Singers leaving parish NO choir to join parish TLM choir
  • My parish offers both forms of the mass. The NO choir has one director, and I direct the traditional liturgical functions. We are collegial, and we sometimes "lend" each other choir members to help out, and sometimes I come help personally or vice versa. The many weavings would be complicated to explain, but the point is we work together.

    Over the last year there has been a decided, though not monumental, trend of singers leaving the NO choir to join the TLM choir. I have never tried to recruit from that pool in any way, let me add - some people are just choosing to switch. Recently one of that choir's strongest singers informed me she might join the TLM choir, and while I would welcome her assistance, and everything is ultimately her choice, this one now has me slightly worried about optics and relationships. She would be the fourth such person and certainly the biggest hit to the other choir.

    Is this something I should just not worry about (it's people making choices), something I should speak to the other director or the priest about? How should I handle this?
  • A contributing factor could be the time of the mass and the rehearsal. Several years ago a survey indicated that TIME of day is the overriding factor in their decision as to which mass they attend. If this helps, I'm glad; but I'm not trying to incite a flaming war!
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,734
    To be honest my pastor has this problem with the servers even the youth. That’s the breaks basically.
  • AbbysmumAbbysmum
    Posts: 209
    Is it maybe nothing to do with either of you, and maybe about them discovering they prefer that form of the Mass? Roborgel and Matthew both make good points, especially about preference for Mass times (and it's def a trend with servers, who are often dependent on what Mass their parents go to). If that's the case...
    That’s the breaks basically.


    That being said,...

    We have 4 weekend Masses at our NO parish, and each is differently "flavoured", musically. There are Masses I prefer over others because of the music. I am involved in two of them on the regular, and I know which one I would pick if I had to choose only one. Time of day is a factor, but the music has always been the bigger influence.

    Have you asked them why? Maybe it's rep. Maybe it's the ordo. Maybe they like how you run rehearsals better. And then probably have a chat with your counterpart.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,734
    Yeah. and it could be all of it to the point where the other person’s improvements might not change their mind.

    I’m also very bad about feeling like I have to anticipate people being hurt and relationship problems, but my advice is to let it play out. Inquire, certainly, with this singer if she switches definitively but you might not need to bring it up, and who knows: people can be more gracious than we think.
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 875
    It could depend on the NO repertoire. Is it vertical, that is God centered with robust Eucharist hymns or very horizontal, anthropocentric, with weak or ambiguous Eucharistic realism?

    Many singers who are serious about sacred music reach a threshold where they crave text and music with stronger Eucharistic realism. If the repertoire gap between the two Masses is wide, that shift in musical diet is often the primary driver, rather than Mass timing or rehearsal styles.

    Regarding the pastor: I wouldn't drag Father into this unless an actual conflict arises. Involving clergy over routine volunteer movement often turns a non-issue into official 'drama.' A quick, warm, heads-up to your fellow director ('Hey, just letting you know [Singer] reached out to me—wanted to keep you in the loop so there's no weirdness') handles the optics, preserves your working relationship, and keeps Father out of the weeds.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,699
    I spent years in what might be called mixed-repertoire scholas that had different qualities, typically driven by the pastoral leadership. Mercifully, none of them were limited to what I called "Missalette Beige" (though today it might be "Missalette Greige"). Still, I certainly spent the first few years of one schola in the mid-90s chafing under a great fear that Latin texts would be too much for the congregation to bear (which I fear I managed to demonstrate was false by an ... experiment ... where leadership relented for once and we sang the chant Pange Lingua at the end of the Evening Mass of The Lord's Supper and the congregation took it up enthusiastically, to the shock of leadership, which eased up as a happy result - it helped that we had a beautiful mid-19th century acoustic for a cappella singing).

    There are too many places where leadership's taste dial is stuck on roughly 1992, minus D Haas and plus composers who were rushed into missalettes to fill the void left in the wake of his disappearance therefrom. The introduction of the revised Missal 15 years ago helped dislodge some (but not all) of the baleful stasis on contemporary settings of the Ordinary, and restrictions during the first year or so of the Pandemic did help somewhat to disrupt the great power of inertia in this regard.
  • AbbysmumAbbysmum
    Posts: 209
    @Don9of11, you said exactly what I wanted to say but couldn't find the words. Thanks.
    Thanked by 2Don9of11 CHGiffen
  • probe
    Posts: 215
    Liam, may I ask - how much preparation and rehearsal did the congregation need to sing Pange Lingua?
    Thanked by 1Chant_Supremacist
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 875
    Thanks for the kind words, @Abbysmum!

    The reason this topic is so top-of-mind for me is that I’ve been examining it through my fifty years of choral service across two parishes—mostly at St. Mary's in Akron, Ohio—and through a local hymnological study of our parish inheritance: You can download the study in its entirety here. A Parish Inheritance

    Looking through the historical repertoire of a single parish over the decades really drives home what @Liam was talking about regarding the shift in musical diets. To be clear, I’m neither a champion of chant nor a proponent of the TLM—my passion is protecting the treasure of hymnody and exploring "catechesis through melody." Sacred hymns have a lineage in Christian worship that predates the formal codification of Gregorian chant, serving as a primary tool for teaching and instilling the faith.

    Tracing how the texts and hymn tunes changed over time shows a direct correlation between what a choir is fed musically and how their liturgical appetite evolves. When singers are exposed to strong Eucharistic realism, robust hymnody, and vertical, God-centered texts, their standards naturally shift—and once that threshold is crossed, it's very hard to go back to a lighter "diet."
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,699
    Probe

    None.

