CCWatershed Brébeuf Hymnal
  • a1437053a1437053
    Posts: 198
    matthewj: the copyright page says
    Published with ecclesiastical approval.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,725
    I think Matthew is raising the question again because the above doesn't state who approved it. If I understand the canon right, an imprimatur has to come from an ordinary of either the publisher or the author. It might be the bishop of the diocese or a vicar general, for example. On the other hand, some publications have received permission directly from the USCCB Committee for Divine Worship.
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,957
    By the way, it's fine for people involved in the hymnal's development or in other CCW projects to post here about it.


    It is fine for them to post about it. Maybe they really like it that much. I am free to believe or not believe them.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,725
    Obviously some people like it and are enthusiastic about it. If they've been able to start using it in their parishes, it would be interesting to hear what they've been able to do with it so far.

    To look at this from another angle: let's imagine this book with some of the unconventional choices normalized. Suppose it were to start with the collection of well-known hymns, with their conventional titles and texts (unless a text originally from a non-Catholic source needed an edit for doctrinal reasons).

    Suppose the collection of ancient hymns were published separately as a resource for musicians, and also included in this hymnal but reduced to just two versions of each hymn. It could be presented as a distinct section or just integrated into the presentation of the other hymns.

    In sum, the content of the book could be kept substantially the same. The book might not seem as dramatically different from everything else; but the good qualities of its content could speak for themselves, without the distraction of unusual formatting.
  • ncicero
    Posts: 25
    I'm glad to finally see some spirited discussion of the Brebeuf Hymnal on this forum!

    I think I share many of the same praises that others have given, yet questions that others have raised, so I won't go into that. BUT, I do have some legitimate questions that I don't believe have been addressed yet. Perhaps someone from CCW could give some insight?

    1. Does anyone know exactly who was on the editorial committee? I've always found it helpful when hymnals release this information, as most GIA Hymnals and several others have. For me, it helps give an idea of the ideological bent of the entire team, and assures me that every decision was indeed argued over, and not simply because of one person's preference, as many would say was the case with the V2 Hymnal. At the risk of sounding uncharitable, some quirks in the Brebeuf seem characteristically Jeff Ostrowski, and his apparent secrecy over the committee has me wondering who actually did most of the work for this hymnal.

    2. Who exactly is the publisher? Was an effort made to erase the name of CC Watershed completely from the hymnal? What is the John Paul II Institute for Liturgical Renewal? What is Nicolas Viel Publications? Do they do more than serve as a shell company for the sole purpose of printing this hymnal? Everything about the publishing just seems fishy here, including the vague "ecclesiastical approval" without stating who gave it, something that even the mainstream hymnals do.

    3. Who is Peter Lejeune? Richard Clark, Kevin Allen, and Jeff Ostrowski, the other composers of new hymn tunes are all names I recognize, and names that are rightly well-respected in the church music community. For the record, I think Mr. Lejeune's work both here and other places on CC Watershed is superb, I just legitimately wonder who he is. The footnotes say he was born in 1991 and is the organist at St. John Vianney Catholic Church in Springfield. Massachusetts? Illinois? A quick Google search reveals that there are no St. John Vianney Catholic Churches anywhere in a locality known as Springfield. Does anyone know Peter? I just would like to know more about his background, as I really admire his hymn tunes!

    4. This has been briefly discussed, but I think the "credits" at the bottom of each hymn, while exhaustive, raise some editing eyebrows. Has anyone else noticed that the melody or text source is often listed as "The St. Jean de Brebeuf Hymnal"? Many sources are credited as being from the Vatican II hymnal, but surely they've appeared in other places before that.

    Woof. I sound angry. I promise I'm not. I very much appreciate the work that went into this hymnal, and it has proved an excellent edition to my collection so far in terms of scholarship, new melodies, and interesting information about some well-known hymns and hymn authors. I really would appreciate a follow-up to these questions, if anyone has answers!

