and symbolic and appropriate for us to dress a certain way for religious reasons one day, and then the next that very way of dressing is considered traitorous, stupid, and is even forbidden (whether that be the cassock, a religious habit, or formal or modest dress for laity at Mass)? Things always mean something. Nothing humans do is meaningless, even if we pretend so. The way of dressing always carries enormous meaning, in every culture. And so a priest who only wears lay clothing might say (as some do) that it is to emphasize their closeness to the common people and to prevent a sense that being a priest is something better than or far away from laity. And then what - first they forbid cassocks, now they allow them for formal occasions, in another place they are obligatory... something that was simply an indicator of a vocation now becomes a political statement, so that a priest can be ranked according to his 'traditional' tendencies based on whether he is in jeans, in a clerical dress shirt, or in a cassock. So there is a disunity! This is a small example, but interesting.

    Or, to take another common example, why kneel to receive Communion? It is normal (assuming one is physically capable), in more traditional parishes. It is nearly forbidden in many 'forward thinking' parishes, or at least made as difficult as possible for anyone who is not spry and gymnastic. The preference at most non-traditional parishes worldwide that I have gone to is to receive standing in the hand. Why? This means something. My understanding is it is a way of showing that one is not lesser than the priest, nor low before God. Like a person who has the confidence to walk up to God and reach for Him, as opposed to someone who makes themselves small and waits for God's approach. Fine. But clearly two different understandings of the relation of God and man. My understanding from very 'doused in Vatican 2' priests of the generation who were in seminary during that era is that this is a great thing, along with many other changes. The old theology has been thrown out, thank God, and we are now a new Church.

    Not to even touch the 'there is no hell and no sin any more' types, whom I have met in person.

    But I do trust God will make great things come out of these messy and weird times, and meanwhile I will keep showing up and participating, even when it seems confusing.

    Probably nothing makes the devil madder than a confused Catholic sticking to the Church no matter what. Every time I go to Mass, the devil gets another kick in the pants. The bishops can sort out their own mess.
  • What I was stating is that, it at least seems that there are two faiths prima facia, as a natural outgrowth of the fact that the two rites are so radically different (ergo my belief that the latter is not a "revision" of the former, but rather something radically different), and in light of 'lex orandi...' that there appears to be a totally different sacramental theology that flows from the aforementioned new rite, which therefor gives the impression of a different faith. (And to be honest, I do wonder at times.)


    I want to break this down. Basically:
    that there are two faiths prima facia, as a natural outgrowth of the fact that the two rites are so radically different


    I don't think this follows. The Eastern rites are radically different from the Novus Ordo, yet no one claims any kind of linkage between difference in liturgy and difference of faith.

    and in light of 'lex orandi...' that there appears to be a totally different sacramental theology that flows from the aforementioned new rite, which therefor gives the impression of a different faith.


    Do the differences in liturgy between the Roman and Eastern rites equate to a difference in sacramental theology? Perhaps they do in some very technical sense, but whatever differences exist aren't nearly sufficient to harm the unity of the Church.

    This is an institutional problem, and less-so a personal one, which is to say: the church herself is giving the impression of a new or altered faith. (And bolder, modernist theologians do indeed make this claim, so I can't be too crazy for positing it as a possible theory.)


    One of the great ironies of post-Vatican II Catholicism is that the far right and the far left are in agreement about what happened at Vatican II (some kind of discontinuity and rupture with the past), and only differ in their value judgement about whether or not this was good or bad. Meanwhile, mainstream opinion does not agree with this take, and importantly, every Pope since Vatican II has rejected this notion. Pope Benedict XVI authoritatively rejected the hermeneutic of discontinuity and rupture. I hope this isn't too on the nose to say, but reading this it sounds to me like you are in agreement with these bolder modernist theologians and in disagreement with Pope Benedict XVI.

    I'm not accusing anyone who attends the novus ordo of heresy, or not being a true believer or a true catholic. I'm just observing that the old ways and the new ways seem so radically different, that one has to wonder whether or not the novus ordo culture, writ large, has strayed too far.


    Thank you for sharing this, I'll add that I likewise do not intend to accuse those who attend the TLM of any of these things.

