Papal Nuncio Accuses Pope Francis of Covering McCarrick’s Abuse - And Names Names
  • Something remarkable (and brave) the Church has never seen:

    https://bit.ly/2P8i3Ch
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 7,922
    "Eat and drink the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, horribly outraged by ungrateful men. Make reparation for their crimes and console your God."
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 720
    I was wondering if or when any of this would be talked about on this forum.
    Anyone else praying the novena? Today is day 4. If day 3 brought all of this out of the woodwork, who knows what strength and constancy in these prayers will bring.
    Kyrie Eleison.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 7,922
    If you follow the request of Our Lady of Fatima, make reparation according to her specific request.

    Cardinal Burke’s recent plea to the faithful.

    http://voiceofthefamily.com/full-text-cardinal-burkes-historic-call-for-consecration-of-russia/

    The devotion of reparation

    https://www.americaneedsfatima.org/Our-Blessed-Mother/the-five-first-saturdays-devotion.html
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,564
    September 15, Feast of Our Lady of Sorrows.

    NATIONAL "picket the chancery" day, 10AM sharp. Bring your rosary and a copy of the Stabat Mater (the Sequence for the Feast.)
    Thanked by 2CatherineS francis
  • Ken of Sarum
    Posts: 281
    Prayer IS the answer! What has happened to poverty, chastity and obedience? This is all part of the great apostasy or falling away. The chaff is being separated from the grain and readied for the fire.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,388
    I am doing the novena and I am Byzantine. We don't even say the rosary, so I threw in a chotki to go with it. What that means is I don't say the rosary well, but I am saying it for the duration of the novena.

    Aside from the fact that I think Cardinal Burke would have made a better pope, I have considered Francis to be a South American socialist who doesn't particularly like the U.S. Many in S. America like to blame the U.S. for their problems, when the problems lie with their cultures and corrupt governments. I guess it is easier to blame someone else than fix them.

    Yes, all this is really giving the church a black eye and in reality, it is a self-inflicted wound. Some of it may be pointless when some of those cases go back 70 years. Are we going to follow earlier practice and exhume the culprits and drag their bodies through the streets? Hardly effective, and doesn't contribute to a solution. I told our associate pastor this morning that if they throw all the sinners out of the church, no one will be left, including us.

    Appointing better bishops is a necessity. However, some recent appointments don't reassure me. The last thing we need is a USCCB committee proposing solutions. As Cardinal Burke noted, conferences of bishops don't have that authority in the first place.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,388
    BTW, lest you think sex abuse is restricted to Catholic clergy, take a gander at this. It's all nearly unbelievable. I think like many Catholics - add students and faculties in there, too - I have been asleep and not paying attention.

    https://www.bostonglobe.com/arts/music/2018/08/23/colleges-cut-ties-with-acclaimed-boston-area-concert-organist-amid-sex-allegations/EB43oub6zLAYH7xzNnBGbN/story.html
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,564
    And Charles, what IS it with the Houston Grand Opera? First James Levine, now "the" countertenor and his wife?husband? conductor.

    But one expects that with these guys, not with a fleet of Vatican functionaries.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,388
    Dad, it is everywhere. I think I sort of knew that, but it seems worse than I thought. As for the Vatican, we old computer geeks used to say, garbage in, garbage out.
  • Ken of Sarum
    Posts: 281
    As I have tried to warn on many occasions, but no one seemed to believe me, its far far worse than what the vast majority know, want to realize or dare to imagine.

    Jesus led by example and instructed his own to have not purse, staff or coin. To sell ALL, to give away ALL, to give UP everything and everyone and then come and follow Him. To me, the poorer the cleric (especially the leadership, the shepherds), the more they are an example to me, the more I tend to trust them and want to believe in them.

    By their fruits ye shall know them.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,388
    By their fruits ye shall know them.


