P&W Holy Hour?
  • DrJS
    Posts: 31
    How common is the Praise and Worship holy hour? Is the holy hour ever accompanied by other music?
    I'm not looking for opinions so much as information as I try to understand the Catholic musical landscape.
  • davido
    Posts: 1,264
    Too common.
    Holy hour is not accompanied by other music because adoration is supposed to be in silence. Non-P&W people understand this.


    Sometimes people sing Vespers during a holy hour.
    Thanked by 6SponsaChristi DrJS Chant_Supremacist Liam LauraKaz irishtenor
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 881
    If we’re referring to the cliche sentimental Hillsong-type P&W music with a guy at a keyboard vamping while repeatedly saying pious sounding phrases in a forced emotional way in between songs, I’ve never been to a weekend conference or day of recollection that hasn’t had it. It’s one of the reasons I stopped attending them.

    Thanked by 4DrJS Chant_Supremacist Charles davido
  • TimTheEnchanterTimTheEnchanter
    Posts: 244
    My parish used to have them, but when the pastor was transferred, they went with him. (He was much more traditional during Mass itself.)

    I will say: in 2018 at NPM, I went to an hour of adoration with more "contemporary" than P&W, and frankly, it was quite moving, with the music competently done and audio properly balanced.

    I went to the hour of adoration at NPM in 2022, and it was far less competent and audio badly balanced, and it was quite, quite frustrating.

    It's not something I would organize, run, or play for, but I'll give it its due when it's done well. I wish that were more often.
    Thanked by 2novusgordo JBuckCC
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,872
    Too often, and Steubenville essentially never had silent solemn exposition. There was always something. There’s the various chapels and then the exposition chapel (the Port) for silent prayer. The conference model is as Sponsa describes.

    I’m also against the rosary (traditionally the rubrics were too) and other devotions; I also dislike reading scripture, preaching…what could you possibly add to the Word? And Vespers is tricky because we are far too casual about the exposition and the liturgical celebrations when before this was essentially only done during the Forty Hours and possibly during the octave of Corpus Christi because the rubrics are quite demanding.
    Thanked by 1CharlesWoods
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 881
    I’m also against the rosary (traditionally the rubrics were too) and other devotions; I also dislike reading scripture, preaching…what could you possibly add to the Word?

    There are legitimate public group Holy Hour devotions done during exposition, most notably the 40 Hours of Adoration devotion, usually done for a specific Diocesan intention such as vocations to the priesthood. I have a few I do privately, but are designed for group prayer. One is a Spiritual Motherhood of Priests sodality I belong to that prays specifically for priests as well as vocations to the priesthood. Another is the Holy Hour of Reparation devotion that’s done during adoration. Then there’s also the Sacred Heart Holy Hour. It’s not really about “adding”, but rather using it as an opportunity for direct and personal communication with our Lord as well as rallying the troupe so to speak and engage in spiritual battle with our Lord at the forefront.
    Thanked by 2Charles novusgordo
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,872
    The Forty Hours Devotion when done correctly has specific Masses to be said and the rite of exposition and of reposition are unique but the in-between is not prescribed.

    I mean that’s all well and good, but the fact is that we can’t handle silence, and the mentality that “Everything Must Have Vocal Devotions” is bad. We escape largely because the custom here is to have confessions, so the priests will not read scripture or preach, and they seem to be in agreement on no devotions, not even the rosary. Do it at another time.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,572
    It's very common here, but funny thing is that most people talk about how silence is so important. Many people I know are quite annoyed by it because it's hard to hear God when you have a cantor singing "I need you, Lord, I need you!" on repeat. But somehow priests allow and even encourage it. I would just prefer the chants at exposition and reposition and I don't think I'm alone.
    Thanked by 9SponsaChristi Chant_Supremacist novusgordo CHGiffen Charles francis LauraKaz irishtenor ian_udell
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 881
    Many people I know are quite annoyed by it because it's hard to hear God when you have a cantor singing "I need you, Lord, I need you!" on repeat. But somehow priests allow and even encourage it.

