Why not parallel organum?
  • lmassery
    Posts: 422
    I've been following this forum for 6 years and attended 2 colloquiums and have never encountered anyone using or advocating parallel organum. Why not?! It is the bridge between plainchant and renaissance polyphony, both of which we advocate. I'm perplexed by the silence on the issue. It is unmistakably catholic-sounding. Personally I love the sound of it! Listen to this recording at around 22 minutes. What am I missing? Is there anyone out there using parallel organum with a schola? I would love to hear from you.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ElL8hdQD_4
  • francis
    Posts: 10,811
    hmmmm... recording seems to be silent
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Two things:

    One) What recording? You don't have a link.

    Two) What was the last Colloquium you went to? The last two have had daily seminars on Organum (OR-gan-um) given by Dr. Mahrt - I participated in this years session, and it was excellent.

    I know that there are many hear who advocate for use of organal techniques: I myself have used, liturgically, straightforward parallel organum, and florid organa from the Notre Dame school. Many use drones/isons and other techniques.

    I am sure that, if I recall properly, M. Jackson Osborne, Melofluent, and Dr. Mahrt use drones, isons, faburden, and organum.

    The difficulty with organum is that it requires near perfect tuning, which requires a lot of practice. The out-of-tune fifths, fourths, seconds, etc., of equal-temperament do not work with organum.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • lmassery
    Posts: 422
    Sorry - recording posted. I was not at either of the last 2 colloquiums - I think I went in 2010 and 2011. I can imagine tuning parallel organum is difficult and needs precision, but such is the case with unison singing and polyphony as well.
    Thanked by 2Daniel Bennett Page Salieri
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,795
    On the contrary, I think many of us use organum at the octave routinely ;-) and I love adding fifths and twelfths to the last repletion of our 3-fold alleluia.

    What 22' into the recording has is what I would call faulxbourdon. We've done it once to make an anthem of a chant from the 14c. Office of Dewi Sant. Such singing "on the book" is sometimes advocated for the Ockeghem Requiem's Sanctus & Agnus; singing like this routinely might well require a hand signal for basses to sing the octave!
    Vir beatus (St David) - Full Score.pdf
    38K
    Thanked by 1lmassery
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Yes, I concur with Salieri and Richard M. (thanks for the mention, we actually did chant in organum once this post-summer Ordinary Time, I'd have to look it up.) But I do recall organum either at SLC I and Indy 2014 being employed by one of the scholas (If not Mahrt, then Cole..) because I remember the sublime reaction I experienced at the time. There are written organums of common chants (Veni creator...) that Proulx (and others?) penned into their arrangements that I know are in my choral library. I am unaware of organum utilizing anything other than perfect intervals. Adding or employing another interval or voice is a beast of a different color, such as Richard dubs fauxbourdon or parallels at the 12th.
    Thanked by 1lmassery
  • lmassery
    Posts: 422
    Melo - I was thinking only of perfect intervals myself. I can imagine a parallel line on Veni Creator sounding incredible. I'll have to try some simple chants this way
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,411
    There have been places... it seems to me that I read of Sicily and some others at some point in history where there was organum at the second at certain penitential seasons of the year. I know that I encountered this years ago. but can't remember the details.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    organum at the second at certain penitential seasons of the year

    And then they invented "choir rehearsal".
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • jczarn
    Posts: 65
    Some recordings of various types of organum from the 2014 Colloquium:
    http://music.dierschow.com/2014Colloquium/3Mass/Alleluia.mp3
    http://music.dierschow.com/2014Colloquium/4Mass/Gradual.mp3
    This one has a mix of organum, fauxbourdon, falsobordone, faburden etc.
    http://music.dierschow.com/2014Colloquium/3Vespers/Magnificat.mp3

    I recorded all of the daily sessions from this breakout group with Dr. Mahrt and sent them to Carl. If they'd be of any value, perhaps someone could ask him nicely to put them up.
    Thanked by 3lmassery CHGiffen JonathanKK
  • stulte
    Posts: 355
    To answer the original post and echo some things others have said, organum is difficult to do well. I remember hearing a parish choir attempt it during the introit at Mass a few years ago. They started by doing normal chant and then organum at the 4th during the psalm verse. My reaction was like, "What is THAT!?" (not in a good way). The choir (which was doing so well with plainsong just moments before) was clearly attempting something too ambitious. It was distracting.

    On the other hand, if we want to get technical, parallel organum at the octave is sung regularly and few bat an eyelash at it.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I learned this summer that parallel organum at the fifth is much easier that at the fourth. If you want to know why theorists considered the harmonic fourth a dissonant interval, try singing organum at the fourth.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn Adam Wood
  • lmassery
    Posts: 422
    Salieri - do you mean it should be a 5th below or above?
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Perfect 4/5 parallels split between the men and the women/trebles can help alleviate tuning issues, I've found.
    Of course, Imassery, the old joke remains true, Catholic worship music started its steep decline when the first monk thought of singing the chant the p4/5 parallel to his stall-mates. It's a good joke, but it does illustrate some of the pitfalls of "innovation."
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,189
    According to the description of (parallel) organum in the 9th century treatise Scolica enchiriadis (itself a compendious commentary on Musica enchiriadis), the original chant was maintained as the upper voice, or vox principalis, with the secondary voice, or vox organalis, pitched below the upper voice, usually down a perfect fourth.

    Of course, parallel organum at the (sub)octave and (sub)fifth (or twelfth) are not uncommon. Also, it was not uncommon for both voices to begin on the same note (unison) with the vox organalis staying on the initial pitch until the vox principalis reached the desired interval (by what is known as "oblique" organum and then to proceed in parallel from that point, with a similar procedure in reverse followed at the end of the chant so that the voices returned to a unison final. Isons (or drones) were also employed, as well as other techniques that were subsequently developed.

    My own SATB setting of Veni, veni, Emmanuel has both isons and, in one verse, parallel organum at a perfect 12th below the plainchant. The score is attached as well as an MP3 recording by the English Seminar Choir of Basel, Switzerland, from their performance an 11th century Romanesque basilica. The verse with the parallel organum begins at the 3m40s mark.
    Giffen-Veni veni Emmanuel.pdf
    202K
    O come, o come Emmanuel-EngSemCh-96kbps.mp3
    5M
    Thanked by 4JonathanKK M. Jackson Osborn lmassery tomjaw
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Salieri - do you mean it should be a 5th below or above?

    Yes.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Salieri, that is so clever an answer. All I could think of is Abbot and Costello's immortal "Who's on first" routine.
    P5 down is the P4....what? P5 up is P5...who?.....What's at second*, Who's on first....Nevermind!....He's on third!!! ....who?.....Who's on first.....Who?.....
    *second is for Jackson.
  • lmassery
    Posts: 422
    CH that sounds so cool!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,779
    We are lucky to have an expert, Christopher Hodkinson (http://www.scholagregoriana.org/), when we have chant weekends / workshops we usually sing a few pieces to some form of Organum / fauxbourdon. he uses either 4th's or 5th's depending on the chant.
    We are in the process of arranging a chant day /weekend on this topic... I will post detail here when arrangements have been finallised.
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