    True, but anyone running a large diocese or even parish, is going to be handling large sums of money. It goes with the territory. Buildings have to be maintained, priests paid, and if a school is involved, the costs go straight up. However, the sex thing has little to do with money or the lack of it.
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 85
    Unbelievably, I've seen ghastly levels of (including sexual) misbehavior by the ELDERLY CHURCH LADIES at a small parish. Really. Including promoting or committing mortal sin. When the parish priest left under mysterious circumstances the new priest began uncovering the layers of mess. When he removed a few key Problems the ladies complained to the bishop. The bishop sent in an oversight team. The ladies threw the parish priest under the bus. Their lies were so shameless I walked out of the meeting for fear of punching someone in the nose. It was the same kind of basic human nastiness that these scandalous stories in the news today are highlighting. Or that the Mean Girls in high school carry out.

    I'd like to see every bishop and cardinal, guilty or not, wearing sack cloth and sandals and scrubbing bathroom floors for a while.

    I am currently appallingly scandalized, and I think it's going to get worse before it gets better, but I love Jesus and I love the Church and I hope to stick this out no matter how ugly it gets. I've got lots of great music to study meanwhile, and I'm being zealous about chanting the Office or Hours at least once a day, to get more proficient at that. Beauty is a great tonic.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 720
    Apparently, Pope Francis doesn't care to respond to the allegations put forth by Abp. Vigano.

    Instead, he suggested people read the testimony and judge for themselves... is that what clerics are to teach? "Read it, and judge for yourself"? Isn't that the way that more and more Protestant sects come about? =(

    What a mess.
  • This problem is as old as the human race, and it will not go away anytime soon; that is, not for as long as there are people. Priests are not the only predators, only the most disgusting ones. Nor is this limited to men, gay or otherwise. Straight men, and women, too, carry out these predations. Nor are boys the only victims. Girls, too, live in terror of this. This is not a srtictly gay problem, or a male problem, It is a human problem which will not be eradicated by a witch hunt for gays, or not allowiing them in seminaries. I have known numerous homoerotic priests (and other men) who were as sterling as anyone could wish to be influenced by or look up to. In fact, there is something special about them. The relatively few culprits could be just anyone you might know or meet, sit next to in church, uncles and aunts, and other close family members included.

    Everyone should be presumed innocent until proven guilty, but, any priest or prelate found guilty should be summarily and publicly defrocked - and excommunicated at least for a certain period of time. (And that goes as well for those who cover for them and move them around as in a shell game to wreak more havoc on more lives.)

    Throughout this scandal the Church has by and large shown itself to be more upset by the scandal than by the stygian stench of the sin. Perhaps we are beginning to expect something real to be done about it. We will see. I hope that the heat is turned up and applied until real, genuine justice is done and the Church is cleansed from top to bottom of this evil cancer. This entire affair is certainly on a par with mediaeval and renaissance corruption, and the wickedness of Medici popes.

    It is even to the greater shame of the Church that nothing at all would have been done about this situation, it would never have been so much as heard of by anyone, but for the secular press. That it takes an outraged press to bring to light something that the Church should have eradicated long ago simply multiplies the Church's culpability. Here, as with every scandal in history, the Reformation being the biggest one (though this current one certainly rivals it!), if the Church's house had been in order there would have been no food for scandal.
  • pfreese
    Posts: 33
    “Apparently, Pope Francis doesn't care to respond to the allegations put forth by Abp. Vigano.”

    I’m not quite ready to throw His Holiness under the bus yet. I won’t defend his strategy, but I can understand his desire to want everyone to sleep on it and get everyone’s story straight. The Holy Father is an impossibly busy guy, especially during his trip to Ireland, and all the muck that Vigano dropped on them this morning will definitely take some time to process. I’ll also admit a personal chip on my shoulder with Vigano considering he inexplicably squashed the misconduct investigation against my previous archbishop, who was an absolute PR and ethical disaster that literally everyone couldn’t wait to get rid of (and we eventually did a year and a bankruptcy later, no thanks to the him).

    That said this all is massive mess, bigger than anyone wanted to expect. I’m sure the truth of the matter will come out, and God willing those responsible will be held accountable and any liars will be exposed for the deadbeats they are.
    Thanked by 1JL
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,326
    Pardon my crummy Italian (Latin?), but . . . Dimitto subito! Dimitto subito! Dimitto subito!
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 85
    Ditto pfreese. The last place the Pope should respond is off the cuff on a plane, based on rapidly incoming news. He may have a generally folksy style but I'm sure he is well aware of all the politics and intrigue, far more than we are.