    I absolutely think that Novus Ordo culture has strayed too far, especially if you mean what is commonly referred to as the "Spirit of Vatican II." I just don't think that the actual formally promulgated liturgy has anything to do with the problem. I think that there is a culture problem in the places that haven't figured out how to shake the "Spirit of Vatican II" culture, and I think that the energy of the people posting here would be best spent determining a way to transform this culture rather than in determining a way to avoid this culture by creating in-group TLM safe spaces.
    Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins
  • Also, it's quite odd to insist for decades that the new and old rites are the same, when the material, externals, and fruits of the new rite are radically different from those of the old. But then, we have a pope who says—formally, mind you—that one is the new normal ("ordinary") and the other is extraordinary but they are two halves of the same coin. Ok fine. He also famously observed that
    "What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful."

    It would seem these words were utterly prophetic, and no doubt they ring in the halls of Rome right now, much to the chagrin of the present pontificate.

    Fast forward to today and we are suddenly told that holding to what our ancestors always held is indeed harmful. Supposedly, very harmful. So much so that it needs to be totally suppressed, post haste. No more old rites, no more old Mass


    So first, I don't think that the Novus Ordo is the same as the TLM. I think that the Novus Ordo is a revised edition of the Roman Missal, and that the revisions are noticeable. The Novus Ordo differs in noticeable ways from what came before because Sacrosanctum Concilium called for some significant improvements, including:
    14. Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that fully conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy. Such participation by the Christian people as "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a redeemed people (1 Pet. 2:9; cf. 2:4-5), is their right and duty by reason of their baptism.

    In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy, this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else; for it is the primary and indispensable source from which the faithful are to derive the true Christian spirit; and therefore pastors of souls must zealously strive to achieve it, by means of the necessary instruction, in all their pastoral work.

    21. In order that the Christian people may more certainly derive an abundance of graces from the sacred liturgy, holy Mother Church desires to undertake with great care a general restoration of the liturgy itself. For the liturgy is made up of immutable elements divinely instituted, and of elements subject to change. These not only may but ought to be changed with the passage of time if they have suffered from the intrusion of anything out of harmony with the inner nature of the liturgy or have become unsuited to it.

    In this restoration, both texts and rites should be drawn up so that they express more clearly the holy things which they signify; the Christian people, so far as possible, should be enabled to understand them with ease and to take part in them fully, actively, and as befits a community.

    24. Sacred scripture is of the greatest importance in the celebration of the liturgy. For it is from scripture that lessons are read and explained in the homily, and psalms are sung; the prayers, collects, and liturgical songs are scriptural in their inspiration and their force, and it is from the scriptures that actions and signs derive their meaning. Thus to achieve the restoration, progress, and adaptation of the sacred liturgy, it is essential to promote that warm and living love for scripture to which the venerable tradition of both eastern and western rites gives testimony.

    30. To promote active participation, the people should be encouraged to take part by means of acclamations, responses, psalmody, antiphons, and songs, as well as by actions, gestures, and bodily attitudes. And at the proper times all should observe a reverent silence.

    50. The rite of the Mass is to be revised in such a way that the intrinsic nature and purpose of its several parts, as also the connection between them, may be more clearly manifested, and that devout and active participation by the faithful may be more easily achieved.

    For this purpose the rites are to be simplified, due care being taken to preserve their substance; elements which, with the passage of time, came to be duplicated, or were added with but little advantage, are now to be discarded; other elements which have suffered injury through accidents of history are now to be restored to the vigor which they had in the days of the holy Fathers, as may seem useful or necessary.

    51. The treasures of the bible are to be opened up more lavishly, so that richer fare may be provided for the faithful at the table of God's word. In this way a more representative portion of the holy scriptures will be read to the people in the course of a prescribed number of years.

    52. By means of the homily the mysteries of the faith and the guiding principles of the Christian life are expounded from the sacred text, during the course of the liturgical year; the homily, therefore, is to be highly esteemed as part of the liturgy itself; in fact, at those Masses which are celebrated with the assistance of the people on Sundays and feasts of obligation, it should not be omitted except for a serious reason.

    53. Especially on Sundays and feasts of obligation there is to be restored, after the Gospel and the homily, "the common prayer" or "the prayer of the faithful." By this prayer, in which the people are to take part, intercession will be made for holy Church, for the civil authorities, for those oppressed by various needs, for all mankind, and for the salvation of the entire world [39].

    54. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and "the common prayer," but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to the norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.

    Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

    And wherever a more extended use of the mother tongue within the Mass appears desirable, the regulation laid down in Art. 40 of this Constitution is to be observed.


    It's clear that the fathers of the Second Vatican Council had a number of ways in mind that they wanted to see the Roman Rite improved.

