Book Review: The Suicide of Altering the Faith in the Liturgy (now including other comments)
  • The whole world will receive spiritual benefits as well as temporal benefits from what is hoped will soon be a widespread return to the Latin Tridentine Mass of all times.


    /Widespread return/ seems hyperbolic; so does /suicide/ in the title. The language used is literally self-destructive.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I do believe the world will see a widespread return once we get beyond this period of super confusion.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    A quote from the introduction:

    It is not, as some have argued, that no one be low the rank of Pope may change the customary rites into new rites, and that such new rites would be illicit unless the Pope approves them. First of all, the canon in question does not deal with the matter of who may change the rites into new rites, but rather it very clearly condemns the proposition that the rites can be changed by any one (including the Pope), i.e. “by any ecclesiastical pastor whosoever”. The Roman Pontiffs solemnly professed (tibi profiteor beate Petre) since the pontificate of St. Agatho (678-681) that it was their duty, and therefore they sol - emnly swore (quam professionem meam ... propria manu subscripsi et tibi, beate Petre ... iureiurando sinceriter optuli) to “guard undefiled the discipline and rite of the Church as I have found it handed down by my holy predecessors, to preserve undiminished the state of the Church and ... to diminish or change nothing of the preserved tradition which I have received from my most up right predecessors, or to allow any novelty.”9
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    more from intro:

    Since, as has been demonstrated above, adherence to the traditional liturgy is required by the dogma of the faith, and hence, as the Popes have professed in their oath of coronation, pertains to Divine Law as divina et celestia mandata: to break with the traditional liturgy of the Church would, therefore, constitute a schismatic act. Even a pope who would “not wish personally to follow the universal customs and rites of the Church” or would “change all the ecclesiastical ceremonies”, by doing so would “go against the universal customs and rites of the Church” and would cease to “be in proper communion with the Church”, and would therefore “fall into schism”.13 In obedience to the infallible teaching of the Church, Pope St. Pius V declared in Quo Primum: Let all every where adopt and observe what has been handed down by the Holy Roman Church, the Mother and Teacher of the other churches, and let Masses not be sung or read according to any other formula than that of this Missal published by Us. In the next sentence, Pope St. Pius V decreed: This ordinance applies hence forth, now, and for ever, through out all the provinces of the Christian world, to all Patriarchates, Cathedral Churches, Colleges and Parish Churches, be they secular or religious, both of men and of women, even of Military Orders, and Churches or Chapels with out a specific congregation in which conventual Masses are sung aloud in choir or read privately in accord with the rites and customs of the Roman Church. This Missal is to be used by all Churches ...
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Continuousbass:

    Before you lay claim to the destructiveness of the title, here is where the quote originated:

    "Suppose, dear friend, that Communism [one of "the errors of Russia" mentioned in the Message of Fatima] was only the most visible of the instruments of subversion to be used against the Church and the traditions of Divine Revelation...

    "I am worried by the Blessed Virgin's messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the Faith, in her liturgy, her theology and her soul. ...

    "I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject her ornaments and make her feel remorse for her historical past.

    "A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God. In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them, like Mary Magdalene weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask, "Where have they taken Him?" (emphasis added)
    ... Pope Pius XII

    Quoted in the book Pius XII Devant L'Histoire, pp. 52-53 (by Msgr. Georges Roche)


    more about the title here:

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1346700/posts
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    more from the intro:

    Furthermore, by these presents (these laws), by Apostolic Authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is here after to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgement, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor that superiors, Administrators, Canons, Chaplains, and other Secular Priests, or Religious, of whatever order or by whatever title designated, be obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than enjoined by Us: [here St. Pius V makes it in disputably clear that these are not mere ecclesiastical laws that can be revoked, but on the contrary, they are of their very nature permanent and irreformable, and there fore the Supreme Pontiff solemnly and infallibly declares ex cathedra:] •... we like-wise [by apostolic authority] statute and declare that no one whosoever is to be forced or coerced to alter this Missal and that this present document can not ever be revoked or modified at any time, but remains always valid and retains its full force.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Francis, dude, you gotta be more careful about what you read!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Kathy:

    With which part of this (so far) do you disagree?
  • Hyperbole is a showstopper for me, it discounts the premise that widespread change is a-comin'. Is it? Bring it on. Take the shroud of blood off. If the liturgy changes and a crisis results, it's happened before; the people will transit from beginning to end.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    continuousbass

    The liturgy HAS changed and the crisis has OVERTAKEN US... and I beg to differ; it has never happened in the history of the liturgy until recently.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    The main logical problem is historical. The Roman Missal was changed several times before Vatican II. Don't forget that Summorum Pontificum gives wider permission to use the 1962 Missal.
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  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    The main theological problem is one that the extreme liberals have in common with the extreme conservatives, and which our beloved Pope Emeritus named "Hermeneutic of Rupture," which is aka Hermeneutic of Discontinuity.
  • Our expression within the liturgy has changed many times, but the sacrifice remains the sacrifice. of what we mere humans do regarding it, the core of faith remains the worship of God thru Christ's ultimate sacrifice. I guess the Novus Ordo was one way to bring more faithful to the truth thru scripture, beyond language. Wear the beer-goggles of history and find that the Church was battling corruption during the early Tridentine era, and the change of V2 set us upon the next battle. Gird yourself with faith, as the saying goes.
  • I'd agree crisis has overtaken us, us being musicians tasked with playing lousy tunes that sprang out of the V2 aftermath. Take rock n roll mass for example. The clarity of the word is lost.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    This was Pope Emeritus Benedict's teaching on this subject, in his very first Christmas address to the Roman Curia http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2005/december/documents/hf_ben_xvi_spe_20051222_roman-curia_en.html
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Well, I think the main problem that our Pope Emeritus has highlighted as regards to liturgy is that the construction of the Novus Ordo violated the centuries-long process of organic development in the liturgy since, foor the first time in the Church, we had a liturgy constructed as it were, by a committee of experts sitting around a table.

