Attendance to Choir ratio
  • DrJS
    Posts: 30
    What is a healthy ratio of Mass attendance to choir size in a Catholic parish? At my new parish, there are 650-750 people each week at the most attended Mass. The choir for that service has 8-10 singers. I would think 25-50 would be a healthier percentage of that crowd.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,787
    Correct but…
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 12,096
    Seems everyone is over-booked and unwilling to put the time into choirs and rehearsals. I don't know what the solution is. Singing is just not that important to folks any more.
  • DrJS
    Posts: 30
    My choir, to my delight, is very dedicated and they sing well. They're also few in number, and I'm wondering if that's normal in a Catholic parish.
  • Felicia
    Posts: 169
    I often wonder why a parish with a membership of, say, 3000 families seems content with having only a handful of people in the choir. Or, why parishioners consider this group, with each of its members singing into a microphone, to be a "choir."
  • It's not just singing. I think fewer people make their own music today than when I was a kid in the 1970s and 80s. Inversely, only about 11 years ago did I decide to learn. Violin and bass viol, and I sing in our tiny church choir. And for the past 14 months, I've been composing music. I'm not very good at any of these things, but despite a full-time job I put an hour or two into making music (just about) every day. For me it requires a deliberate withdrawal from popular culture (although I had already quit television almost 30 years ago) and very limited social life. The noise of the world discourages the attention span required for learning how to make music.
  • My choir, to my delight, is very dedicated and they sing well. They're also few in number, and I'm wondering if that's normal in a Catholic parish.


    To answer your question directly, yes it is fairly normal for the choir to be smaller relative to the congregation than it ought to be. This is of course not always the case, but it certainly seems to be typical. Less typical is that they sound good, so be thankful for that!
  • To paraphrase Matthew Kelly: 7% of the congregation does 93% of the work. That seems to be the case with my choirs, as well.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CharlesW
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,787
    Sometimes even less than 7%
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CharlesW
  • So this thread is asking what is a healthy ratio, and posits:
    650-750 attendees
    8-10 actual choir
    25-50 healthier percentage choir

    Turning those into %-ages:
    actual 8-10 is 1%
    healthier is only 4% - 7%

    4-7% sounds low , to me. But a choir of 50 sounds very large (and remember, we're talking weekly attendees: get get attendance of 50 probably means having 70-80 members.

    Seems to me what is healthy depends on how much non-choir-members sing the ordinary and hymns, ie behave like the primary (largely unrehearsed) choir.

    If the primary choir sings, then 8 who can lead and sing special music would feel pretty healthy to me.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,787
    But are you paying half of those folks or more just to sing, and do you have any volunteers? Is the choir actually a praying ensemble? I depend on paid folks, one of whom recruited externally is Catholic, but you must at least be open to recruiting volunteers, not just anyone, of course…at least in this country, one because budgets don’t expand infinitely, two because it’s a necessity if you are to have goodwill with parishioners.

    Mine discovered that we were still paying people, which leads to some confusion and disappointment, and they’re happy when I explain that we pay a core of singers and recruit volunteers around them; my handbook explains that the paid folks especially sing the chant (the Ordinary) to support the congregation which does sing well, but unevenly (obviously Mass IV is less well known than XI!).

    Anyway if I had more volunteers we could have choral music without the paid folks in the summer (which would give the choir a longer break from Sundays and therefore in all likelihood rehearsals — coming back in August for the feast of the Assumption was tight!) and after Christmas, at our weeknight Masses…we might be able to do TTBB with two paid voices instead of four, but I wish we had more reliable volunteers so that we could have at least two per part. Safety in numbers!

    30 people in the music program between the men’s schola and choir would be great for me! Not everyone sings every week, and the core people could also take some time off themselves at this point if we had that many people to draw on and develop.

    Vespers is strong, but I just lost my cantor who sangs the psalms with me and don’t have a regular replacement yet. The odd verses are a bit weak, and I’d like more of the men’s schola to sing with me.
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,245
    Olden days: my choir at a 1500 family parish ran around 25-30, including some "heavy hitter" industrial executives. They all showed up weekly for 2 hour rehearsal (less 15 minute break). Summer vacay began 6/15 or so, ended the Thursday after Labor Day. The usual workload: all Sundays, all Holy Week services, Midnight Mass AND Missa Cantata at 0930 next morning....

    Current parish--where I am not involved in music-- about 2000 families, mixed choir of <20, women's choir of 10. They only sing 2x/month.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,296
    Right now we're averaging 6 singers for 150 in the pews= 4%, borderline OK. And it's going to get better soon. Fortunately, people seem thrilled with whatever we sing. We do some 4-part music with organ, but I'd rather not unless we have at least 2 on S & T (the alto can sing alone, though she's getting help soon, and the bass is me.) Fr. Rossini's rule was a minimum average of 5 per voice part; you weren't supposed to sing in 4 parts in Pittsburgh unless you had a 20 voice choir. This used to make me laugh, but I'm coming around. 2 on the "buddy system" only means that in deep water, one singer will pull the other one under. 3 starts to give a real section sound. But to get 3 consistently, you do need 4-5 to a part.
  • Seems everyone is over-booked and unwilling to put the time into choirs and rehearsals. I don't know what the solution is. Singing is just not that important to folks any more.

    FWIW, this isn’t just a church choir thing. Even award-winning singing groups can be flakier than croissants when it comes to showing up on time to dress rehearsals leaving stuff to go unrehearsed because the musicians’ union rules still apply to them.

    I gave everything I had to our Latin Mass community’s choir and schola, only to keep getting dismissed and left out of schola communications and the new director not really wanting to have a woman in the schola. I got fed up and left. I don’t have the patience for shoddy leadership.

    The noise of the world discourages the attention span required for learning how to make music.

    So does a 50 year old apartment building and living next door to a Karen who has the landlord on speed dial. I’ve missed practicing scales, arpeggios and intervals so much over the past nine years. I just moved and upgraded to a building with no neighbours, insulated walls, and an underground parkade with great acoustics.
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  • Felicia
    Posts: 169
    @Jeffrey Quick
    Re: the 20-voice choir

    This sort of matches my thinking, though I'd be happy with 3 per part if I were a choir director (I'm one of the organists).

    I usually play for a vigil Mass with roughly 450 people or so attending, sometimes with a cantor, and sometimes with a group of 3-6 singers who sing in harmony. These folks sing beautifully, and I enjoy accompanying them. But I think of a group like this as a small ensemble rather than a choir.
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