Did Vatican II Open The Floodgates?
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,798
    'Red Spain' with a constitutional (if disgraced) monarch seems a bit of a stretch. For a Catholic monarchist's take on Franco, read Bernanos' Les grands cimetières sous la lune. If dead communists can tip Franco's scale, what is one supposed to make of Stalin's dead nazis?
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    desiring the TLM caricature of the clergy performing elaborate choreography up front while the people have zero clue what's actually happening.


    Kinda judge-y, eh?

    What IS it with you folks who know the interior disposition of EVERYONE? I didn't know we had that much talent in the church-musician ranks!
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  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    Do you have anything to add to the discussion beyond meaningless sniping, several times in a row now?
    Thanked by 1GerardH
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    .
    Thanked by 1francis
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Whether you agree with him or not, he calls them the way he sees them. Honesty is rare these days.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,821
    an even poorer choice of words or assessment of the situation thereof
    desiring the TLM caricature of the clergy performing elaborate choreography up front while the people have zero clue what's actually happening.

    Are you seriously calling the act of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass “elaborate choreography”? Isn’t that akin to saying Christ did nothing more than the same on the cross? Do you understand that the Mass is not a re-enactment of Calvary but THE actual one and the same sacrifice being offered for you as you are present? Is it not enough to stand in silence and offer tears as did our Blessed Mother and those who loved and followed him? (A rosary is like a tear for each bead you offer) That was the “Actual Participation” of the most august congregation at Calvary. There was nothing for them to add but their honoring sorrow.

    Our inner disposition is the primary act required of us. All else is secondary.

    And our organ postludes and preludes are simply a flag to take notice of the altar, what has just occurred there and what is about to take place.

    More to help you understand here:

    https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/teachings/sacrifice-of-the-mass-234
    Thanked by 1dad29
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I do understand all that, but I also understand the flair for costumes and the "look at me" behavior of some overly dramatic priests. Despite the heavenly nature of the mass, it is still being celebrated by flawed people. Those are not angels in vestments on the altar.
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  • piccolopat
    Posts: 14
    I do understand all that, but I also understand the flair for costumes and the "look at me" behavior of some overly dramatic priests. Despite the heavenly nature of the mass, it is still being celebrated by flawed people. Those are not angels in vestments on the altar.

    Charles W- How true. We once had a popular priest from the area celebrating a healing mass here. During the entrance hymn, he was walking down the main aisle and greeting people left and right, shaking hands and giving hugs. It was almost like Jesus entering Jerusalem on Palm Sunday. We had to repeat the hymn a couple of time because of how long he was taking to get to the altar. We found it very, very odd.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • francis
    Posts: 10,821
    Those are not angels in vestments on the altar.
    No, not an angel at all but one greater than that whom angels envy... the man In Personae Christi. Which priest do you behold at Mass? The flawed sinner or the Son of God?

    Unfortunately, the NO is very much showing off the first... while the VO diminishes the man in favor of the God.

    @poccolopat

    You drive home the comparison. Very odd indeed.

    @CarlesW

    Are the robes of the king mere costumes?
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Francis, I have seen EF masses that were little more than drag shows with feminine priests swishing around showing off. Something seriously wrong there. You are fond of knocking the OF, but remember the priests in the EF are clearly visible.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    francis - I agree that the scope for showing off is greater in the OF. That is because it is more demanding on the celebrant than the EF. It became evident after VII that many priests had been taught little in the way of intelligent consideration of the ars celebrandi, mainly a set of mechanical gestures which would have been better performed by a robot. What they had been taught in the way of spiritual engagement I would not know. I have mentioned before that among the monks I saw celebrating pre-VII, including those for whom I served Mass, there was an appearence of differing levels of engagement. And the one whose obituary said "for him the Mass was the still centre of a turning world" raised my attentiveness just by the way he stood and moved and spoke, (that is my attentiveness to the Holy Sacrifice, not to the priest).
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    I have seen EF masses that were little more than drag shows with feminine priests swishing around showing off


    Tit/Tat: I can introduce you to a local OF priest who bleats out Broadway tunes as part of his 'homily.' The point Francis makes stands regardless
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    meaningless sniping


    Someone keeps providing mean-spirited remarks about my ancestors, pal. If you could read, you'd also notice that I have made substantial contributions earlier
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    The EF is just as open to abuse as the OF. Particularly in dioceses where the bishop isn't crazy about having the EF in the first place. He wouldn't do much about any abuses. The saving grace of the EF is that it was brought back by people who actually care about it.
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Charles, you could broaden it to this: "....particularly in Dioceses where the Bishop doesn't really care about liturgy at all...."

    Unfortunately, that's a LOT of them in the USA.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • francis
    Posts: 10,821
    Doesn’t look like either side of us is winning anybody over to the other with this bantering as usual... but the proof is in the pudding.

    All the TLMs I’ve been going to are like heaven on earth... correction... ARE literally heaven on earth.

    And since we always discuss such weighty matters upon here our fairest forum, could I invite a little levity?

    Charles, I am curious about your attendance at ‘Swishing Drag Show TLM’... where and when did you attend? How in God’s Forsaken Land of Liturgical Devastation did you end up there? Were you in Las Vegas, Lost Angeles, or just plain Lost?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    No, I just dropped into one here a few years ago and it was nuts. The TLM now is pretty good and they have good people. I was just noting that fruits and nuts are no respecters of denomination or liturgy. They can be anywhere.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • francis
    Posts: 10,821
    Where is here?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Sent you a private message.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    St. Cdl. Newman:

    ...as I have said for months past that I never knew what worship was, as an objective fact, till I entered the Catholic Church, and was partaker in its offices of devotion, so now I say the same on the view of its cathedral assemblages. I have expressed myself so badly that I doubt if you will understand me, but a Catholic Cathedral is a sort of world, every one going about his own business, but that business a religious one; groups of worshippers, and solitary ones – kneeling, standing – some at shrines, some at altars – hearing Mass and communicating, currents of worshippers intercepting and passing by each other – altar after altar lit up for worship, like stars in the firmament – or the bell giving notice of what is going on in parts you do not see, and all the while the canons in the choir going through matins and lauds, and at the end of it the incense rolling up from the high altar, and all this in one of the most wonderful buildings in the world and every day – lastly, all of this without any show or effort – but what everyone is used to – everyone at his own work, and leaving everyone else to his. ...
    (Emphasis added)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,821
    ...and lo, the Traditional Mass is all but banned from St. Peter’s, for which IT was the reason it was originally built.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    “The appearance of the church in the modern era shows that in a completely new way it has become a church of heathens, and increasingly so: no longer, as it once was, a Church made up of heathens who have become Christians, but a Church of heathens, who will call themselves Christians, but have really become heathens. Heathenism is entrenched today in the church itself. That is the mark of the Church of our time and also of the new heathenism. This heathenism is actually in the church and a church in whose heart heathenism lives”
    Joseph Ratzinger, Hochland, October 1958
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