    That's basically the concept Pope Benedict has talked about many times before he was elected Pope, and it was as such the core of his criticism of the reform----one which he labeled a "fabrication," "an artificial construct," and "a banal, on-the-spot product."

    Of particular importance is the fact that he said in his own autobiography that he was convinced the crisis in the Church is due, in his words, "to the collapse of the liturgy."

    So, we now get to a second point: what did Arbp. Bugnini mean when he said in March of 1965 in the L'Osservatore Romano that we must strip away from the liturgy everything which is unacceptable to the Protestants?

    Why did Cardinal Ottaviani, the Prefect of the Sacred Congregation of the Faith, state in the cover letter to his critique of the New Mass that "it represents in whole and in part a striking departure" from the theology of the sacrifice of the Mass as expressed by the Council of Trent?

    I hardly think Cardinals Ratzinger and Ottaviani were extreme conservatives engaging in the Hermeneutic of Discontinuity.

    They asked legitimate questions that deserve answers and no bishop, priest or layperson who asks the same type of questions should be labeled as someone not thinking with the mind of the Church.

    Now we get to another legitimate question, and that is the one being asked by Francis: Did Cardinal Pacelli warn about the reform of the Mass, or not, before he became Pope Pius XII?

    Don't forget that this quote that Francis is citing is supposed to have come from Msgr. George Roche's biography of Pope Pius XII, and I've never heard anyone dispute its authenticity.

    Think about it: "I am worried by the warnings by Sr. Lucy of Fatima against the suicide of altering the faith in the Church's liturgy, her theology, her ornaments, and her very soul, etc."

    Hmmmm. Could it be possibly be true when one thinks about what happened in the decades after the Council? Is it so far-fetched from our lived experience in the post-Vatican II era?

    Is anyone who brings up the subject to be treated with suspicion when Pope St. John Paul II himself warned against "the silent apostasy" of our times and Pope Benedict said, "Faith is like a flame which is in danger of going out"?

    How about the Bishop of Fatima who said, in 1984, "What is worse, nuclear war, or the loss of faith of a whole continent?

    Just askin'. A blessed Trinity Sunday to you all.
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    Francis, you really need to select better stuff to read. Try "A New Song for the Lord: Faith in Christ in Liturgy Today" by Joseph Ratzinger.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    kenstb

    I will definitely keep you all thinking and not ignoring the truth or the difficult things! We cannot afford to be lulled to sleep and must keep vigilant about our faith. Let's keep those oil lamps trimmed and ready!

    So will JulieColl (she nailed it above) and a lot of others on this forum.

    Thank you JulieColl... God bless us in The Name of the Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost!

    Kathy:

    I will read that one and get back to you.

    So, don't think the liturgy has been changed before. It has not. That is why it was called rupture.
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  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    I look forward to hearing your thoughts, Francis. Thank you.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Kathy:

    I read it.

    You won't need MY thoughts. It has all been very well thought through here within the same book. Let me know how this reasoning hits you.

    www.alteringliturgy.com/images/stories/pdf/book1/ch4/ch4.pdf

    “What death more fatal for souls than the freedom of error!” said St. Augustine.


    Some things from that chapter:

    In the Syllabus of Pius IX, we read the solemn and infallible* condemnation of the following errors: 77. In our time, it is no longer useful that the Catholic religion be considered as the only religion of the State, to the exclu-sion of all the other cults. 78. Therefore, it is with reason that, in some Catholic coun-tries, the law has provided that the foreigners who go there enjoy the public exercise of their particular forms of worship there. 79. It is false that the civil liberty of all the cults and the full power left to all to manifest openly and publicly all their thoughts and all their opinions, throws the peoples more eas-ily into corruption of morals and of the mind, and propagates the pestilence of Indifferentism.


    and

    The human person does not possess the moral right to transgress the commandments of God, since, in issuing the commandments, God establishes a moral obligation for the human race to observe them. The first commandment sets forth the obligation to worship God according to the Catholic faith and religion,157 and therefore the refusal to observe this commandment constitutes the sin of infi-delity.158 A ‘right’ to religious liberty, there fore, does not pertain to the Deposit of Faith and is not founded on di vine revelation, but is contrary to the Faith and is heretical.159 “He who believes and is baptised shall be saved, but he who does not believe shall be con-demned.” – St. Mark, 16:16.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Francis,

    Interestingly, the Pope Emeritus did not contrast the "hermeneutic of rupture" [a bad way to read] with the "hermeneutic of continuity" but with a "hermeneutic of reform."

    He describes the hermeneutic of reform as "continuity and discontinuity on different levels."

    His view is realistic, hopeful, and trusting, believing in the Lord Jesus who promised--promised, on the night He was betrayed--that He would not leave us orphans. Who promised Peter that the jaws of death should not prevail.

    Regarding reform, consider that in 1571, the universal obligatory use of the Roman Missal was an innovation!

    There is a word, by the way, for people who believe that a theoretical "true Church" lost its way at some historical moment and no longer subsists in the concrete Catholic Church. They are known as "Protestants."
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Pius V had no more authority to mandate a missal for all time, than the popes who preceded or succeeded him. What one mandated, another could change, and popes have tinkered with the liturgy ever since Pius V went against Tradition by tinkering with it himself. He set a bad precedent and a dangerous example.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I do not believe the "reform of the reform" is going to hold. I believe the whole NO thing will eventually be corrected... whenever that will be.