    Thanked by 2Elmar CHGiffen
  • Catherine,

    The last place the Pope should respond is off the cuff on a plane


    I completely agree with you, but this opinion has (to the best of my knowledge) never stopped the Holy Father from acting in this way previously.....
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 720
    There's a difference between, "let me have some more time and I will get back to you," and, "I will not say a single word," or "judge for yourself."

    Also, regarding "witch hunts;" referring to anything going on as a "witch hunt" or "scapegoating" is extremely uncharitable and automatically makes it seem like everything related to the conversation is somehow false or part of an unfair agenda.
    The fact of the matter is that quite a lot of post-pubescent boys, seminarians, and priests suffered abuse, as well. Nothing about addressing an in-your-face problem is excusing those who used or abused women or pre-pubescent children, either. But refusing to be direct helps no one, at all.

    Similarly, refusing to say whether or not he was told about McCarrick by anyone (apparently in 2005 and 2007 two priests were paid after accusing McCarrick of abuse... if it's on Wikipedia, how much of a shock could it really have been to the church hierarchy?), or specifically by Vigano is also not helpful to anyone.
    This isn't about "off the cuff" responses - a simple yes or no would suffice.
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,564
    the sex thing has little to do with money


    Wrong. The large-dollar frauds against the Church have usually been perpetrated by homosexual priests who were spending heavily on rent-boys OR to impress their....ahhh......friends.

    You don't find many straight priests with fraud problems, although they do exist.
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,564
    MJO, a couple of nits.....

    First off, 80% of the predators are homosexual. By and large, these guys go after 11-18 y.o. boys, meaning that they are "ephebophiles", technically. Don't believe all the foofoodust about how 'straight' priests are 'just as guilty.' They aren't.

    Secondly, excommunication is NOT a punishment. It is, instead, a 'warning' meant to tell someone to straighten up and fly right. So in your scenario, excomm is mis-placed. It should be first, not last.

    Finally, like you, I admire the bejabbers out of priests (and lay church functionaries) who are homosexual and manage to live morally straight lives. I don't think any Catholic worthy of the name should have a beef with any of them.

    Note well: the new Code of Canon Law allows laymen to slug priests WITHOUT committing sacrilege! Just in time!!
  • Jackson,

    Prescind from the question of whether one is a homosexual (or isn't). Persons aren't condemned by the Church or the catechism or Christ for being, but for doing or failing to do. Hence, whether homosexual men are more prone to misbehavior is utterly beside the point: God can't act against His nature, but you and I can.
  • pfreese
    Posts: 33
    CC, I’m not sure if it’s fair to assume that then-Cardinal Bergoio know about McCarrick’s issues as early as 2005 or 2007, at least I didn’t get that from Vigano’s letter. The two cardinals were in different language groups, and even though they were both frequent fliers at the Vatican then, that place is big enough that you could miss rumors if you weren’t looking for them. It’s entirely reasonable to think that Francis didn’t know until his first official run in with Vigano in 2013. It certainly wouldn’t be great if Francis sat on the issue for five years, but Vigano by then was involved in an increasing number of controversies that would reasonably give someone cause to second guess him.

    I know this might be an unrealistically charitable view of Pope Francis, but I don’t think it’s safe to draw any conclusions yet until more information becomes available. The papal office is probably in the middle of scouring documents from its own archives as well that of the American nunciature and the Archdioceses of Newark and Washington. Doing all that by end of a newsday is a tall order even in ideal circumstances; this whole process could easily up to a week to sort out. If the Holy Father turns out to be the malevolent goat that Vigano is accusing him of being, so be it, but let’s let him have his day in court first.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,564
    @pfreese: The Pope did not "sit on" the issue. He acted--ACTED--precisely against the actions of Benedict XVI, rehabilitating McCarrick, using him as his emissary to Red China (which has produced a VERY unfortunate outcome), and relying on McCarrick for promoting various other members of the magic circle to nice slots in Chicago and Newark.

    There is no question about "what he knew, and when he knew it." The man is flat-out guilty as charged, and showed it beyond the shadow of a doubt in his interchange with CBS News on the plane yesterday.