    Taking something good and improving it is different than saying that what we had before was bad. No orthodox Catholic could say that any legitimately approved liturgy of the Church is bad.

    It also seems clear to me, especially with what Pope Francis has most recently written, that it is important to the Church that Catholics be able to celebrate the liturgy with the improvements that were called for in Sacrosanctum Concilium.
    Thanked by 2MarkB a_f_hawkins
  • In terms of
    "What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful."

    It is a theological novelty to suggest that people retain the right to a Mass in an older edition of the Roman Missal. I don't think anyone claims that there is a right to the Missal of 1570, 1604, 1634, 1884, 1920, or 1955. We don't celebrate these Missals anymore, and it's not because we don't think they are sacred, or would be harmful for people to experience. It's because Rome promulgated revised editions of the Roman Missal, and the tradition of the Catholic Church is that everyone celebrates according to the latest edition of the Missal. Yet, people are claiming that there exists a right to the Missal of 1962. I don't think this makes any sense.

    Nevertheless, if the Church wants to go a new direction and create a right to the Missal of 1962, I don't have a problem with this. Generally speaking I think people should be able to seek out their liturgical preferences. But, it's a real problem if permission to use the Missal of 1962 ends up creating organized opposition to the authority of Vatican II and the authority of the Pope.

    One may choose to abrogate his prior legislation, but one cannot abrogate his observation that is as true as the sky is blue. I refuse to believe that attending the mass that nourished saints for centuries is somehow bad for the church, my soul, or for anyone else. I don't buy it. It is a lie.


    I don't think that Mass according to the 1962 Missal is bad for your soul.

    I similarly don't think that a mass according to the 1570 Missal would be bad for your soul.

    But, proliferation of Roman Missals can be bad for the church for other reasons. Pope Pius V said in Quo Primum:
    It is most becoming that there be in the Church... only one rite for the celebration of Mass


    Now, despite this, Quo Primum allowed for the continuation of rites such as the Ambrosian and Mozarabic, so this isn't some kind of ironclad absolute principle. And to reiterate, I have no problem with there being access to the 1962 Missal for people who prefer it. That being said, one could certainly reasonably argue, and it seems that Pope Francis is making such an argument, that it is bad for the Church to be liturgically divided and it is best that there be one form of the Roman Rite.
    Thanked by 1Don9of11
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    In terms of
    "What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful."

    It is a theological novelty to suggest that people retain the right to a Mass in an older edition of the Roman Missal.

    “This liturgy, which Pope John Paul II has kindly granted to all those who are attached to it, is an integral part of ‘the richness that the diversity of charisms and traditions of spirituality and apostolate represents for the Church.’”

    “I therefore hope that this new edition will meet the expectations of these faithful and help them to participate actively in the celebration of Holy Mass. In this way it will contribute in its own way to the liturgical renewal called for by the Second Vatican Council and will highlight ‘the beauty of unity in variety.’”

    - Cdl Ratzinger, 1962 missal preface
    Thanked by 2tomjaw ServiamScores
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 545
    "What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful."


    In neither TC nor in the Responsa do the Holy Father or +Roche say that the TLM is per se harmful. Rome’s concern seems to be with perceived division, disunity, and disobedience which have sprung up since SP and the creation of boutique parishes/communities devoted to the old rite. At least, according to his own words, +Francis’s problem seems to be with the current situation, not with the actual text of the 1962 Missal.

    So I don’t think it’s a 180° from SP. A liturgical change was made by +Benedict for pastoral reasons based on the situation with the SSPX and the desire of the faithful for the old liturgy; his successor judged that the situation had morphed such that there was a loss of concord and trend toward schism in certain quarters, and so he issued new norms. The text of the ‘62 has remained the same. The situation is the issue, not the text, in the same way that I happily give my toddler crayons and markers, but redirect her attention towards the paper and even take them away if she starts to use them to write “Papa is the antichrist and a Freemason” on the walls.
  • “This liturgy, which Pope John Paul II has kindly granted to all those who are attached to it, is an integral part of ‘the richness that the diversity of charisms and traditions of spirituality and apostolate represents for the Church.’”

    “I therefore hope that this new edition will meet the expectations of these faithful and help them to participate actively in the celebration of Holy Mass. In this way it will contribute in its own way to the liturgical renewal called for by the Second Vatican Council and will highlight ‘the beauty of unity in variety.’”