    The gates of hell will not prevail, but at present we are in a time of great chastisement in which God has allowed us the shepherds we deserve, not the ones He would prefer us to have. This is reflected in the numerous messages that Our Lady has brought to us in her warnings over the past 150 years, messages that are approved by the Church.

    On May 13, 1982, Pope John Paul II asked in his sermon, “Can the Mother with all the force of the love that She fosters in the Holy Spirit and desires everyone’s salvation, can She remain silent when She sees the very basis of Her children’s salvation undermined?” The Pope then answered his own question, “No, She cannot remain silent.” Here the Pope himself tells us that the Fatima Message concerns Our Lady’s warning that the foundation of our salvation is being undermined. Then, on May 13, 2000, the Pope in his sermon during the beatification ceremony warned the faithful to beware of the tail of the dragon, and he cited Chapter 12 verses 3 and 4 of the Book of the Apocalypse. The Book of the Apocalypse, Chapter 12 verse 4 speaks of the tail of the dragon sweeping one-third of the stars from heaven, which is commonly understood to mean one-third of the Catholic Clergy.

    On November 11, 1984, Cardinal Ratzinger, head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, gave an interview in Jesus magazine, a publication of the Pauline Sisters. The interview is entitled "Here is Why the Faith is in Crisis," and was published with the Cardinal's explicit permission. In this interview, Cardinal Ratzinger revealed that he had read the Third Secret of Fatima and that the Secret refers to "dangers threatening the faith and the life of the Christian and therefore (the life) of the world."

    Cardinal Ratzinger said in the same interview that the Secret also refers to "the importance of the Novissimi [the Last Times / the Last Things]" and that "If it is not made public, at least for the time being, it is in order to prevent religious prophecy from being mistaken for a quest for the sensational ..." He also revealed that "the things contained in this ‘Third Secret’ correspond to what has been announced in Scripture and has been said again and again in many other Marian apparitions, first of all that of Fatima.

    The 1571 Missal did not break from the ORGANIC development of the traditional liturgy. There were different flavors of the same liturgy throughout the Christian world, but they all had the same basis and organic structure. The problem with the NO, as JulieColl mentioned above was that it was a complete fabrication synthetically assembled APART from the organic roots of the liturgy that has developed over hundreds of years and more problematically, with fabricators that included a team of protestants. As she also mentioned, Ratzinger and Gamber both speak about this.

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/davies.htm

    It is important to know the faith intricately so one can discern what is true and what is false because modernism has spread like a cancer within the walls of the church. Time will tell how this all plays out, but we must keep our wits, continue to receive the sacraments and pray for Our Lady's protection.

    Charles:

    On doctrine and dogma, when a Pope speaks ex cathedra it cannot be changed, forever. All the popes took it upon themselves and vowed to protect the Mass (for 600 years or so) in their ceremony of coronation. That is how serious this is. Disciplines can be changed and altered, but not doctrine and dogma, and that is where anathama comes into play.

  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Just a couple of quick points, Kathy:

    1) I thought the whole point of Pope Benedict XVI's "hermeneutic of continuity" talk to the Roman Curia was to emphasize the continuity between what was and is believed in the pre- and post- Vatican II Church. So, how can continuity go together with discontinuity and still be the same thing?

    In other words, are you saying that Pope Benedict XVI was emphasizing that there is a correct Catholic understanding of the term "hermeneutic of discontinuity"? I don't think you're saying that, but I just want to double-check. :)

    2) As regards the Mass, I think it's helpful to remember that the traditional orders like FSSP, etc., who are in full communion with Rome, are only required to affirm the validity of the New Mass and not that every single change introduced has been good and beneficial for the Church.

    For instance, Cardinal Ratzinger himself was known in his writings to be very critical of Mass versus populum and a strong proponent of Mass celebrated ad orientem. Likewise,
    we too have the full right to believe that certain changes have in fact been positively harmful and work and pray for their reversal.

    Michael Davies was someone who pointed out very clearly that many of the changes introduced by Arbp. Bugnini paralleled almost exactly those of Arbp. Cranmer at the time of the English Reformation, and, in fact, have been disastrous for the Church.

    When Michael Davies died, Cardinal Ratzinger had this to say:

    “I have been profoundly touched by the news of the death of Michael Davies. I had the good fortune to meet him several times and I found him as a man of deep faith and ready to embrace suffering. Ever since the Council he put all his energy into the service of the Faith and left us important publications especially about the Sacred Liturgy. Even though he suffered from the Church in many ways in his time, he always truly remained a man of the Church. He knew that the Lord founded His Church on the rock of St Peter and that the Faith can find its fullness and maturity only in union with the successor of St Peter. Therefore we can be confident that the Lord opened wide for him the gates of heaven. We commend his soul to the Lord’s mercy.


    So, in closing, we need to distinguish between a criticism of the reform that is perfectly in line with Catholic teaching (i.e., Davies, Gamber, Ratzinger, Reid, etc.) and those traditionalists who go too far and step outside the accepted boundaries of what is really a very wide latitude given to us by the Church in these matters.

    God bless,

    Julie
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  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Hi, Julie.

    A resounding Amen! to your last paragraph.

