It happened: Traditionis custodes (TLM crackdown) (Note: discussion is on hiatus.)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    the author of the article I linked to switched from that claim to talking about prayers instead of texts, and how that was a dishonest move.


    Pope Francis just declared and legislated to that effect in a manner that no one who wishes to remain in full communion with the Church can dispute.

    [Please try to avoid implying bad motives in others. --admin]
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Here is a capsulization of another perspective

    https://youtu.be/VUK0EtPvMQs

    If you think the two rites are the same then why is one being abolished? Listen to the blatantly honest truthful words of those who constructed the NO in this vid.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    This whole thing reminds me of the argument I keep getting with Catholics about abortion and other abominable things...
    Well, we have a social contract by living here, by being part of this, by being part of that, and you can't just legislate holiness...
    ...but in the same breath, at the same time, we can legislate discord and discontinuity, by claiming it "unifies" us?

    Mark, was Pope Benedict wrong, if Pope Francis is so unmistakably right?

    Well, at the very least, he was probably wrong to claim that the NO and TLM are "two forms of the same rite," rather than the fact that the NO was indeed a "new rite," and the TLM was never and should never be suppressed.
    Such a sad state of affairs.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    The Novus Ordo and the TLM are "similar" in the same way that the Novus Ordo and the Liturgy of St. Basil are the same. It is the "minutiae" as you call it, that actually makes a Rite a Rite. And if the minutiae don't matter, then there is no reason why the 1661 Book of Common Prayer was not simply adopted by the Church for the Ordinariate, after all, apart from the minutiae its the same as the Roman Rite.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,724
    Indeed… Adam and Eve had similar “bones”. One set was even derived from the other! But one was man and one was woman…. They were not the same, and the TLM and NO are not the same either. Anyone who has attended both could tell you as much without even comparing the texts side by side 1:1.

    I suspect that the trend of people switching to SSPX parishes will only accelerate all the more. Same for vocations.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,372
    I am tempted to chuckle and check the calendar.
    Fr Z did, it's World Snake Day, inter alia.
    1200 x 1500 - 60K
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    STATEMENT OF THE CANONS REGULAR OF ST. JOHN CANTIUS
    REGARDING THE MOTU PROPRIO: TRADITIONIS CUSTODES

    Friday, July 16, 2021 - Memorial of Our Lady of Mount Carmel

    Today Pope Francis issued the Motu Proprio, Traditionis Custodis, concerning the use of the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite. Understandably this presents questions for our friends and the faithful of our parishes.
    The Canons Regular have offered both forms of the Roman Rite even prior to our founding, at the request of Joseph Cardinal Bernardin. For decades we have offered liturgical instruction to bishops, priests, and laity on the proper use of both liturgical forms, as well as its proper pastoral integration within parish life.
    We believe we are in a unique position to show the unity and diversity of the liturgical heritage of the Church. We were founded to offer the gifts and treasures of Holy Mother Church for the sanctification of all, in communion with the Magisterium, and “in union with the local ordinary and his diocesan mission” — Constitutions of the Canons Regular of St. John Cantius
    Francis Cardinal George, O.M.I. affirmed in 2003: “Here are the beginnings of a society, founded to make available to the people of God, the heritage and gifts of the universal Church in all their forms and all their splendor.”
    The celebration of both forms of the Roman Rite remains proper law for our Institute as affirmed in our Constitutions. In 2019, our local ordinary Cardinal Blase Cupich, Archbishop of Chicago, graciously approved these Constitutions which say -
    “We strive to present to the Church gifts that we take from Her treasury, both old and new. ‘The sacred Council declares that Holy Mother Church holds all lawfully recognized rites to be of equal right and dignity; that she wishes to preserve them in the future and to foster them in every way.’ — Sacrosanctum Concilium
    The Canons Regular of St. John Cantius are aware of the treasures that we have in both editions of the Roman Missal—the Ordinary Form of the Latin Rite (Forma ordinaria, according to the Roman Missal promulgated by Blessed Paul VI in 1970) in Latin and in the vernacular, as well as the Extraordinary Form of the Latin Rite (Forma extraordinaria, according to the Roman Missal promulgated by Saint John XXIII in 1962) along with all of its related liturgical books.” —Constitutions of the Canons Regular of St. John Cantius
    The Canons Regular of St. John Cantius remain focused on our mission of Restoring the Sacred and will continue our vital work at our parishes and apostolates; offering the Roman Rite in both the Ordinary and Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite.
  • We are not all religious. But no matter opinions, it is always good to remember that obedience is a virtue. It is a hard for one to swallow at times, and decisions might not always be right but if we truly believe that the Pope is "Sweet Christ on Earth" then we must learn to say FIAT.