    - Cdl Ratzinger, 1962 preface


    By theological novelty, I mean that no one in the history of the Church prior to Vatican II thought that one could celebrate Mass according to older versions of the Roman Missal, or that groups of people could have a charism of celebrating Mass according to an old Roman Missal. Hence, the irony is that the viewpoint Cardinal Ratzinger is sharing here is a novel post-Vatican II theology. That doesn't mean it's wrong, but that does mean that this viewpoint can not honestly label itself as traditional.
  • Don't get me wrong: I have great respect for the Petrine office and authority, but he has no more right to abrogate millennia of tradition than to tell me to 'jump off that cliff for Jesus'.


    ServiamScores, I'm curious what you mean by this. I'm curious because this contradicts what I understand about papal and council authority.

    Do mean mean to say that Vatican II lacked the authority to convene a liturgical commission to revise the liturgy according to the principles stated in Sacrosanctum Concilium?

    Do you mean to dissent from the claim in SC that:
    the liturgy is made up of immutable elements divinely instituted, and of elements subject to change.


    Do you believe that there are non-divinely instituted elements of the liturgy that the Church lacks the authority to change?

    Or do you mean something else?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,749
    It is quite simple, Papal authority has limits... as described in Vatican I. I suppose that as so few people have read the verbiage of Vat II, but spout endlessly about the 'spirit', they are even less likely to have read Vatican I.

    Vatican II does have a right to set up a commission, but the product of that commission is just a product. Was the product expected or did it go beyond what was called for?

    Which parts are Divinely inspired? The Roman Canon? and which parts are subject to change? I note you do not say...

    The changes have definitely gone beyond what was called for. The changes have not been made in good faith and we have the autobiographies of those involved that prove this. What exactly is holy about a prayer made up in a cafe, over a glass or two of wine?

    Also we are told "by their fruits we will know them", so why is our seminary closing? why is our Church dying? This springtime of Vatican II looks like a nuclear winter.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 977
    There are plenty of divisions in the church and they came before SP. The TLM didn't cause them. The fact that Francis is ignoring it and going after trads says a lot about whether he really cares about the division.
    Thanked by 2KARU27 tomjaw
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,048
    Is this like when Coca-Cola introduced "New Coke" in the 1980s but after the backlash they re-released "Coca Cola Classic" (the original formula and taste)?

    But whereas two Coke varieties can exist simultaneously as consumer items, I question whether it makes sense for the Roman Church simultaneously to maintain two authorized forms of the Roman Rite, one unreformed and the other reformed; one prior to Vatican II's mandate that the liturgy be reformed and the other subsequent to the Council. (Not to be confused with usages of the reformed Roman Rite, i.e., the Ordinariate, that have received proper apostolic approval.)

    The Church's liturgy is public and official and a source of unity in prayer. Liturgy is not a consumer item.

    The Council mandated reform of the preconciliar liturgy.

    Isn't continuing to celebrate and preferring the preconciliar liturgy ipso facto unavoidably a rejection of one of the most important decisions of the Council -- the Church -- and, hence, necessarily a rejection of that Council and the Church's authority?

    How can you reject one of the most important decisions of the Council yet claim to accept the Council?

    I anticipate that some will counter, as they have, that the Novus Ordo exceeded the Council's mandate. Popes Paul VI, JPII, BXVI, and Francis all disagree. Not a single one of them questioned the legitimacy of the Novus Ordo. Even in Summorum Pontificum, BXVI stated that the Novus Ordo is the normal liturgical form for the Church. The Novus Ordo has been established as fulfilling the Council's mandate. The reformed liturgy could have been different than it is, but it is what it is and Church authority has confirmed the reformed liturgy as the authorized, official and normative postconciliar liturgy.

    So if the Council mandated liturgical reform, if Church authority promulgated and has for decades confirmed the Novus Ordo as fulfilling that mandate, how is preferring the unreformed liturgy and continuing to celebrate the unreformed liturgy not a rejection of the Council and of Church authority?