    Regarding discontinuity, I think the most important thing to realize is that it is one and the same Church that remains, during all of its necessary reforms. So for example, as the Church became more and more aware of the Real Presence and developed a rich devotional practice of Benediction, there is a way in which you could call the new practices "discontinuous" with what had been before. But that doesn't mean that the Church that does these new things has experienced any kind of rupture from its past.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    More specifically rebutting Charles and Kathy's claim that we received a new rite in 1571:

    In 1570, Pope St. Pius V promulgated the revised and codified Roman Rite of Mass with the Bull Quo Primum. He did not promulgate a new rite, but he merely restored and codified the immemorial Roman Rite.15 The Council of Trent had no intention to institute a new liturgy. The Council of Trent (1545-1563), Michael Davies observes, did indeed appoint a commission to examine the Roman Missal, and to revise and restore it according to the custom and rite of the Holy Fathers. The new missal was eventually promulgated by Pope St. Pius V in 1570 with the Bull Quo Primum. Pope Pius V did not institute a new rite of Mass. Davies has demonstrated this, citing eminent authorities:... Father David Knowles, who was Britain's most distinguished scholar until his death in 1974, pointed out that: The Missal of 1570 was indeed the result of instructions given at Trent, but it was, in fact, as regards the Ordinary, Canon, Proper of the time and much else a replica of the Roman Missal of 1474, which in its turn repeated in all the essentials the practice of the Roman Church of the epoch of Innocent III, which itself derived from the usage of Gregory the Great and his successors of the seventh century. In short, the Missal of 1570 was, in all essentials, the usage of the main stream of medieval European liturgy which included England and all its rites.16


    and furthermore...

    Although the rite continued to develop after the time of St. Gregory, Father Fortescue explains that: All later modifications were fitted into the old arrangement, and the most important parts were not touched. From, roughly, the time of St. Gregory we have the text of the Mass, in order and arrangement, as a sacred tradition that no one has ventured to touch except in unimportant details.17 So our Mass goes back with out essential change, to the age when it developed out of the oldest liturgy of all. It is still redolent of that liturgy, of the days when Caesar ruled the world ... The final result of our enquiry is that, in spite of unresolved problems, in spite of later changes, there is not in Christendom another rite so venerable as ours.18 The Roman Rite of Mass, as Jungmann says,19 grew out of the apostolic traditions, and the Roman Canon, according to the Council of Trent, “is made up from the words of Our Lord from apostolic traditions, and from devout instructions of the holy pontiffs.”20 The Roman Rite developed in such a manner that the basic structure of the rite came to be enriched and adorned with components borrowed from the Gallican liturgy. It was truly and fully a profession of the faith of the Catholic Church because it was the product, the offspring of that faith and therefore “The entire teaching of the Church is contained in the liturgy.”21 Whence it follows, that “the law of prayer establishes the law of belief.”22 The Council Fathers of Trent never dreamed of creating a new rite of Mass, nor did the majority of Council Fathers of Vatican II:23 They knew only too well that “Liturgies are not made, they grow in the devotion of the centuries.”24
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    and going on:

    Elaborating on this theme, Davies makes the important observation that: At no time in the history of the Roman Rite was there ever any question of a pope setting up a commission to compose new prayers and ceremonies. The ceremonies evolved almost imperceptibly, and in every case, codification, that is the incorporation of these prayers into the liturgical books, followed upon their development ... particular prayers and ceremonies were found in the Missal because they were being used in the Mass and not vice versa.25 This was pointed out by the Catholic Bishops of England in their Vindication of the Bull “Apostolicæ Curæ”: That in earlier times local churches were permitted to add new prayers and ceremonies is acknowledged ... But that they were also permitted to subtract prayers and ceremonies in previous use, and even to remodel the existing rites in a most drastic manner, is a proposition for which we know of no historical foundation, and which appears to us as absolutely incredible.26
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    A particular missal does not rise to the level of ex cathedra dogma. A missal is a handbook of rubrics, and many of the other rites have orders of celebration practices, as well. There is nothing inherently divinely revealed about the Roman Rite as codified by Pius V. It is a guide to current western liturgical practice at the time. Five centuries earlier, that missal could have just as easily been condemned as deviating from Tradition. There is great effort among extreme traditionalists - if you consider tradition as being only 5 or so centuries old - to elevate that particular missal to the same level as scripture. They are not equal. I look around and don't see any groundswell of public opinion demanding reinstating the older missal. It seems to me to be mostly traditionalist wishful thinking. That the EF exists I have no problem with. However, I think the audience for it is limited and will likely remain so.

    From an eastern perspective, much of the problem is that westerners have placed too much power and prestige in the office of the papacy. You can't give the kind of unlimited power accountable to no one that is invested in that office, then complain because a given pope used the power in ways that don't suit you, as evidently did Paul VI with his NO missal.

    Does the NO missal have anything to do with Fatima? Who knows. There is so much hysteria spread by crazy cultists about that apparition - can you say, "Gruner," anyone - it is nearly impossible to determine what is fact and what is made-up ideology.

    I don't see the problems in the Church as caused by a particular missal. I see a loss of faith that has been building for a century or more and which was alive, well and flourishing well before anyone even heard of Paul VI or his NO missal.
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  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    Looking at the events of 1570, we should be very careful to make sure we fully understand the events and their context... I am not fully qualified to explain this but I do have a good idea of what I do not know and have not researched, so a few points on what I do know.