    And we can be honest: there is room for a little more charity on both sides of the fence.

    "Ut unum sint"
    Thanked by 1MarkS
  • pfreese
    Posts: 147
    Re Corine’s statement from the Canons of St. John Cantius, I’m going to take for granted that they cleared it with the Cardinal and/or his chancery. Might be an indication on how similar apostolates may move forward elsewhere.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    But do the Canons of St. John Cantius have to proclaim the readings in the vernacular instead of in Latin when they celebrate the TLM? That's my conclusion:

    Art. 3. The bishop of the diocese in which until now there exist one or more groups that celebrate according to the Missal antecedent to the reform of 1970:

    § 3. to establish at the designated locations the days on which eucharistic celebrations are permitted using the Roman Missal promulgated by Saint John XXIII in 1962. [7] In these celebrations the readings are proclaimed in the vernacular language, using translations of the Sacred Scripture approved for liturgical use by the respective Episcopal Conferences;

    Thanked by 1toddevoss
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    The statement from the Latin Mass Society in the UK is sound:
    In light of the release of the Apostolic Letter Traditionis Custodes this morning, we would now like to comment on this document and explain in simpler terms for many of our followers what this document actually means.

    It will be a grave disappointment to those many priests and lay Catholics who responded to the words of Pope St John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, who encouraged the use of the earlier liturgical tradition, calling it a ‘rightful aspiration’ and ‘riches’ for the Church, respectively. These Catholics have worked hard over many years, particularly since 2007, to build up the unity of the Church, which as the Second Vatican Council declared does not depend on liturgical uniformity but on unity of faith under the Pope (Sacrosanctum Concilium 37; Orientalium Ecclesiarum 2).

    The provision that the EF not be celebrated in parish churches appears entirely unworkable, in the context of the careful provision which has been made over many years by bishops all over the world.

    The overall negative judgement of the EF and the communities which attend it seems wholly unwarranted, and we would challenge any apologist for this document to produce real evidence that the EF has undermined the unity of the Church, compared, say, to the celebration of Eastern Rites in the West, the special liturgical celebrations of the Neocatechumenate, or the great variety of liturgical styles found in the context of the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite.

    In detail, looking at the provisions of the document:

    Art 1: This appears to overturn Pope Benedict XVI’s claim that the Roman Rite can be considered as having two ‘Forms’, Ordinary and Extraordinary. The document adopts the terminology of ‘the 1962 Missal’.

    Art 2: This rolls back the presumption of authorisation for the 1962 Missal which was created by Summorum Pontificum in 2007. However, that claim was based on the fact that the older Missal had never been abrogated. Since this document does not formally abrogate it, this creates a legal anomaly.

    Art 3.1: the insistence that groups attending EF accept, in some sense, the ‘validity and legitimacy’ of the reformed Mass is reminiscent of earlier documents (e.g. the Indult of 1984). This seems no more than an empty gesture, however, since now as formerly it is impossible to know how bishops would go about enforcing this.

    Art 3.2: in practice bishops all over the world have, on their own initiative or by approving the initiative of their priests, designated where the old Mass can be celebrated. The insistence that these places not be parish churches, and that they no erect any further personal parishes, would seem to present bishops with an unnecessary problem.

    Many parishes contain ‘chapels of ease’, the oratories of religious communities, and other places of worship, as well as parish churches, but it is obscure what advantage would be had, from any point of view, in transferring celebrations of the 1962 Missal to such locations.

    Art 3.3: similarly, bishops have already in practice ‘designated’ when the 1962 Missal is celebrated, as they know about, and at least by implication permit, all the public celebrations of Mass in their dioceses. It should also be noted that the Epistle and Gospel are commonly read in the vernacular at 1962 celebrations, and that this document does not forbid them from being proclaimed in Latin as well, which is what normally happens.

    Art 3.4, Art 5: these re-establish the system in place before 2007 when bishops had to permit priests to celebrate the 1962 Missal. Once again, however, bishops today know and by implication permit their priests to do this, since they assign them to parish ministry or to some other task in this knowledge. Expecting priests to apply for this permission (Art 5) again will be for many priests and bishops a pointless bureaucratic exercise.