    By the way, it is also reported that McCarrick & Co. lobbied--successfully--to have Cdl. Burke removed from the Congregation for Bishops.

    Do you seriously think that was just co-incidence?
  • pfreese
    Posts: 33
    Dad, there is at least one big loose end in the McCarrick story right now, which is if Pope Benedict sanctioned him (as Vigano and his deputy have attested), 1) why doesn’t he remember it, 2) why does there appear to be no record of it, 3) why did McCarrick continue to appear publicly in Church business until the end of Benedict’s reign, including with Vigano the Holy Father himself? Barring an unprecedented coverup of these alleged sanctions at the hands of Pope Francis (not impossible mind you), this would amount to a catastrophic breakdown in communication and enforcement that would implicate our beloved Pope Emeritus as well. As for the Cdl Burke demotion, he had made enough public statements demonizing the papacy that Francis could’ve easily made that decision himself.

    Until more information comes out, let’s resist the temptation to engage in conspiracy theories and wait until this sad matter reaches a conclusion, and hopefully one that will come sooner rather than later.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • Chris -
    You say that 'Persons aren't condemned by the Church... for being, but for doing...'

    Well, seminaries' blanket refusal to admit homosexuals (which many if not all do) isn't exactly 'condemnation', is it... - it's just... condemnation... of a sort.... that presumes wickedness where it most likely is not resident. The truth is that for many it matters not a whit what a gay person can do, it only matters what he be.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,956
    Seminarians and priests have to live with one another. Meanwhile they are forbidden to live with women. So just on that level it's a little confusing.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,388
    I just read this.

    Contacted by the Catholic News Agency (CNA), Monsignor Jean-François Lantheaume, the former first counselor at the apostolic nunciature in Washington D.C., declined to give an interview, but affirmed the veracity of the report by Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò.

    “Viganò said the truth. That’s all,” he wrote to CNA.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw janetgorbitz
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 7,922
    This problem is as old as the human race, and it will not go away anytime soon...
    not true:

    Here is what I sent out to all of my children AND friends who may join me this coming Saturday:

    ++++++++++++++

    Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ:

    Time is short.

    If you have been following the latest news about the scandal that has been perpetrated by the lost shepherds of the Catholic Church, then you will understand why I am once again initiating the following dire effort.

    Simply, severe judgement is about to be levied on the church and the world for its sins, especially for the sin of Sodomy which has been practiced by our bishops and priests and also for so many other sins which cries out to heaven for justice. You may think there is nothing you can do, but there is.

    You are invited to participate in the First Five Saturday’s of Reparation to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for the offenses that have been committed against her most Immaculate heart and the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

    In the past Our Lady had me promote the First Saturday Devotions for about ten years in reparation and to console the heart of God which hosted at St. Patrick’s Catholic Church in Baltimore mainly to account for the sin of abortion. I was moved to compose a Mass entitled "The National Outpouring of Grief" which was celebrated and filmed at the Basilica of Mother Ann Seton and was then broadcast on EWTN for a number of years. With my wife we performed the music of that same Mass in the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico City with Dan Lynch and 117 pilgrims from the US and Canada all in reparation.

    Here are the details for this coming Saturday, September 4.

    +++++++++++++++++++

    WHEN: Saturday, September 4, 2018 - 8am Mass
    WHERE: Our Lady of the Mountains Catholic Church (or another Catholic Church local to you if you are out of town)
    WHAT: Reparation to the Immaculate Heart of Mary
    BENEFITS: You will receive these items at no cost:
    1. a brochure explaining this devotion
    2. a hand made rosary

    +++++++++++++++++++


    The First Five Saturdays Devotion: A Short Explanation
    The Five First Saturdays devotion is one of the principal points of the Fatima message. It centers on the urgent need for mankind to offer reparation and expiate for the many injuries that the Immaculate Heart of Mary suffers from the hands of both impious and indifferent men.

    On the First Saturday during 5 Consecutive Months, the Devotion consists of:
    1. Going to Confession,
    2. Receiving the Sacrament of Holy Communion,
    3. Saying five decades of the Rosary,
    4. Meditating for 15 minutes on the mysteries of the Rosary.
    All this offered in REPARATION for the sins of blasphemy and ingratitude committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.