    1. The Middle ages had given the Church a vast range of Calendars with Propers and Offices to go with them.
    2. Many of these Propers and Offices were only used in one place, for instance some Sequences were uniquely used in just one or two churches.
    3. Many feasts had multiple Propers and Offices, each used in different place across Europe.
    4. The Ordinary of the Mass was similar if not identical across Western Europe, of course the Dominican Rite among others had greater differences but the CORE was very similar.
    5. Trent was an attempt to reverse the heretical ideas that were running rife, and to unify the differences to form one common Rite.
    6. Ancient Rites were unaffected by this, and are allowed to continue.
    7. More recent innovations were banned, unless proper authorisation was found.
    8. The communications networks of the time meant that these changes took place over many years! not over night. Also it allowed places that had fallen away to the heretics, to be converted by priests using a common Rite with a common calendar rather the peculiar Rites used before. For a priest trained in Rome the Calendars used in Northern Britain would be unknown and even unknowable. N.B. The printing press was not yet in wide-spread use.
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  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    CharlesW
    I quite agree that the interference in the Roman Rite over the last 200 years has been misguided if not worse at times... Sadly I do not think that we as a church have the skills to go back to a less central style.
    At the moment we have a vast variety of Ordinaries and styles of celebration used in the Catholic Church, how can this be right Catholic means in one sense universal. At the moment we have chalk and cheese both being described as "Catholic Masses".

    I feel that only a Trent style affirmation can solve this problem, although the biological option may have a effect before Rome will take action. Here in England 97% of children attending the N.O. Mass and attending Catholic schools lapse from the Faith before they leave school! Meanwhile Homeschoolers a bringing up large numbers of children who will only know the E.F. and have been brought up to place their Faith as the centre of their lives. Who will be the majority in 10 years time? 20 years... I have 5 children under 9 years old with number 6 on the way, and we are one of the smaller families, but many are following this example as we have followed others. I am really looking forward to seeing what the Church here will be like in 10 years let alone 30!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    So true, Tomjaw. I haven't seen any figures on it - and relying on what one's friends are doing can distort perceptions - but what percentage of Catholics homeschool? I am thinking it would be a small percentage, if reliably measured.

    Someone recently told me - again, not measured so its accuracy may be questioned - that the fastest growing religion in the U.S. is Islam, not any brand of Christianity. What will this do to what the Church will be like in 10 years?
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Francis, I believe that you have to support your implicit argument that "the liturgy IS doctrine (and/or) dogma." Although we are inclined to agree on many issues, I am unable to accept your argument (it's not a new one to me) that 'no pope can change the Missal of 1570.'
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    One more thing: you are also arguing 'post hoc, propter hoc.' We can ALL agree that there is less apparent observation of Catholicism in the last 50 years. But one can also argue (post/propter style) that the emergence of the Pill, or the general prosperity of the West, has led to this appearance (or reality) of far less religious living. (So happens that this era also follows allowing women the vote in the US).



  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Dear Forum and Forum Squatters:

    Please know that this is not MY argument, (although I am very interested to know the truth about everything presented herein), as it is verbatim the scholarly work of Father Paul L. Kramer, B.Ph., S.T.B., Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas (Angelicum), Rome, 1972-1978. With that said, know that I am not the one presenting the argument, I am simply passing onto you what MAY indeed be the truth! (as revealed through the mind and heart of someone who knows the intracies)

    Pope Leo XIII explained in his constitution Orientalium Dignitas that the Church “allows and makes provision for some innovations in exterior forms, mostly when they are in conformity with the ancient past.” Clearly Pope Leo was referring mainly to restorations. Clearly, it is the duty of the pope to regulate the liturgy, but it does not pertain to his office to suppress it and create new liturgies. Pope Pius XI summed up what has always been the mind of the Church regarding the pope’s responsibilities towards the liturgy when he stated in Divini Cultus (1928):
    No wonder then, that the Roman Pontiffs have been so solicitous to safe guard and protect the liturgy. They have used the same care in making laws for the regulation of the liturgy, in preserving it from adulteration, as they have in giving accurate expression to the dogmas of the faith.
    It is the duty of the hierarchy and especially the Pope to “safeguard and protect the liturgy” as well as “preserving it from adulteration”. The Council Fathers of Vatican II expressed their intention to remain faithful to their pastoral duties regarding the liturgy, but the commission appointed by Paul VI, the Consilium, subverted the Council’s programme for legitimate liturgical revision, and brought about a new Protestant Reformation in the Church.27
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    A particular missal does not rise to the level of ex cathedra dogma. A missal is a handbook of rubrics, and many of the other rites have orders of celebration practices, as well. There is nothing inherently divinely revealed about the Roman Rite as codified by Pius V. It is a guide to current western liturgical practice at the time. Five centuries earlier, that missal could have just as easily been condemned as deviating from Tradition. There is great effort among extreme traditionalists - if you consider tradition as being only 5 or so centuries old - to elevate that particular missal to the same level as scripture. They are not equal. I look around and don't see any groundswell of public opinion demanding reinstating the older missal. It seems to me to be mostly traditionalist wishful thinking. That the EF exists I have no problem with. However, I think the audience for it is limited and will likely remain so.