    Granted, current concessions permit the celebration of the preconciliar liturgy, so its use is not a violation of Church law so long as proper permission from the bishop has been obtained. But even given such permission as a concession to celebrate the unreformed liturgy, isn't the very act of celebrating it expressing a spirit of rejection of Vatican II and of the postconciliar Church?
    Thanked by 1Don9of11
  • The use of the 1967 Missal would rectify much of the concern of MarkB and those like him, yet there seems to be no real appetite for it. There are even some that push for the 1955 Missal instead. Furthermore, the seemingly perpetual use of the 1962 Missal without plans for its reform would never have been tenable; yet how many EF die-hards would be open to a revision by the 2021 Church?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,725
    It is quite simple, Papal authority has limits... as described in Vatican I. I suppose that as so few people have read the verbiage of Vat II, but spout endlessly about the 'spirit', they are even less likely to have read Vatican I.

    Vatican II does have a right to set up a commission, but the product of that commission is just a product. Was the product expected or did it go beyond what was called for?

    Which parts are Divinely inspired? The Roman Canon? and which parts are subject to change? I note you do not say...

    The changes have definitely gone beyond what was called for. The changes have not been made in good faith and we have the autobiographies of those involved that prove this. What exactly is holy about a prayer made up in a cafe, over a glass or two of wine?

    Also we are told "by their fruits we will know them", so why is our seminary closing? why is our Church dying? This springtime of Vatican II looks like a nuclear winter.


    Again, you can banter back and forth ad nauseum... but THIS (as expressed above) is the bottom line of it all.

    It is tragic that most children who grow up in the VII rite do not maintain the faith.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,017
    There's confusion of ecumenical councils and popes with separation of powers in the constitutional frameworks of Anglospheric nations and those inspired by them. "Vatican II" is not properly understood as "[having] a right to set up a commission" - rather, it was an ecumenical council of the bishops of the world in communion with and under the headship of the pope - and the products of the postconciliar commissions was not limited by Vatican II in Second Millennium Catholicism. If you want to unwind that, you'd need to go back to First Millennium Catholicism and have a different development therefrom.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    @MarkB : But whereas two Coke varieties can exist simultaneously as consumer items, I question whether it makes sense for the Roman Church simultaneously to maintain two authorized forms of the Roman Rite...(etc, etc)
    ...Liturgy is not a consumer item.

    You don't think it's problematic for even a single rite to have so many "options" available as to have the possibility of Masses said at the same church, an hour apart, and they hardly resemble one another at all?

    What about so many valid options in that same rite, and yet their Ordinaries outright banning some of those options at certain times, for the sake of "unity?"

    However, Latin Rite Catholics in Chicago will unite in celebrating the liturgy “exclusively” according to the Novus ordo Missae on specific days during the liturgical year: the first Sunday of every month, Christmas, the Triduum, Easter Sunday, and Pentecost Sunday. The policy indicates that this liturgy, which may be celebrated in Latin, must be celebrated with the priest facing the people.

    The intention for this policy is:

    to foster and make manifest the unity of this local Church, as well as to provide all Catholics in the Archdiocese an opportunity to offer a concrete manifestation of the acceptance of the teaching of the Second Vatican Council and its liturgical books.”
    Thanked by 2tomjaw sdtalley3
  • this (important!) conversation is moving so fast that it's hard to say anything quickly enough to make a point before the current carries us on to something else

    >> One of the great ironies of post-Vatican II Catholicism is that the far right and the far left are in agreement about what happened at Vatican II (some kind of discontinuity and rupture with the past), and only differ in their value judgement about whether or not this was good or bad. Meanwhile, mainstream opinion does not agree with this take
    Recent studies show that mainstream [Catholic] opinion denies the Real Presence, just for one thing. Mainstream opinion doesn’t seem very sturdy as argument support.

    Joseph Goebbels said, “Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth”. So if the people are told often enough that the mass that nourished saints for centuries is somehow bad for the church, my soul, or for anyone else , then is it surprising that the mainstream opinion eventually accepts that lie as truth?

    >>“that there are two faiths prima facia, as a natural outgrowth of the fact that the two rites are so radically different”
    I don't think this follows. The Eastern rites are radically different from the Novus Ordo, yet no one claims any kind of linkage between difference in liturgy and difference of faith.

    Consider that the Tridentine Mass and the Eastern rites developed organically over centuries, whereas the novus ordo missae was cobbled together by a task group, for the stated purpose of removing anything [from the Mass] that could be a stumbling block to our separated brethren.

    At any rate, with change / dilution / removal of clear statements of Catholic teaching throughout the Mass and its celebration, wasn’t it the faithful who were given the stumbling blocks? And now they no longer know their faith*, no longer believe in the Real Presence, and so on. Can it be surprising?