    ******************
    History
    During the third apparition on July 13, 1917, Our Lady revealed that she would come to ask for the consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart and for the Communion of Reparation of the Five First Saturdays. Consequently, she asked for the devotion in 1925 and the consecration in 1929.

    While staying at the House of the Dorothean Sister in Pontevedra, Portugal, Sister Lucia received a vision on December 10, 1925 where the Blessed Mother appeared alongside a Boy who stood over a luminous cloud. Our Lady rested one hand on the Boy’s shoulder while she held on the other hand a heart pierced with thorns around it.

    Sister Lucia heard the Boy say, "Have pity on the Heart of your Most Holy Mother which is covered with thorns with which ingrate men pierce it at every moment with no one to make an act of reparation to pull them out."

    Our Lady expressed her request in the following words, "See, my daughter, My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ingrates pierce me at every moment with blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, make sure to console me and announce that all those who for five months, on the first Saturdays, go to confession, receive Communion, say five decades of the Rosary and keep me company for 15 minutes meditating on the mysteries of the Rosary, with the purpose of making reparation to Me, I promise to assist them at the hour of death with all the graces necessary for the salvation of their souls."

    A few days afterward, Sister Lucia detailed this vision in a letter addressed to Monsignor Manuel Pereira Lopes, her confessor when she resided in the Asylum of Vilar in the city of Oporto, Portugal.

    Why Five Saturdays?

    Sister Lucia’s confessor questioned her about the reason for the five Saturdays asking why not seven or nine. She answered him in a letter dated June 12, 1930. In it she related about a vision she had of Our Lord while staying in the convent chapel part of the night of the twenty-ninth to the thirtieth of the month of May, 1930. The reasons Our Lord gave were as follows:

    The five first Saturdays correspond to the five kinds of offenses and blasphemies committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary. They are:

    a. Blasphemies against the Immaculate Conception
    b. Blasphemies against her virginity
    c. Blasphemies against her divine maternity, at the same time the refusal to accept her as the Mother of all men
    d. Instilling , indifference, scorn and even hatred towards this Immaculate Mother in the hearts of children
    e. Direct insults against Her sacred images
    Let us keep the above reasons firmly in our minds. Devotions have intentions attached to them and knowing them adds merit and weight to the practice.

    +++++++++++++++++

    If you wish to know the full extent of the ominous times of our day more in depth, listen to this video series:

    https://sensusfidelium.us/our-lady-of-revelation-series/

    Once you listen to these videos, you will more fully understand our dire predicament, and what we must do to possibly avert judgement, although it is very very late.

    In the Hearts of JMJ and the Silver Wings of the Dove,

    Francis Koerber
    443.286.0274
    fk@myopus.com

    (cont'd in next post)



  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 7,922
    (continued)

    ++++++++++++++++++++
    Saint Louis de Montfort penned these words in 1712 in La Rochelle, France, four years before his death.

    "Towards the end of the world ... Almighty God and His holy Mother are to raise up saints who will surpass in holiness most other saints as much as the cedars of Lebanon tower above little shrubs.

    These great souls filled with grace and zeal will be chosen to oppose the enemies of God who are raging on all sides. They will be exceptionally devoted to the Blessed Virgin. Illumined by her light, strengthened by her spirit, supported by her arms, sheltered under her protection, they will fight with one hand and build with the other.

    With one hand they will give battle, overthrowing and crushing heretics and their heresies, schismatics and their schisms, idolaters and their idolatries, sinners and their wickedness. With the other hand they will build the temple of the true Solomon and the mystical city of God, namely, the Blessed Virgin. ...

    They will be like thunderclouds flying through the air at the slightest breath of the Holy Spirit. Attached to nothing, surprised at nothing, they will shower down the rain of God's word and of eternal life. They will thunder against sin; they will storm against the world; they will strike down the devil and his followers and for life and for death, they will pierce through and through with the two-edged sword of God's word all those against whom they are sent by Almighty God.