    Charles:

    Perhaps you are not fully comprehending what is being presented here. This is about the doctrine and dogma of the 'rite of the Mass', not the specific Missal. Could this be the case?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    A “Brand New Rite”
    Pope Paul VI created the commission of bureaucrats that destroyed the Roman liturgy when he established the Consilium ad Exequendam Constitutionem de Sacra Liturgia by his Motu Proprio, Sacram Liturgiam. “Thus,” says Michael Davies, “the notori ous Consilium which destroyed the Roman Rite came into being ... Father Annibale Bugnini was appointed secretary of the Consilium ... it consisted of fifty bishops and two hundred consultors or advisers — the successors of the Council periti. (Father Peter Coughlin)”28 The president of the Consilium was Cardinal Lercaro, who has been described as “Luther resurrected”.29
    Bugnini himself revealed his schismatical intentions to destroy the liturgy when he stated on May 7, 1967, “It is not simply a question of restoring a valuable masterpiece, in some cases it will be necessary to provide new structures for entire rites ... it will truly be a new creation.”30 Joseph Gelineau S.J., “one of the most influential members of Archbishop Bugnini’s Consilium, which actually composed the New Mass”,31 spoke of the Roman liturgy saying, “Let them compare it with the Mass we now have. Not only the words, the melodies and some of the gestures are different. To tell the truth, it is a different liturgy of the Mass. This needs to be said with out ambiguity: the Roman Rite as we knew it no longer exists (Le rite romain tel que nous l’avons connu n’existe plus). It has been destroyed (il est detruit). Some walls of the former edifice have fallen while others have changed their appearance, to the extent that it appears today either as a ruin or the partial substructure of a different building.”32
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    extreme traditionalists

    Charles:
    Tradition is tradition. An 'extreme traditionalist' is an oxymoron, or a veiled punch at someone who is simply traditional. One either subscribes to tradition or s/he doesn't. To brand someone an 'extreme' traditionalist says that they are 'too traditional' or some brand of traditional that is not acceptable. You either have a liberal or not. There is no such thing as an extreme liberal... or IS there??
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    There are extreme Libertarians. I have met some of those. I think part of the problem is labeling a particular rite of the mass from a particular time as anything doctrinal. It isn't and it isn't necessarily "tradition." It is just practice either accepted or forced on all at a specific time. The case that what came out of Trent is "Tradition" as handed on from the apostles to the early Church, is a bit tenuous at best. Either that, or wishful thinking. "Tradition" is a gift from the Holy Spirit. Missals are time specific practices that can be varying degrees of traditional, but they are not "Tradition," as such.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Father John A. Kiley stated the obvious when he said, “The new liturgy ... is not a revision of the old Mass ... it is a brand new rite.”33 Pope Paul VI himself acknowledged the fact the Novus Ordo was not just a revision of the traditional rite when he announced in his gen•eral audience on November 19, 1969, that a change was “about to take place in the Latin Catholic Church”, and he announced the “in•troduction of a new rite of Mass into the liturgy”. During his dis•course, the Pope commented, “We may well ask ourselves: how could such a change ever take place?” In deed we may well ask our•selves how the Pope could ever allow such a change to take place, es•pe cially when we consider that the same pontiff acknowledged that the Church has professed the Mass to be “the traditional and un•touchable expression of our authentic religious worship”.34
    I say the Pope allowed such a change to take place in the Church because he himself did not mandate the change of rite: Paul VI only published the new missal with his Motu Proprio of April 3, 1969, Missale Romanum. The Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship promulgated the new missal in April of 1970. That promulgation only allowed for the use of the new missal. After the publication of Missale Romanum, there appeared other documents emanating from the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship: Ordo Missæ specifies the rubrics for the new rite, Ordo Lectionum Missæ presents the lectionary for the new rite, and there is also an instruction on October 20, 1969. All of this legislation is clearly invalid because it violates one of the most basic rules of law: Inferior non potest tollere legem superioris (an inferior cannot annul a superior’s law).35 This truly fundamental principle is also formally enshrined in the 1983 Code, in can. 135, § 2, which states, “... a law which is contrary to a higher law can not be validly enacted by a lower level legislator”.36 The ex•ecutive decrees of the Roman dicasteries do not have the authority to nullify the solemn decrees of Quo Primum.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    It is just practice either accepted or forced on all at a specific time. The case that what came out of Trent is "Tradition" as handed on from the apostles to the early Church, is a bit tenuous at best. Either that, or wishful thinking. "Tradition" is a gift from the Holy Spirit. Missals are time specific practices that can be varying degrees of traditional, but they are not "Tradition," as such.


    ...and TRADITION is nothing more?????!!!!!

    Here I would argue that you hold nothing in terms of dogma or doctrine to be absolute.

    12.
    We have thus reached one of the principal points in the Modernist's system, namely, the origin and the nature of dogma. For they place the origin of dogma in those primitive and simple formulas, which, under a certain aspect, are necessary to faith; for revelation, to be truly such, requires the clear knowledge of God in the consciousness. But dogma itself, they apparently hold, strictly consists in the secondary formulas .

    To ascertain the nature of dogma, we must first find the relation which exists between the religious formulas and the religious sense. This will be readily perceived by anyone who holds that these formulas have no other purpose than to furnish the believer with a means of giving to himself an account of his faith. These formulas therefore stand midway between the believer and his faith; in their relation to the faith they are the inadequate expression of its object, and are usually called symbols; in their relation to the believer they are mere instruments.
    Hence it is quite impossible to maintain that they absolutely contain the truth: for, in so far as they are symbols, they are the images of truth, and so must be adapted to the religious sense in its relation to man; and as instruments, they are the vehicles of truth, and must therefore in their turn be adapted to man in his relation to the religious sense. But the object of the religious sense, as something contained in the absolute, possesses an infinite variety of aspects, of which now one, now another, may present itself. In like manner he who believes can avail himself of varying conditions. Consequently, the formulas which we call dogma must be subject to these vicissitudes, and are, therefore, liable to change. Thus the way is open to the intrinsic evolution of dogma. Here we have an immense structure of sophisms which ruin and wreck all religion.
    13.
    Dogma is not only able, but ought to evolve and to be changed. This is strongly affirmed by the Modernists, and clearly flows from their principles. For among the chief points of their teaching is the following, which they deduce from the principle of vital immanence, namely, that religious formulas if they are to be really religious and not merely intellectual speculations, ought to be living and to live the life of the religious sense. This is not to be understood to mean that these formulas, especially if merely imaginative, were to be invented for the religious sense. Their origin matters nothing, any more than their number or quality. What is necessary is that the religious sense—with some modification when needful— should vitally assimilate them. In other words, it is necessary that the primitive formula be accepted and sanctioned by the heart; and similarly the subsequent work from which are brought forth the .secondary formulas must proceed under the guidance of the heart. Hence it comes that these formulas, in order to be living, should be, and should remain, adapted to the faith and to him who believes. Wherefore, if for any reason this adaptation should cease to exist, they lose their first meaning and accordingly need to be changed. In view of the fact that the character and lot of dogmatic formulas are so unstable, it is no wonder that Modernists should regard them so lightly and in such open