    Art 3.5: Bishops always have the power to regulate and, for sufficient reason, to close down, pastoral activities in their dioceses. What this, and many other provisions of this document, appear to establish, however, is a hermeneutic of suspicion towards the 1962 Missal and those who celebrate or attend it: almost, that they be regarded as guilty until proven innocent.

    Art 3.6, Art 4: To remove the bishops’ power to establish new groups, and to permit newly ordained priests to celebrated the 1962 Mass, seems to contradict the document’s insistence on bishops’ authority and discretion.

    Art 6 and 7: these effectively abolish the authority of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith for matters connected with the 1962 Missal, which was reiterated only a short time ago when Pope Francis amalgamated the Pontificum Commission Ecclesia Dei with the CDF.

    If implemented rigorously, this document will seriously disrupt long-established celebrations of the older Missal, and will drive a great many faithful Catholics, who desire nothing more than to attend the ancient Mass in communion with their bishops and the Holy Father, to attend celebrations which fall outside they structures of the Church, above all those of the Society of St Pius X.


    source: FB
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 543
    What does "proclaim" even mean? It is nearly a universal practice that the readings of the EF are read in the vernacular in a proclamatory fashion at the beginning of the sermon.

    Certainly priests cannot be expected to say the EF in a way which directly violates the rubrics of that form.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    By issuing this Motu Proprio, the reigning pope negated the legislation of the previous pope.

    The next pope can just as easily negate this legislation.

    That seems to be the character of a motu proprio, and the promulgation of this document drives home its temporary, at-the-will-of-the-reigning-pontiff character.
  • As far as I can tell, there's an internal contradition in the document.

    The TLM can not be celebrated in regular parishes.

    The TLM can not be celebrated in personal parishes.

    As far as I can tell, this document says "With the proper permissions, you may celebrate the TLM, except that there are no locations at which it may be licitly celebrated."
  • pfreese
    Posts: 147
    Content aside, the text is a mess. I bet everyone at the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts are screaming internally right now. I can totally understand why everyone’s struggling to make out what it means day to day.
    Thanked by 1toddevoss
  • Yeah I think this document is badly written, confusing, makes unrealistic demands (like not in a parish, not in a personal parish, so...), and will result in partial compliance.
    Thanked by 2chonak toddevoss
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    I think "proclaim" means to read aloud formally, first, from the ambo, as the required liturgical act, without implying any subsequent reading in a different language. So up until now, at TLMs the readings were "proclaimed" in Latin and subsequently (but not always nor necessarily) "read" in the vernacular.

    My interpretation is that the new legislation indeed requires the readings at TLMs to be proclaimed in the vernacular instead of Latin, although during the homily portion I suppose the priest could reread the same readings aloud in Latin, if he wanted to.
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 543
    Apart from your personal interpretation, what grounds have you to stand on in your defining of the action "proclaim"?
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • pfreese
    Posts: 147
    Since the text is a mess, and will almost certainly be revised and clarified, might be worth it for those who prefer MR 1962 to pray that forthcoming revisions/clarifications are made with terms favorable to them.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    As far as I can tell, there's an internal contradition in the document.

    The TLM can not be celebrated in regular parishes.

    The TLM can not be celebrated in personal parishes.


    You're missing a key word regarding personal parishes: no new personal parishes.

    § 2. is to designate one or more locations where the faithful adherents of these groups may gather for the eucharistic celebration (not however in the parochial churches and without the erection of new personal parishes);


    § 5. to proceed suitably to verify that the parishes canonically erected for the benefit of these faithful are effective for their spiritual growth, and to determine whether or not to retain them;


    So the TLM is permitted in personal parishes already dedicated for that purpose, yet those must be evaluated by the bishop to ensure they don't reject Vatican II and that the community is effective for spiritual growth when making a decision about whether to retain it as a personal parish for celebrating the TLM.

    But no new personal parishes for celebrating the TLM may be created, and the TLM is not permitted at regular parishes.

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Exactly Kathy, Popes come, popes go. Blessed be the name of the Lord.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    Apart from your personal interpretation, what grounds have you to stand on in your defining of the action "proclaim"?


    The GIRM repeatedly uses "proclaim" in reference to the Scripture readings being read aloud during Mass from the ambo as the official liturgical act in the Liturgy of the Word. To "proclaim" the readings therefore means to read them as the liturgical act, not as a non-liturgical repetition.