    Thanks.
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 396
    Who is Peter Lejeune? Richard Clark, Kevin Allen, and Jeff Ostrowski, the other composers of new hymn tunes are all names I recognize, and names that are rightly well-respected in the church music community. For the record, I think Mr. Lejeune's work both here and other places on CC Watershed is superb, I just legitimately wonder who he is. The footnotes say he was born in 1991 and is the organist at St. John Vianney Catholic Church in Springfield. Massachusetts? Illinois? A quick Google search reveals that there are no St. John Vianney Catholic Churches anywhere in a locality known as Springfield. Does anyone know Peter? I just would like to know more about his background, as I really admire his hymn tunes!



    I spent a good hour on Google about a month ago with this question. Oddly difficult to find an answer.
    Thanked by 1ncicero
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,715
    Some info here, though I note some folks might compose some of their works under a nom de plume (not necessarily the case in this instance, but just saying):

    http://www.ccwatershed.org/media/pdfs/18/10/02/02-27-40_0.pdf
    Thanked by 1ncicero
  • ncicero
    Posts: 25
    @Liam this only adds to my suspicion! "Mr. Lejeune can be reached through
    the offices of the John Paul II Institute for Liturgical Renewal" (which also has dubious origins?)

    I think the pseudonym possibility is real.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 708
    This has been briefly discussed, but I think the "credits" at the bottom of each hymn, while exhaustive, raise some editing eyebrows.

    I went through a couple of references / footnotes and noticed a couple of things:

    First, the footnotes generally tend to give more information than other hymnals usually do. I appreciate that. As I use this hymnal mainly as a source material, these footnotes give me the opportunity to critically evaluate the tunes printed. Some hymnals have this information at the back in an index, or even in a separate compendium, but here it's right at the bottom of the page. Wonderful!

    That positive point being made, I found some issues.

    The music source doesn't always mention the earliest location of a hymn tune. As an example, for William Monk's tune MERTON (#655), the earliest given source is the New Westminster Hymnal (1939). But MERTON was published as early as 1850 in The Parish Choir. Why Hymns, Psalms, and Spiritual Canticles (1983) and the New Westminster Hymnal are specifically referenced remains unclear to me.

    Another example: O Heiland reiß die Himmel auf (#659). Next to the original 1666 source for the tune (I would have added 'Augsburg'), three additional musical sources are given. But the way the tune eventually is printed in The Brébeuf Hymnal doesn't resemble any of them. The first reference is Gotteslob, to which the Brébeuf version rightly is the closest. The rhythm of this version is historically indeed the correct one. But Gotteslob has a time signature of 6/4, which is left out in Brébeuf and it subsequently employs another measure. But I'm really confused by the references to The Parish Hymnal (1957) and the Pope Pius XII Hymnal (1959). Here the rhythms and even meter are completely different and out of step with the original tune! These clearly couldn't have served as musical sources for the tune that is printed at #659. Why mention them?
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Elmar
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,715
    Ncicero

    That (and the Marine-resonant surname) is precisely what made me consider that possibility. Origins is over my pay grade, but I am aware of how the culture of creating institutes (a favored churchy echo of secular think-tanks) with overlapping networks of the like-minded to promote is quite robust in certain circles. Anyway, while this *is* speculation, it wouldn't shock me to learn if a diocesan cleric or seminarian used a nom de plume for sacred music compositional efforts. Or someone who had or wished to maintain a more controversial public presence under his/her legal name without that bleeding into an avocation of composition. Among many reasons similar to those that have historically grounded decisions to use pen names.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,401
    @smvanroode: The answer to your query on tune sources is in plain sight: This is supposed to be THE MOST CATHOLIC-EST HYMNAL EVER!!!