    (*) as reported by one in a nearby parish who was assigned to prepare a large group of young people for Confirmation. The kids had no idea of the Holy Trinity, of sanctifying and actual grace, and more.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw KARU27
  • Mark, I would say that how the OF is sometimes celebrated exceeds Vatican II.

    I understand why Cardinal Cupich would institute certain days when the EF cannot be celebrated, but I do find it odd that he says it must be celebrated verses populum.

    Would someone be able to explain more about the 1967. What makes it different from the EF and different from the OF?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • What I meant to convey is this: the Catholic faith, as presented in the Ordo of Paul VI, is objectively - and intentionally - weaker that the presentation of the Catholic faith in other duly recognized rites.

    I'm sure that the one in the link below (which was held in a diocesan church in October of this year) would not be acceptable to many people on this forum;
    but the question remains, perhaps for a different thread, how does one defend it to another Catholic (or even non Catholic) as acceptable?

    https://youtu.be/cUUKAADyt5M
    Thanked by 1KARU27
  • I understand why Cardinal Cupich would institute certain days when the EF cannot be celebrated, but I do find it odd that he says it must be celebrated verses populum.


    The first Sunday of the month seems an arbitrary marker, but I may be quite wrong. I used to think that First Fridays and First Saturdays were arbitrary markers, too, but I've learned better.

    As to the others, Christmas and Pentecost have their own proper vigils (distinct from the anticipated Mass of the following day).

    Versus Populum celebrations are, at least in mandates such as this one, the requirement to draw ourselves away from God: every time you're demonstrating communion with the local ordinary, you abandon the crucifix, the tabernacle and the altar.

    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,749
    @Chris Garton-Zavesky
    It will be very amusing to see the Mass count, and collection for the days when they have N.O. Mass. I would go to the SSPX on those days, although listening to priests I suspect they will ignore this for as long as possible and then if forced resign.

    I suspect all these threats and abuse from the Vatican will back fire... it could be really spectacular.
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,048
    If there are large numbers of people who behave the way the above post suggests, then I think Archbishop Cupich ought to consider that to be de facto expression that attachment to the 1962 Missal is indeed for many a proxy for resistance to the liturgical reforms of Vatican II and resistance to liturgical unity with the postconciliar Church. With sufficient evidence that the groups attached to the 1962 Missal are boycotting the mandated Novus Ordo Masses on the first Sundays of the month, the archbishop might conclude that pastoral attempts to bring the TLM groups into eventual unity in celebrating according to the reformed liturgical books will not succeed, and he might then decide that no more authorized Masses using the 1962 Missal will be permitted at all.
  • KARU27
    Posts: 184
    "What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful."


    In neither TC nor in the Responsa do the Holy Father or +Roche say that the TLM is per se harmful. Rome’s concern seems to be with perceived division, disunity, and disobedience which have sprung up since SP and the creation of boutique parishes/communities devoted to the old rite. At least, according to his own words, +Francis’s problem seems to be with the current situation, not with the actual text of the 1962 Missal.


    It was in the late 1960s / early 1970s that the TLM (and its customs) was seen as forbidden, or even harmful (as in the infamous example of the Canadians who were arrested for kneeling to receive communion). Why else would such drastic reforms have been instituted and promoted?

    It is in hindsight, after 50 years of the New Mass, that even the Vatican cannot pretend how wonderful it has been. They could have that pretense, say in 1972, but now we all know better. We can all see the weirdness on YouTube. Now the hierarchy has to pretend that they thought that the TLM was sacred and great for the past 50 years, because there are too many embarrassing questions about the liturgies of the past 50 years, so they can't pass off the New Mass as the high point of Catholic liturgical history.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,749
    @MarkB
    I find it amusing that the deformed reformed Mass that you claim is the Will of the Church, and is the so called unique expression of the 'church' has to be mandated to get people to go to it. This is going to work so well...

    A Church that allows the vilest public sinners who reject the truths of the Church, and still receive Communion, is going to excommunicate Dr. K and Fr. Z. for not attending their mandated monthly N.O. Mass? Really?