    Before you say the GIRM doesn't apply to the TLM, think about what "proclaim" would mean in this new liturgical legislation. The word should be understood to mean what it means elsewhere in liturgical law, such as how it is used in the GIRM.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    "[The oath] will mean what the words say!
    An oath is made of words!
    It may be possible to take it. Or avoid it."
    - Thomas More, A Man for All Seasons

    We can all accept that Vatican II took place.
    ...and that everybody has varying opinions on how well it went, how much the bishops agreed with everything, and how well they implemented their changes, etc...
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    jclangfo:

    As far as I can tell, there's an internal contradition in the document.

    The TLM can not be celebrated in regular parishes.

    The TLM can not be celebrated in personal parishes.


    I find this particularly interesting. The TLM is only celebrated in parish churches in this diocese. There are no personal parishes.
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 543
    Mark it still seems a stretch to me, especially since it contradicts any previously existing allowances (in regard to the rubrics of the '62 and any modifications made to them as of SP).
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Another writer has observed that a striking thing about the document is how it declares the powers of the bishop and simultaneously tries to curtail them.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    So... let's get technical:
    A cathedral or a basilica would not necessarily be "parishes," right?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    A basilica could function as a parish and cathedrals also can be parishes. That's why I find the whole thing confusing.
  • pfreese
    Posts: 147
    “ A cathedral or a basilica would not necessarily be "parishes," right?”

    In the US, they almost invariably are.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    Again, about the language of the readings in permitted TLMs, here's the new controlling legislation:

    § 3. to establish at the designated locations the days on which eucharistic celebrations are permitted using the Roman Missal promulgated by Saint John XXIII in 1962. [7] In these celebrations the readings are proclaimed in the vernacular language, using translations of the Sacred Scripture approved for liturgical use by the respective Episcopal Conferences;


    The fact that a translation "approved for liturgical use" must be the source of the proclaimed readings underscores that this new law intends the proclamation of readings in the vernacular at future TLMs to be the principal liturgical proclamation of Scripture at those Masses; that proclamation of the readings in the vernacular replaces proclamation of readings in Latin as the liturgical act during the Liturgy of the Word. Otherwise the Douay-Rheims, which I believe has been the preferred source for the repeated vernacular readings in TLM communities, would be permitted to be used. But the Douay-Rheims is not approved for liturgical use.

    Why state that the vernacular translation must be approved for liturgical use if its use is not to be a liturgical act?
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    If the Church states that everything is to be understood "in the original sense of the Latin typical text"... it makes no sense that a translation would come before the original Latin.

    Exactly how many vernacular translations must be "proclaimed" on any given Sunday?
    Does everyone sign-in with their 1st language, just to make sure we have it all covered?

    Or since the official language is English in the US, do all Spanish or Vietnamese or whatever else NO Masses have to have their readings proclaimed in English?
  • cmb
    Posts: 84
    Since the text is a mess, and will almost certainly be revised and clarified

    Just like Amoris Laetitia, right?
  • pfreese
    Posts: 147
    Eh, fair cop
  • This document is demonic. There is no way the Novus Ordo can be considered the Roman Rite. It is not, and everyone knows it in their hearts.
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    As I noted earlier, I could see schism resulting from all of this. Is that a bad thing? You decide. The Orthodox have done quite well with it since the 11th century. Would the TLM folks fare as well? Who knows?
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • I have a lot of mixed emotions at hearing this news today. I first thought the rumors of this were a conspiracy theory, and I would go to sleep tonight and nothing would have changed. Obviously, I was wrong. This document today makes me sad. I never got to experience the EF. My girlfriend and I were talking about taking a trip to our cathedral to attend the EF mass they offered on Sunday afternoons. That is an experience we will never get to share. I also find it quite sad that the pope thought this necessary for the unity of the Church. Only time will tell if he is right, and for the good of the Church, I hope he is.

    Some of the wording of this document and the internal contradictions in it are quite confusing. I hope that these issues will get resolved and the Church will thrive. Which, for the record, is what we all should be hoping for regardless of whether or not we like the current pope or the things he does.