    Notice that the sources they do cite are Catholic. However, MERTON is an Anglican tune and The Parish Choir is a Church of England book; whereas O Heiland reiss is a Lutheran chorale, which is why they cite the Catholic Gotteslob, but don't give the origin of the 17th century original: the name of "Augsburg" should never be printed in a Catholic book, lest fire from heaven consume us, since it is the city of origin of the infamous 'Augsburg Confession' of the heresiarch Martin Luther.
  • Elmar
    Posts: 111
    Heiland reiss is a Lutheran chorale, which is why they cite the Catholic Gotteslob, but don't give the origin of the 17th century original: the name of "Augsburg" should never be printed in a Catholic book, lest fire from heaven consume us, since it is the city of origin of the infamous 'Augsburg Confession' of the heresiarch Martin Luther
    Thank heaven that I never bothered to read the footnotes when I was young - I might have ended as a PROTESTANT!!!
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,401
    Thank heaven that I never bothered to read the footnotes when I was young - I might have ended as a PROTESTANT!!!

    I am resisting the urge to post a link to Lutheran Satire's 'We are the Protestants'...
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,107
    Some info here, though I note some folks might compose some of their works under a nom de plume (not necessarily the case in this instance, but just saying)

    Jeff Ostrowski has written at CCW that he, himself, has composed under a nom de plume and that at some point in the future he may reveal what that name is.
    Thanked by 2Liam BruceL
  • davido
    Posts: 169
    Salieri please link it, I can’t find it
  • davido
    Posts: 169
    Liam, thanks, that was amusing.

    I liked how that video missed the fact that they were comparing a German liturgical repertoire with an English folk repertoire, which created the basic differences between the two.
  • G
    Posts: 1,387
    the "credits" at the bottom of each hymn, while exhaustive, raise some editing eyebrows. Has anyone else noticed that the melody or text source is often listed as "The St. Jean de Brebeuf Hymnal"? Many sources are credited as being from the Vatican II hymnal, but surely they've appeared in other places before that.

    I did some proof-reading on the project, and I found the principles behind the credits' construction opaque, to put it mildly.
    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen tomjaw Salieri
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,107
    I find such source attributions & citations very disturbing indeed, especially in light of my extensive dealings with copyright issues for CPDL. Historical inaccuracy (especially in the form of lacunae) and apparent neglectful appropriation of material seem to be rife with this hymnal. Whatever happened to citing as accurate a historical source as possible and, following long time standard hymnal publishing practice, adding whenever necessary alt. (for altered texts) or arr. (for arranged melodies & harmonies)???
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,725
    Jeff Ostrowski offers a commentary that addresses some of the topics discussed here:
    http://www.ccwatershed.org/blog/2019/may/29/what-makes-catholic-hymnal/
  • davido
    Posts: 169
    .
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 708
    Jeff makes a good point in distinguishing between text and melody. There are two sources which, I think, present more clearly and systematically criteria for texts and melodies of Catholic hymns.

    As for the texts, I would like to refer to the criteria issued by the Dutch bishops in 2005 by which hymns should be judged. For songs other than the proper texts, they distinguish between three main categories:
    1. biblical texts, either translated, paraphrased or alluded
    2. texts from liturgical sources, translated or paraphrased
    3. free text compositions; these need to be a) doctrinal sound, giving explicit expression to the Catholic faith, and should b) be suitable for their particular liturgical place and purpose

    As for the melodies, I refer to what Pope Saint John Paul II wrote in his 1999 Letter to Artists and his 2003 Chirograph on Sacred Music, from which I quote at length (emphasis is mine):
    12. With regard to compositions of liturgical music, I make my own the "general rule" that St Pius X formulated in these words: "The more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savour the Gregorian melodic form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple". It is not, of course, a question of imitating Gregorian chant but rather of ensuring that new compositions are imbued with the same spirit that inspired and little by little came to shape it. Only an artist who is profoundly steeped in the sensus Ecclesiae can attempt to perceive and express in melody the truth of the Mystery that is celebrated in the Liturgy. In this perspective, in my Letter to Artists I wrote: "How many sacred works have been composed through the centuries by people deeply imbued with the sense of mystery! The faith of countless believers has been nourished by melodies flowing from the hearts of other believers, either introduced into the Liturgy or used as an aid to dignified worship. In song, faith is experienced as vibrant joy, love and confident expectation of the saving intervention of God".

    In summary: a composition that flows from the heart of someone who is steeped in the sensus Ecclesiae and imbued with a true sense of mystery is able to express the praise of God and nourish the faith of believers.