    This. Same with encouraging and telling people during their homily to come early before Mass and spend time in silent recollection to prepare for Mass and to receive communion, meanwhile allowing the noise of loud chatter of people hanging out in the church proper before Mass.

    Then there’s that whole Sacred Silence song with the irritating electric piano being anything but silent. There’s just something about singing about sacred silence.
    Thanked by 3novusgordo Charles LauraKaz
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 521
    At my current age, I REALLY appreciate silence, and especially genuinely silent adoration,

    But when I was a lot younger, I absolutely did not.

    And even with appreciating silence, I have a suspicion that my spirit is actually fed by regular rhythm.

    That's just me. But I'm not unique.

    Yes P&W holy-hours are a thing. They ain't for everyone. But ascetic silent ones aren't, either.

    Being Catholic means you are part of a Big Church.
    Thanked by 2novusgordo JBuckCC
  • Chant_Supremacist
    Posts: 384
    I'm tempted to say that it's a complete misunderstanding of what Eucharistic adoration is (interior attentiveness and spiritual warfare), but I suppose that's above my pay grade to declare. I'm thankful my parish's Saturday morning holy hour is silent. I've been to a couple where there was a chant or hymn (not P&W) every 15 minutes, and thought that split the difference nicely.
    Thanked by 2Charles davido
  • davido
    Posts: 1,264
    Supremecist, people above your pay grade are prone to error, just like the rest of us. It is exactly a complete misunderstanding of Eucharistic adoration.
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 881
    Supremecist, people above your pay grade are prone to error,

    Yep. I had a priest completely make up his own form of absolution a few months ago. I could have said it’s above my pay grade to question his form of absolution and went on my merry way, but instead I took it to the diocesan chancellor to investigate its validity (and investigate he did). Not surprisingly, I was right, and the chancellor informed the parish’s pastor so the priest was corrected. Had I not said anything because it was above my pay grade to question a priest’s absolution as a lowly laywoman, God only knows how many penitents would leave the confessional not absolved.
    Thanked by 4CHGiffen Charles irishtenor ian_udell
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 521
    a complete misunderstanding of what Eucharistic adoration is (interior attentiveness and spiritual warfare)


    Can anyone point to an authoratative document which says what Adoration is, and what should happen during it?

    None of the promoters I've heard speak use the phrases mentioned above.
    Thanked by 2Chant_Supremacist igneus
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 881
    Can anyone point to an authoratative document which says what Adoration is, and what should happen during it?

    There’s an overwhelmingly large amount of authoritative documents. This gives a fairly good overview with a bibliography for more in-depth information.

    https://fdlc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Guidelines-for-Adoration-and-Exposition-of-the-Blessed-Sacrament-Diocese-of-Lansing.pdf
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 521
    There’s an overwhelmingly large amount of authoritative documents.


    A large number of documents, with similar but not the same messages does seem rather diluted. If one was authoritative, there would be no need for others.

    Looking at the document linked to:

    I don't see any mention of spiritual warfare.

    There's very little mention in the document of what happens at regular (ie not Perpetual) Adoration.

    It's a little contradictory:
    "Adoration is primarily individual, although it may be done in groups or as a family"

    and later, under Perpetual adoration:

    "When the whole community takes part in adoration before Christ the Lord, readings, songs and silence may foster effectively the spiritual life of the community"

    Groups suggests less than the whole community, yet the 2nd sentence says whole-community can happen. What is the "whole community" anyway - if 2 people in the whole parish can't be there, is that less than "whole community"? Common sense says surely not.

    Why are readings and music acceptable during "whole community" adoration but not during smaller groups?

    And where does it say anything about musical styles, anyway.

    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 881
    A large number of documents, with similar but not the same messages does seem rather diluted. If one was authoritative, there would be no need for others.

    This isn’t how the Church works. Not everything is found in a single authoritative document. Look up the miracle of St. Clare of Assisi who fended off a Muslim invasion of her monastery through her faith in the Real Presence by holding up the Blessed Sacrament in the Monstrance.