    It took decades, crippling fines and the use of a murderous fascist state apparatus, for Elizabeth the worst first to stamp out the Sarum Use and Roman Rite in England. I can't see Francis achieving this, too many people are resisting.
    Thanked by 2KARU27 ServiamScores
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,424
    Nathan - "Interim Missal" : There were two stages 1965 (Inter Oecumenici) and 1967 (Tres abhinc annos.
    1965 established (1) that the Mass of the Catechumens was to engage with the congregation, and (2) that the celebrant was not to say silently those things which were spoken aloud by others. (3)There should preferably be a homily (obligatory on Sundays), teaching about something said in that Mass. (4)The Universal prayer (prayer of the faithful) could be introduced by the Bishops Conference.
    Thus the readings were not at the altar ad orientem , they were proclaimed to the congregation, and when by lector or deacon, the celebrant should sit and listen. Readings and orations could be in the vernacular, and must be audible (including the Secret). Psalm 42 was no longer said at the foot of the altar.
    The Missal containing these changes was published and Decreed typical January 27th 1965.
    1967 addressed the Canon - spoken aloud, permitted in the vernacular. Multiple signs of the cross were each reduced to one. Genuflections reduced. Collect and other orations reduced to one of each. Everything could be in the vernacular.
    It may be of legal significance that there was no formal decree publishing these changes as typical.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,048
    There are only a very small number of recalcitrants. They do not get to make the Church bend to their will, and they do not get to resist the postconciliar Church's reception and implementation of liturgical reform indefinitely. If they break communion with the Church after reasonable pastoral efforts have been made to accommodate them and to bring them into union with the liturgy of the postconciliar Church, then so be it.

    Not all who are attached to the TLM will leave the fold. Some will.
    Thanked by 1Don9of11
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,749
    There are only a very small number of recalcitrants. They do not get to make the Church bend to their will,

    Yes, there are only a few people in each parish that reject Latin... and of course they have no power to reject the teachings of Vatican II and bend the church to their will.

    N.B. Our Seminary is still closed and we have no vocations...Although an ex-Altar server will be ordained next year by the SSPX. Several of our Congregation are now priests in the Traditional orders, and one is a diocesan priest.
    Thanked by 1KARU27
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Nevermind.






  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,960
    I would say your biggest problems if the 1962 missal is suppressed would be buildings and priests. I'm an easterner so being on the outs with Rome is easily survivable. We have had periods of both.

    While your congregations could buy or lease buildings, finding actual church buildings built for the TLM might be difficult. Where would you get priests? Most diocesan priests are invested in pension and health plans and can't afford to leave.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,424
    The consequence of the 1965 decree, was that from the First Sunday of Lent, March 7 1965, use of the 1962 Missal was illicit until the CDW indult Quattuor abhinc annos of 1984. The "Agatha Christi" indult was explicitly for the 1965 Missal as modified by the 1967 Instruction, whether there were any previous indults for 1962 I doubt.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Nevermind.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,749
    @CharlesW Buildings are easy in Europe, we have too many empty churches with no congregations. While some can just be demolished, the listed ones can't and so they need to find other uses!

    Priests should also be no problem, we have plenty of retired priests, that no longer say the N.O. Mass.
  • PeterJ
    Posts: 90
    I fail to see how an advocate of the NO could have a conceptual problem with allowing the NO and TLM to run alongside each other, as Benedict XVI envisaged.

    A part of the NO’s ethos is in-built flexibility and optionality.

    A sung Latin NO Mass at, say, the Brompton Oratory, feels somewhat similar to a sung TLM. A (correctly celebrated) versus populum English guitar Mass at my local parish (with, say, Eucharistic Prayer II) feels very different - an uninformed observer might very well think it to be the liturgy of a different religion. The two NO Masses might come from the same book, and both be labelled the same (“NO”), but in reality they are very different beasts in their outward ritual.

    I do not see how an advocate of the NO can coherently argue that the liturgical diversity that results from having the TLM around somehow threatens the integrity of the Roman Rite, but the liturgical diversity that flows from the two NO Masses I just described does not. That makes no sense.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Mark, you didn't respond to my post, though.

    If the liturgy is not a consumer item, then why is the NO customizable to the person looking through its menu of options, only 'buying" and making use of the parts they like?
    At what point is it ok for individual prelates to say, "well, sure, these items are on the menu, but... you can't choose it on certain days of the month" and "sure, that's technically only optional, but I'm going to insist that you use only this option, as often as I like"?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    btw, for those asking about popes...image
    541 x 960 - 38K
  • PeterJ
    Posts: 90
    Indeed, I don’t see the problem of allowing the TLM to run alongside the NO from an historical perspective either.