    Hymnody shapes the faith of people. Texts and melodies should each be judged by their merits to kindle the praise of God, move to an eagerness to pray and excite piety in a way that is on par with Catholic doctrine.
    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 254
    To me, at least, it seems the obsession to make everything superficially "Catholic" has produced a book so idiosyncratic that it appeals to nobody in the mainstream market. I can understand this sentiment, to an extent - surely, we wish to support mother Church wherever we can and use those melodies and texts from our own patrimony. Here, though, it seems to be used to justify decisions that would not make sense from any other point of view - like altering every single hymn text in the book to eradicate any content the panel deemed "un-Catholic".

    Those of us who have read "Why Catholics Can't Sing" should know all too well the dangers of rejecting everything deemed "un-Catholic" out of instinct.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,725
    Every hymn text? Well, of course you only mean the ones in English; but literally?
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 254
    That's what was advertised on their website. Every text is under copyright because every single text was edited in some way. Believe it also came up in an earlier thread about the hymnal here.
  • tandrews
    Posts: 31
    I've been reading Jeff's blog post from yesterday. What hymn tune is Altona? I can't find it on hymnary, and google is little better.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,107
    ALTONA is the German Christmas chorale tune, apparently by Martin Luther, better known to us as "Vom Himmel hoch da komm ich her". I found it under the name ALTONA at No. 43 in The Tune Book of Pollok St. U.P. Church, edited by William Hume, published 1866, Glasgow.
  • ncicero
    Posts: 25
    like altering every single hymn text in the book to eradicate any content the panel deemed "un-Catholic".


    The "panel".... Do we know who was on this editorial board? I'm not trying to be uncharitable, it just seems fishy to me- I'm genuinely curious who (if anyone) was on the mysterious, unnamed panel.

  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,401
    ALTONA is..."Vom Himmel hoch da komm ich her".

    Then why on earth not call it VOM HIMMEL HOCH---A name that people recognize???? I would like to see the notes for that tune in the book: To whom do they credit the tune, "An Augustinian Canon, based on Sanctus IX"? Actually, I'm surprised that they used the name ALTONA since it came from a Prot. source--They should have renamed it BORGIA--then it would really be 'Catholic'. I hate to say it, but I read the article yesterday, and the words that came to my mind were 'give me a break'.

    And with the "Catholic" thing--it begs the question: If so much vernacular hymnody (text and music) is so un-Catholic that it needs to be revised and mis-attributed to protect the guilty, why bother producing a vernacular hymnal? Just give the people the Cantus Selecti or the Parish Book of Chant and be done with it.

    And, again, I have to ask: How long will this hymnal be on the market? Is it worth investing in if in six months' time it will be out of print and parishes will be unable to buy new copies? This is a problem with CCW: They are an invaluable resource for historical material; but they've produced more hymnals in the past few years than the C of E has since the reign of Edward VI.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,107
    "The Tune Book of Pollok St. U.P. Church" ... the italicised stuff is "Pollok Street United Presbyterian Church" (in Glasgow). Perhaps that explains the ALTONA moniker. You can Google the book to see the score and attribution to Martin Luther. Besides, that was published in 1866.

    image
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,107
    ALTONA is also known as ERFURT, MAGDEBURG, or even WITTENBERG. As an example of the ubiquity of this chorale, see:

    https://hymnary.org/hymn/TRKI1965/page/158

    Yes, it is indeed VOM HIMMEL HOCH.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW tandrews
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,175
    Just give the people the Cantus Selecti or the Parish Book of Chant and be done with it.
    I seriously considered doing this EXACT SAME PROJECT years ago, but gave it up for good because of this logical conclusion... why would we perpetuate the faults (anomalies, distractions, novelties, divergence, compromise) of VII? Authentic sacred music does not necessitate a hymnal be in the pew for the Mass.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw rich_enough
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 1,350
    Authentic sacred music does not necessitate a hymnal
    Neither Catholic nor Anglican liturgical books afford a significant place for hymns. So why do both Catholic and Anglican churches have hymnbooks in their pews? I suggest that the 'authentic' musical tradition of both is dominated by cathedrals and monasteries, and so parishes have had to develop their own methods.
    572 x 439 - 108K
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen CharlesW
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,401
    But even in English Parish churches in the 18th & 19th centuries, hymns (as we know them today) were never sung but rarely. Take a look at the West Gallery repertoire (your picture shows a gallery band and quire): What you find are tunes for use with metrical psalms, which were sung before or after services, not during; plus Anthems, and settings of the canticles (Mag, Nunc, Jubilate, Benedictus), all by local musicians, and sung in particular parishes or regions, many with interesting home-grown harmonies. You will also find some books put together by Cathedral musicians for parish use with "correct" music, mainly consisting of the same old Psalm-tunes (like WINCHESTER, OLD HUNDREDTH, FLAVIAN) with an added basso continuo line; and some simple Anthems with organ accompaniment.

    Until the Oxford Movement the only hymnals were those used by the Non-Conformists. Before then, in the Established Church, the words came from three approved sources, the Book of Common Prayer for liturgical texts, and the Sternhold and Hopkins 'Old Version' of the Psalms and the Brady & Tate New Version of the Psalms for the metrical psalmody (words only!), no hymnals as we know them today were published for use by the congregation. Choir books were, but generally the Parish Clerk (who ran the village quire and band) would buy one copy of a published book, and then pass it round to the instrumentalists and singers to copy into their MS tune books. The musical diet of many Cathedrals and collegiate churches were about the same until the late 19th century. (Don't forget that it was Eric Milner White, A.H. Mann and Boris Ord who basically invented King's.)

    It was the Tractarian/Oxford Movement's influence in Liturgical matters coupled with the Methodist hymn tradition that created the 'Anglican Hymn Tradition' that we know today. Here's an interesting article about the flagship Anglican Hymnal: Hymns, Ancient and Modern. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymns_Ancient_and_Modern
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,175
    Long live the PBC
    Thanked by 1MarkB
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,449
    Neither Catholic nor Anglican liturgical books afford a significant place for hymns.

    My Graduale has 13 Hymns and 5 Sequences (it also has the 2 Benedictine) a Sequence is a type of Hymn and we can add in the Gloria. So while Hymns are not numerous in this Liturgical book, when the Hymns are used shows they do not lack significance.

    The Antiphonale, Vesperale, and Nocturnale have many more Hymns! Once again they are significant part of these Liturgical books.
    So why do both Catholic and Anglican churches have hymnbooks in their pews

    Catholic Churches had Hymn books in the pews mainly for use at the various devotions, such as Benediction, May Processions, etc. Of course modern churches have Hymn books to give the congregation something 'active' to do, because too many people these days think that if you are not jumping and shouting, you are not participating.
    I suggest that the 'authentic' musical tradition of both is dominated by cathedrals and monasteries, and so parishes have had to develop their own methods.

    The mediaeval manuscripts do nothing to back up this statement... In more recent years do remind me where George Malcolm was before he was poached by Westminster.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 1,350
    @tomjaw - I agree entirely that the the hymns that are in the liturgical books are of great significance. And I regret that they are often not well treated in parishes, I rarely hear the Gloria sung, (though I did today - in an illicit paraphrase set to Ode to Joy)*. And as I have said on other threads the loss of Devotions other than Mass has diminished us.
    George Malcolm however reinforces my point, St Mary's Clapham while not a monastery is a community of regular clergy. Very different from a parish like the one in which I live, which has never had more than one priest since its foundation in 1863, and is 16 miles from it's neighbouring parish church. It can be compared with those mediaeval parishes with an income of less that £30† per annum, which were exempt from possessing a set of diaconal vestments.
    [ADDED] * I might say we also sang the Asperges, and the Regina Coeli.
    † Please don't quote me on this figure, I may have misremembered, and I don't have the reference to hand.
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,715
    Also consider that parochial life as we tend to conceive it in our time is an artifact of the revival of European demographics and therefore church & state organization around the turn of the last millennium.
    Thanked by 1BruceL