    They will be true apostles of the latter times to whom the Lord of Hosts will give eloquence and strength to work wonders and carry off glorious spoils from His enemies. They will sleep without gold or silver and, more important still, without concern in the midst of other priests, ecclesiastics and clerics. Yet they will have the silver wings of the dove enabling them to go wherever the Holy Spirit calls them, filled as they are, with the resolve to seek the glory of God and the salvation of souls. Wherever they preach, they will leave behind them nothing but the gold of love, which is the fulfillment of the whole law.

    They will have the two-edged sword of the Word of God in their mouths and the bloodstained standard of the Cross on their shoulders. They will carry the crucifix in their right hand and the Rosary in their left, and the holy names of Jesus and Mary on their heart.

    Mary scarcely appeared in the first coming of Christ. ... But in the second coming of Jesus Christ, Mary must be known and openly revealed by the Holy Spirit so that Jesus may be known, loved and served through her."
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,564
    @pfreese: McCarrick certainly "remembers" that he was sanctioned; he simply disobeyed Benedict. Francis ALSO "remembers" McCarrick's sanctions, as testified by Vigano and his aide-de-camp Lantheaume (see above.)

    And of course there is a record of it, but gee, golly-whillikers, Francis won't send a copy to the Associated Press.

    This is not "conspiracy theory." This is conspiracy fact. You will note that I have not been a "Pope Francis Denouncer", although I have made note of his very slippery habits regarding sacraments for divorce/remarried, and the slippery language on the death penalty. That term, "slippery", has become a hallmark of Francis' communication style, so no, it's not a conspiracy "theory."

    Perhaps since you are from Canada, you've never had to parse. every. word. as we had to do here in the States while Bill Clinton was President. Sad to say that that experience is very helpful in reading Francis.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 720
    So, my phone's being weird and I can't seem to load the Morlino links to figure out exactly which he quoted, but here's how a lot of us feel about this, and why refusing to reply at all is ridiculously inappropriate:
    However, I must confess my disappointment that in his remarks on the return flight from Dublin to Rome, the Holy Father chose a course of “no comment,” regarding any conclusions that might be drawn from Archbishop Viganò’s allegations. Pope Francis further said expressly that such conclusions should be left to the “professional maturity” of journalists. In the United States and elsewhere, in fact, very little is more questionable than the professional maturity of journalists. The bias in the mainstream media could not be clearer and is recognized almost universally. I would never ascribe professional maturity to the journalism of the National Catholic Reporter, for example. (And, predictably, they are leading the charge in a campaign of vilification against Archbishop Viganò.)

    http://wdtprs.com/blog/2018/08/bp-morlino-madisondiocese-on-theviganotestimony-the-criteria-for-credible-allegations-are-more-than-fulfilled/
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,388
    This is typical of him. Remember the 4, I think, cardinals who asked for clarifications. Silence. Same here. His history is to do or say something outrageous then clam up. Is it sheer arrogance? You decide.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 720
    Also, apparently Vigano is ready to defend himself against accusations.
    Re Nienstedt: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4788059-Nienstedt-English-Final.html
    Thanked by 1Settefrati93
  • .
  • A pastoral letter from Bishop Lopes addressing this matter was read at all masses at Walsingham this just-past week end. I'm sure that his was not the only one. As it hath been said of old: 'the light shines brightest in darkness'.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,533
    @francis
    You have a few words or phrases awkwardly placed.
    FIVE First Saturdays (ie the devotion is not scheduled only for Jan thru May).
    .. had me promote at SPCC in B (ie church was site of prayer not abortions).
    Thanked by 1francis
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,533
    RE journalist professional maturity ..
    It is almost like chumming the waters for a shark-fest.
    It could be interesting to see how thoroughly they explore the mess.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,388
    I have a set of cassette tapes I picked up at a Church Teaches Forum in Louisville many years ago. It is Bishop Sheen giving a retreat for priests in Dublin, I think. Ireland, anyway. One statement he made has stayed with me. He said to not put your faith in bishops. They are the first to fold or go over in any heresy. He mentioned the English bishops during the reign of Henry VIII as an early example. I suppose that could extend to situations that are not heretical. Anyway, I got his point that bishops are political creatures and are often not reliable in terms of upholding the faith.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Carol
  • pfreese
    Posts: 33
    “I got his point that bishops are political creatures and are often not reliable in terms of upholding the faith.”