    My understanding is that, as far as we can see from the extant historical record, we have always had liturgical diversity in the Western church. The integrity of the Western church was not undermined by having, for instance, the Gallican rite and the Roman rite (and the variations there on, eg Ambrosian) existing alongside each other. Looking beyond the Western church, presumably language differences did play a part in the West/East split, but putting that factor to one side, I do not think anyone would seriously suggest that the integrity of the church as a whole was undermined by the Eastern church having its own distinct liturgies, either.

    I take the practical point that things would be a mess if every time the Roman Order of Mass was revised, groups of people were allowed to keep using the previous version (beyond a reasonable transitional period).

    But the revisions that resulted in the NO were very significant. Both proponents and opponents of the revisions would agree on that.

    This was an exceptional occurrence in the church’s history - we have no record of such sweeping changes being made to the Roman Rite previously. It was an unprecedented event. One cannot therefore simply point to the precedent around how relatively minor revisions were previously dealt with (eg adding St Joseph to the Canon - not that that was seen as minor at the time) and say that there is necessarily some sort of precedent against keeping the older revision of the Missal (TLM) going.
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores tomjaw
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,048
    If the liturgy is not a consumer item, then why is the NO customizable to the person looking through its menu of options, only 'buying" and making use of the parts they like?
    At what point is it ok for individual prelates to say, "well, sure, these items are on the menu, but... you can't choose it on certain days of the month" and "sure, that's technically only optional, but I'm going to insist that you use only this option, as often as I like"?


    Fair question.

    I would respond that the priest should not approach the options in the N.O. as a matter of making use of the parts he likes, for the liturgy is not the priest's plaything. Rather, he should approach it as a matter of using options that will best form his parish in faith or that are most suitable for a particular occasion.

    For example, I believe that any priest who routinely omits Eucharistic Prayer 1 on Sundays is misusing the options.

    The N.O. requires a mature and wise liturgical and pastoral sense to be celebrated well.

    The flexibility of the N.O. can be used well; it can also be used irresponsibly.

    Unfortunately, poor liturgical formation in seminaries and inadequate or nonexistent formation of lay liturgical ministers has resulted in quite a lot of irresponsible implementation of N.O. options, dumbing it down to the most basic or shortest options.

    In sum, the options in the N.O. are not for a consumerist approach to liturgy, doing only what the priest likes; they provide flexibility so that the priest can effectively prepare liturgies that will serve his flock's spiritual good on different occasions.
    Thanked by 1Don9of11
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    They may not be for such, but that's exactly what they allow.

    So, why should one's local Ordinary be allowed to use its options as his own play thing, as is clearly what has happened in Chicago?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,017
    "No one anywhere has ever successfully ended a practice by persecuting it."

    Someone needs to have advised centuries of Catholic popes, prelates, clerics, religious and sovereigns who would have taken such advice as dangerous error at best. (That doesn't mean they were prudent, wise or right in that regard; it just means it's an interesting tack for self-described "traditionalists" to embrace and they should be prepared for raised eyebrows, as it were.)
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Nevermind.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,048
    So, why should one's local Ordinary be allowed to use its options as his own play thing, as is clearly what has happened in Chicago?


    That's not what Cardinal Cupich did at all today. He's implementing the liturgical legislation in Traditionis Custodes.

    I read his entire document. It strikes me as faithful to Traditionis Custodes, reasonably accommodating to groups genuinely attached to the TLM, and realistic in stating forthrightly that the way forward for Church unity in liturgy is only through the reformed, postconciliar rites; so TLM groups are being advised and prepared for the eventual total phase-out of the TLM at some point in the future.

    You might be referring specifically to the requirement that when TLM groups celebrate the mandated Novus Ordo Mass on the first Sunday of each month, they must do so with the priest assuming the versus populum stance, not the ad orientem stance, unless permission for ad orientem has been granted.

    I suspect that requirement's purpose is to ensure that the TLM groups accept versus populum as a legitimate option in the Novus Ordo since the TLM is only celebrated ad orientem. If TLM groups exclusively celebrated the Novus Ordo ad orientem, then ad orientem could become a proxy form of subtle resistance the way the TLM has become. Perhaps after being sufficiently assured of TLM groups' amenability to and acceptance of the Novus Ordo, the Cardinal will permit them to celebrate the Novus Ordo ad orientem as often as they wish. In short, I think it's a temporary disciplinary measure to ensure that acceptance of the Novus Ordo Mass includes acceptance of the legitimacy of a posture and stance that TLM groups might be resistant to accept.
    Thanked by 1Don9of11