    I have joked that the two groups of people who argue the most are theologians and musicians. We church musicians happen to be part of both, and it is true, we do argue a lot. Some if it is intellectual debate, and some of it is not. I can't could the amount of times that a thread on this forum starts as a legitimate question about how to implement an EF practice licitly in the OF, or about how to make a piece of music written for the EF able to be used in the OF, for that thread to later turn into an argument about the EF vs the OF. It brings me to a comment that I made on the forum earlier this week about the purpose of SP is to bring a more reverent celebration of the OF, not to condescend on those that attend the OF instead of the EF. I am not going to assign blame; I am not going to accuse anyone of bad intent; I am simply making an observation about what I see on this forum. And, for the record, I love this forum. I love that I can ask a question about music or liturgy, and there is always someone on here that knows the answer. I love all the new compositions that people post on here.

    I think that it is time for us to get back to why we signed up to be church musicians. It isn't for our own glorification, it isn't because we want people to see how good of musicians we are. If that is what we wanted, we would go become concert pianists or soloists for a famous choir. We became church musicians because we felt a calling to use our talents for the glory of God. Every time I climb the steps to the choir loft, I have to remind myself that I do what I do to bring truth, goodness, and beauty to the liturgy. That is what everyone here needs to do going forward. We have to make the best of what is given to us. We need to focus on making the masses that we attend as beautiful and reverent as we can.

    **Sorry for the rant. I just had a lot of thoughts on this that I needed to get out.**
  • Chrism
    Posts: 868
    The Orthodox have done quite well with it since the 11th century


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo0X77OBJUg
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    About the confusion regarding locations at which future TLMs may be celebrated, this is my understanding:

    1. No TLMs at regular parishes, not even at those regular parishes that had been celebrating TLMs. Not during the weekdays, not on Sundays, solemnities or feasts, not regularly and not even occasionally. None.
    2. TLMs may continue at personal parishes already established for that purpose, but their continued existence is not guaranteed and is subject to the decision of the bishop whether to retain them.
    3. No new TLM personal parishes.
    4. Groups that want the TLM that currently celebrate in parishes will have to be directed to a different location designated by the bishop. Maybe an existing personal TLM parish? Maybe an oratory or chapel not attached to a parish? Such as at a Catholic university? And the days on which the TLM may be celebrated must be designated specifically in advance.
    5. And, what few have noticed, not only no new personal TLM parishes, but no new groups of faithful who want the TLM. So a new group of people cannot be granted permission and a designated location for celebrating the TLM; only existing groups are grandfathered in. I suppose people could join an existing group.

    Am I right or wrong about any of that?
  • The Orthodox are schismatic and heretical. They lead souls to Hell. Pachamama Popes lead souls to Hell as well.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    You might say rabid TLM folks aren't helping anyone toward salvation, either.

    The center of Orthodoxy shifted to Moscow some centuries ago. While Constantinople has heritage it has very few Orthodox people since its conquest. However, go into a Russian Orthodox liturgy and you will see reverence and devotion you are unlikely to see in the typical RC parish,

    Even your beloved popes have refuted the schismatic and heretical labels for the Orthodox. They are a sister church not in communion with the west at this time. Many Orthodox do a better job of proclaiming and living the ancient faith than you will find in many western churches.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Multiple TLM locations, bishops, etc., have announced that things will go on as normal.
    Thanks be to God.

    Have any of your bishops/pastors actually said otherwise, at this point?
    Thanked by 2trentonjconn tomjaw
  • The Orthodox are heretics and schismatic. They lead souls to Hell. CharlesW leads souls to Hell with his heretical and erroneous views. He is a very bad man.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    At least I don't play piano, only organ. Bleah!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934

    Have any of your bishops/pastors actually said otherwise, at this point?


    Too early. Much is unknown at this time, but there is plenty of speculation.
  • I play both, but your personal insult is noted. You still lead souls to Hell with your erroneous and heretical views. Catholics don't praise the Orthodox who lead souls to Eternal Damnation. You don't love souls.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    For the record, I am not Orthodox but Eastern Catholic. I would think your religious rabies would do far more harm than any done by Orthodoxy.
    Thanked by 2MarkB CHGiffen
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 543
    .
  • The Orthodox lead souls to Hell. Catholics don't praise them. Only a heretic such as yourself would do such a thing. They believe in heresies of all kinds, including divorce and remarriage. Your rite matters not. Either you are Catholic or you are not. It is evident from your many posts here that you are not. You seek to sow lies and heresies.
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 543
    Buddy, let's take a chill pill.
    Thanked by 2cmb MarkB
  • The truth is the truth. You can run but you can't hide from the truth. Those who promote heresies and schisms will be judged severely by their Maker.


    [Those who sling insults recklessly will be judged severely by the admin.--admin]
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