    disrespect, and have no consideration or praise for anything but the religious sense and for the religious life. In this way, with consummate audacity, they criticize the Church, as having strayed from the true path by failing to distinguish between the religious and moral sense of formulas and their surface meaning, and by clinging vainly and tenaciously to meaningless formulas, while religion itself is allowed to go to ruin. "Blind'- they are, and "leaders of the blind" puffed up with the proud name of science, they have reached that pitch of folly at which they pervert the eternal concept of truth and the true meaning of religion; in introducing a new system in which "they are seen to be under the sway of a blind and unchecked passion for novelty, thinking not at all of finding some solid foundation of truth, but despising the holy and apostolic traditions, they embrace other and vain, futile, uncertain doctrines, unapproved by the Church, on which, in the height of their vanity, they think they can base and maintain truth itself."[8]

    PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS (On The Doctrine Of The
    Modernists)
    Pope Pius X

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I think proponents of the so called Tridentine Mass bend logic and reason in trying to promote it as the only true and God given way of worship. It isn't. It may actually be superior to the current missal in some ways, or maybe not so superior in other ways. The current missal is what it is, the mass of the Roman Rite, like it or not. In any event, it and the earlier missal are liturgical practice and public worship, not dogma or articles of faith. Dogma was pretty much defined by the end of the first seven ecumenical councils. What has been added since is not newly created dogma, but what was generally believed in early times. There can always be new missals created, but not new articles of faith.
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Neither Pope Paul VI nor the Council nullified Quo Primum, and neither mandated the new rite, and therefore Quo Primum still has the force of law. Vatican II did not promulgate any new liturgical laws. It pertains to the very essence of law that “A law comes into existence when it is promulgated” (CIC 1983, c. 7), and therefore it is absurd for anyone to say that Vatican II is the basis for the authority of the New Missal or that Paul VI did not need to formally mandate the use of the New Missal in order for it to have the force of law. Davies summed up the situation well when he wrote:
    The problem faced by the Vatican as a result of the widespread support for the Tridentine Mass was that it had condoned its almost universal suppression with out giving formal and binding legal sanction to this suppression; and further more, this illegal suppression has been given sup•port in documents emanating from the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship.37
    The traditionalists’ steadfast adherence to the Tridentine Mass has earned for them the indignity of being labelled as “schismatics” because they refuse obedience to non-existent laws:38laws which, if they did exist, would be essentially schismatic, according to the infallible teaching of the Church. “The Novus Ordo”, wrote Cardinal Ottaviani, “represents, both as a whole and in its details, a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was formulated in Session XXII of the Council of Trent,”39 and constitutes a “grave break with tradition”.40
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    The doctrine reflected in the lex orandi (the law of praying) of the Novus Ordo is Protestant because the lex credendi (the law of believing) of its makers is Protestant. The definition of the Mass given in No. 7 of the Institutio Generalis of the Novus Ordo reads: “The Lord’s Supper or Mass, is the sacred assembly or gathering together of the people of God, with a priest presiding, to celebrate the memorial of the Lord”.41 Thus the General Instruction to the Novus Ordo defines the Mass in such terms that specify its essence as a “memorial of the Lord”: yet, the concept of the Mass as a mere memorial of the Lord is a solemnly anathematised heresy condemned by the Council of Trent.42 This definition also expresses the Lutheran heresy43 that all Christians are priests who offer the Lord’s Supper together with the priest presiding since it attributes to the Mass the essential characteristic of an “assembly or gathering together of the people of God, with a priest presiding”.44
    Since the Consilium defined the Mass in strictly Protestant terms which constitute a denial of the propitiatory nature of the sacrifice, it is no wonder that it systematically expunged from the liturgy nearly every reference to the propitiatory oblation, of which the Mass essentially consists.45 The making of the new rite has followed the same pattern as the making of the Protestant liturgies.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Professor
    J.P.M. vander Ploeg O.P., observes:
    It would be an exaggeration in most cases to claim that the Protestants composed completely new liturgical rites. They tended to adapt existing Catholic rites, but removed from them every thing which was not compatible with the particular heresies they favoured.
    In the above-mentioned Vindication of “Apostolicæ Curæ”, the Catholic bishops of England explained exactly how this was done:
    To put the matter briefly, if the first Prayer Book of Edward VI is compared with the Missal, sixteen omissions can be detected, the evident purpose of which was to eliminate the idea of sacrifice ... even after that drastic treatment there still remained a few phrases and rubrics on which Gardiner could fasten, endeavouring to understand them as still asserting the real objective Presence and the True Sacrifice ...
    With this in mind we can clearly see how the Consilium systematically mutilated the liturgy according to the same heretical pattern. The Roman Rite begins with the prayers at the foot of the altar. The priest says prayers to prepare himself to approach the altar (introibo ad altare Dei), and enter the Holy of Holies (ut ad sancta sanctorum puris mereamur mentibus introire ...)46