    To be fair, that could apply to Vigano too. There’s still a lot we don’t know.
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,224
    @CharlesW

    Yes, the English bishops of 500 years ago... St John Fisher was the only one that stood up for the faith...
    I see from a far larger number a number of US bishops are standing up... (The others must be too busy with their 'friends' or 'baby' as Tobin put it)

    Anyway the following may be of interest to @pfreese...

    “The road to Hell is paved with the bones of priests and monks, and the skulls of bishops are the lamp posts that light the path.” – or –
    “The road to hell is paved with the skulls of erring priests, with bishops as their signposts.”
    St. John Chrysostom attributed.

    “I do not think there are many among Bishops that will be saved, but many more that perish.”
    St. John Chrysostom, Extract from St. John Chrysostom, Homily III on Acts 1:12.

    “The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.”
    St. Athanasius, Council of Nicaea, AD 325 attributed.

    “The road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.”
    Saint John Eudes, attributed.

    “It must be observed, however, that if the faith were endangered, a subject ought to rebuke his prelate even publicly.”
    St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica II, II, q. 33, a. 45

    “Augustine says in his Rule: ‘Show mercy not only to yourselves, but also to him who, being in the higher position among you, is therefore in greater danger.’ But fraternal correction is a work of mercy. Therefore even prelates ought to be corrected.”
    St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica II, II, q. 33, a. 4, Sed Contra.

    “It is better that scandals arise than the truth be suppressed.”
    Pope St. Gregory the Great

    “But, when necessity compels, not those only who are invested with power of rule are bound to safeguard the integrity of faith, but, as St. Thomas maintains: ‘Each one is under obligation to show forth his faith, either to instruct and encourage others of the faithful, or to repel the attacks of unbelievers.’”
    Pope Leo XIII
  • Ken of Sarum
    Posts: 281
    Trust, hope and faith in GOD alone!
    Thanked by 3CCooze Carol CHGiffen
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,564
    There’s still a lot we don’t know.


    Unfortunately, NONE of what we don't know is pleasant. We in Milwaukee have plenty of experience with "what we didn't know," and what we NOW know is that the lavender mafia-network is huge.
  • "It is better that scandals arise then that truth be suppressed.
    Amen and amen!

    That it takes a scandal to rid us of an evil is itself scandalous.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw Carol CHGiffen
  • Carol
    Posts: 326
    This is all so sad. I feel so sorry for all the holy priests who are living up to their vows while suffering through this because of those priests who have sinned by commission or omission.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,388
    In talking with my associate pastor last Sunday, the subject of the priest in Indiana who was beaten came up. My associate mentioned being apprehensive about going in public dressed as a priest. Can you blame him? He's a good guy and may St. Michael protect him.
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • pfreese
    Posts: 33
    I’ve read up on recent developments in this story but I still question Vigano’s central claim of sanctions against McCarrick during Benedict’s papacy (that were thus undone by Pope Francis four years later). If those sanctions were legit and had a (yet to be discovered) paper trail, why were they ignored by basically everyone? It’s been well documented that that McCarrick continued to carry out business on behalf of the Church during those years, sometimes even with Vigano himself. This is also important because Vigano was then McCarrick’s ordinary by proxy, since non-ordinary Cardinals report directly to the Vatican via their nuncio. I even remember Vigano strolling down the main aisle of my cathedral with McCarrick (not ten feet away from me) at the installation of our then-new archbishop in 2016, three years after he says he demanded that Pope Francis remove him. For someone who claims to have spent the better part of a decade trying to get rid him, he didn’t appear to have many qualms about appearing with him in public.

    Who knows, I could be wrong in all this, but I still think it’s way too early to conclude that the sky is falling, nor will we be in a position to do so until Pope Francis and the Vatican release their end of these events, and I’m sure they will. Though as I’ve said earlier, it could well take a few days with all the records that need to be dug up and cats that need to be herded. This isn’t a matter of having faith in our leaders, this is a matter of due process. Until then, let’s check our schadenfreude at the door and pray this whole matter has a just and swift conclusion.
    Thanked by 2Carol MarkS
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,388
    I haven't had much faith in some of these leaders for a long time.