    I question if you truly believe that Jesus is fully present, body, blood, soul and divinity in the Blessed Sacrament? I question because basic logic tells us that Jesus can fight off Satan. If the Blessed Sacrament is Jesus veiled by the appearance of bread, then it’s just basic reasoning that Adoration and Exposition can be used as spiritual warfare.
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 521
    Do you really not see the difference between

    Adoration and Exposition can be used as spiritual warfare

    and

    The purpose of Adoration and Exposition is spiritual warfare.

    Christ is the Prince of Peace, not the King of War. He came that we may have life, and have it to the full. And taught that the greatest commandment is to love.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,275
    We just completed a 40 Hours (punctuated, because not during the darkest night time) having begun and ended with sung Masses de Eucharistiæ Sacramento with full Litany of the Saints etc: and yesterday with sung Eucharistic Vespers.

    There has been a lot of silence...

    But wow it's not silence during the Litany, it's strong vocal prayers: ut inimicos Sanctæ Ecclesiæ humiliare digneris... ut mentes nostras ad cælestia desideria erigas... etc etc. I’d say four out of the forty hours were praise and worship. Secundum traditionem autem Ecclesiæ Romanæ.
    Thanked by 4OMagnumMysterium PaxMelodious davido SponsaChristi
  • davido
    Posts: 1,264
    ^^ And that’s really the gist of it. There is a Catholic tradition of praise and worship and it has nothing to do with rock music, guitars drums or pianos.
    Thanked by 1SponsaChristi
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,721
    "I question if you truly believe that Jesus is fully present, body, blood, soul and divinity in the Blessed Sacrament? "

    I wonder if that's a step too far here
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 11,438
    Christ is the Prince of Peace, not the King of War.


    Catholic church on earth = church militant

    https://www.theeasternchurch.com/saints/catholic-warrior-saints-complete-guide
    Thanked by 1SponsaChristi
  • Chant_Supremacist
    Posts: 384
    I would avoid a false dichotomy between spiritual combat and unitive love. When I say I find adoration pre-eminent for spiritual warfare, what I mean is that I see it as a special place for the combat against exterior and interior distractions and temptations, and the perfection of vigilance and attention to the divine. This vigilance IS peace, but it's preceded, or maybe surrounded by war. And while sentiments of love and unity are good and consoling, from this perspective they can also be distractions.

    There's a reason why this paraliturgy has developed into things like the 40 hours devotion and perpetual adoration chapels, I think because the Church has implicitly recognized its special value for vigilance, attention, and silent interiority.

    With that said, I still think it's above my pay grade to claim unequivocally that lovers of P&W adoration (or other music for that matter) have misunderstood it.
    Thanked by 1Andrew_Malton
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 521
    I wonder if that's a step too far here

    It's certainly an interesting comment.

    I think it points to a particular view of spiritual life as an ongoing state of warfare, and a lack of understanding that not everyone shares that view.


    Andrew_Malton's observation that "...four out of the forty hours were praise and worship" is probably the right proportion for many English-as-first-language settings. It would be quite different for the African groups I know, and I suspect many Latin-Americans (though I have less exposure to the latter)
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 881

    I think it points to a particular view of spiritual life as an ongoing state of warfare, and a lack of understanding that not everyone shares that view.

    That’s nice, but that’s not what the Church teaches. It’s literally in the Bible:
    Ephesians 6:11-18
    11 Put you on the armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the deceits of the devil.
    12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.
    13 Therefore take unto you the armour of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and to stand in all things perfect.
    14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of justice,
    15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace:
    16 In all things taking the shield of faith, wherewith you may be able to extinguish all the fiery darts of the most wicked one.
    17 And take unto you the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit (which is the word of God).
    18 By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit; and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints:


    Even the Protestants take the Church seriously when they start having issues with diabolical oppression, obsession, and possession and will call a Catholic priest rather than their non-denominational pastor.
    Thanked by 1davido
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