    The explicit mention of the altar and Holy of Holies clearly implies the reality of the propitiatory sacrifice about to take place. These prayers of the Roman Rite were replaced with a new introductory rite in the Novus Ordo in which the notion of oblation has been expunged:
    Fratres, agnoscamus peccata nos tra ut apti simus ad sacra mysteria celebranda.
    The English translation of this formula (and the other vernacular translations) suggests even more strongly the Lutheran heresy of concelebration with the laity:
    My Brothers and Sisters, to prepare ourselves to celebrate the sacred mysteries, let us call to mind our sins.
    Not only is the notion of the sacrifice absent from the new formula, but in the new formula the celebrants also appear to be the entire congregation; whereas in the traditional rite, it is the priest who goes up to the altar of God, and it is he who enters the Holy of Holies to offer the sacrifice of the New and Everlasting Covenant. In the Roman Rite, the congregation clearly assists while it is the priest who offers the sacrifice. In the new rite, the prayers suggest that it is the entire congregation that celebrates and the priest only presides. This is the way the Consilium intended it to appear, i.e. strictly according to the Protestant definition of the Mass as set forth in no. 7 of the Institutio Generalis.47
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    There remains scarcely a trace of the Roman Offertory in the new rite, in spite of the fact that the Council specified that “care must be taken that any new forms adopted should in some way grow organically from forms already existing.” The Súscipe Sancte Pater has been discarded in the new rite. “Súscipe Sancte Pa ter”, explains Pius Parsch, “‘Receive, O holy Father, almighty, eternal God, this spotless host which I, Thy unworthy servant, offer unto Thee, my living and true God, for mine own countless sins, offences and negligences, and for all here present: as also for faithful Christians, living or dead, that it may avail for my own and for their salvation unto life everlasting. Amen.’ This prayer — the richest in content of any of this part of the Mass — contains a whole world of dogmatic truth.”
    Similarly the prayer for offer ing of the chalice has also been removed: “We offer Thee the chalice of salvation, O Lord, beseeching Thy mercy that it may be as a sweet fragrance before Thy divine majesty for the salvation of us and the whole world.”
    The prayer for the ‘presenting of the gifts’, the rite that replaces the Offertory of the Roman Rite, reads:
    Blessed are You Lord God of all creation. Through Your goodness we have this bread (or wine) to offer, which earth has given (fruit of the vine) and human hands have made. It will be come for us the bread of life (or spiritual drink).
    “This prayer”, Davies explains, “is ... acceptable not simply to Protestants but to Jews and would certainly fit in with the ethos of a Masonic hall.” In spite of the fact that Vatican II decreed that “The rite of the Mass is to be revised in such a way that the intrinsic nature and purpose of its several parts, as well as the connection between them, may be more clearly manifested”, the several prayers which clearly express the intrinsic nature and purpose of the ceremony have been removed, and replaced by a single new prayer that does not even offer a hint of the divine sacri fice that is about to take place.48
    The new prayers for the ‘Presentation of the Gifts’, are, as Jungmann points out, “reconstructed” ancient Jewish prayers. They are not even Jewish liturgical prayers, but are “probably the very words used at the blessing of bread and wine in a Jewish meal at the time of Christ”.49 The Catholic emphasis on the oblation has been replaced with the Protestant emphasis on the supper, and it is quite obvious that the new prayers did not “grow organically from forms already existing” as para graph 23 of the Liturgy Constitution requires.
    It is not difficult to understand why the beautiful verses from Psalm 25 which constituted the Lavabo have been reduced to the following:
    “Lord, wash me of my iniquity, cleanse me from my sin.”
    Psalm 25 ‘had’ to go: it contained a reference to the altar of sacrifice: et circuibo altare tuum Domine.
    The doctrinally rich Súscipe Sanc ta Trinitas was likewise intolerable because of its reference to the “oblation”, and therefore had to be removed:
    “Receive, O Holy Trinity this oblation ...”
    The Veni Sanctificator was also removed. About this the Critical Study50 comments:
    The suppression of the invocation to the Third Per son of the Most Holy Trinity that He may descend upon the oblations, as once be fore into the womb of the Most Blessed Virgin to accomplish the miracle of the divine Presence, is
    yet one more instance of the systematic and tacit negation
    of the Real Presence.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Francis, what is your point? Are you trying to announce that you are a schismatic? Are you encouraging others to be schismatics? Que pasa?
    Thanked by 3Spriggo CharlesW Gavin
  • The suppression of the invocation to the Third Per son of the Most Holy Trinity that He may descend upon the oblations, as once be fore into the womb of the Most Blessed Virgin to accomplish the miracle of the divine Presence, is yet one more instance of the systematic and tacit negation of the Real Presence.


    From the much-maligned Eucharistic Prayer II (2010 translation):

    Make holy, therefore, these gifts, we pray by sending down your Spirit upon them like the dewfall, so that they may become for us the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.


    Looks like they missed a spot in their systematic negation.
    Thanked by 3Kathy CHGiffen BruceL
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Kathy:

    I am not out to make a point. I am attempting to uncover something about the NO that many of us may not be aware about, especially younger generations who no nothing about the actual unfolding of VII (well, at least the way it spun out despite its best intentions).
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Andrew. Could it be that the prayer you cite is from MR3 and this book was published in 2006? Thank God! One mistake has been fixed, or at least addressed.