    This was about 30 years ago. It was an oratory (read: intentional community), not a territorial parish, so the community demographics skewed in a way that enough people in the pews had had familiarity with PL in their youth and the general disposition of congregants was to sing. And participation spread with repetition during the procession to the lower church. We repeated this in subsequent years without incident.

    Given that congregants in procession often don't bother singing, I had argued beforehand that, if we've accepted that reality in the past, what real harm could come of the proposed experiment....

    It's counterintuitive, but metrical hymns can get really off and scattershot over a long thin procession line (dampening the continuance of singing by the congregation), but while chant will drag, it doesn't feel as scattershot: start vigorously....
    Thanked by 3probe CHGiffen Abbysmum
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 817
    When singers are exposed to strong Eucharistic realism, robust hymnody, and vertical, God-centered texts, their standards naturally shift—and once that threshold is crossed, it's very hard to go back to a lighter "diet."

    It’s not just singers. I gave up eating meat one Lent so I could afford the gas to drive four hours round trip to go to Mass (sometimes would do it the Saturday evening prior as well so I could go to Confession as it wasn’t particularly available in the city I was living in) after being exposed to Latin Gregorian chant. It wasn’t even high quality chant, but it was far better than the insipid horizontal music* sung at the church I had available to me at the time. I was able to make arrangements to continue my education off campus, so I ended up just moving there to save money and less oil changes.

    * Ashes on Ash Wednesday was the song that made me make the definitive decision, but the stuff they sang made the St. Louis Jesuits sound like traditional music. At least their music is scriptural.
  • CatholicZ09
    Posts: 353
    I’m one of those individuals that will work my schedule around a specific Mass time. I love early Sunday morning Masses, and because of that, I’ve had to turn my music director (and her predecessor) down on invites to join the choir simply because they sing at the late Sunday morning Mass. I’ll help out on occasional one-off events, but I like my Sundays to revolve around the early Mass.

    Point is, maybe the time of day for the TLM in your parish suits certain individuals’ needs better, or maybe there’s something else going on. It sounds as if you have a good relationship with your members, so I wouldn’t worry too much about it. Maybe they ended up attending a TLM one weekend and really liked it!
  • CaleferinkCaleferink
    Posts: 464
    Since you have both forms at your parish, I can see it as an opportunity for a bit of "cross-pollination." Perhaps invite the NO choir to sing with the TLM on a Requiem on All Souls' Day and promote it as an opportunity to sing it in its intended context and not just a concert or bits and pieces at NO Masses, and then see if your counterpart will invite the TLM choir for a special NO Mass like a parish feast day or the bishop's visit or whatever. Take it as an opportunity to work together as the last thing you want to have happen is the phenomenon of "parallel parishes." And certainly ask the "defecting" NO choir members what made them come over to the TLM choir in a non-confrontational way; as others have said, it may, and likely does, have nothing to do with the other guy.

    As a bit of an aside, my previous parish offered both forms as well, and they now have 2 seminarians, a man in formation for the permanent diaconate, a woman religious novice, and a woman looking into consecrated virginity. Some of them were cultivated in the NO, others in the TLM. You have a great opportunity in your position.
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 817
    sing with the TLM on a Requiem on All Souls' Day and promote it as an opportunity to sing it in its intended context and not just a concert

    I’m going to stop you right here. Most of the most popular and commonly sung Requiems were not written to be sung in a liturgical setting, nor are they liturgically appropriate (ie: too long, highly operatic). Furthermore, not all the texts are accurate and approved for liturgical use (artistic liberties have been taken). They were written to be sung as religious concerts and that is where the majority of them belong.
    Thanked by 2novusgordo francis
  • m_r_taylor
    Posts: 399
    While that is a potential pitfall I would presume Caleferink, who mentions this as a recommendation - and the TLM choir in discussion - would already be quite cognizant of which Requiem compositions to choose for the sacred liturgy.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,734
    yeah also frankly I’ve got strong opinions, or preferences, or whatever, but this just comes off as needlessly difficult. We’re doing the Victoria Missa pro defunctis. There is a long list here of Renaissance settings (in fact a couple of posts + CPDL browsing is how I find new repertoire ideas). If I could get our act together, I would like to hire the local baroque musicians and do the Campra.

    Thanked by 1Chant_Supremacist
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,285
    Most of the most popular and commonly sung Requiems were not written to be sung in a liturgical setting.

    OH?
    Which ones specifically are you thinking of? I mean, besides non-requiem requiems like Brahms, Delius, Britten etc. I really don't know of any settings using the liturgical text that were not intended for the liturgy.

    The problem is not of intent; it's in the way that the Requiem has changed over the years. For some early Requiems (Ockeghem, Certon) some movements have different texts, in which case you replace them with chant or another setting. The rubrics are a bigger issue; the Church has gotten (needlessly) restrictive over the past century or so. If you accept De Musica Sacra et Sacra Liturgia as the last word for the Missal of Pius V, you really can't do an accompanied Requiem, even just with organ. You could sneak it by if the organ is just doubling the voices. But forget about the Mozart (or even Durufle!). It's worse in the Missal of Paul VI because of the changed texts and the elimination of the Sequence (which is a BIG chunk of the Mozart).

    Law enters when Taste leaves. In Cleveland, they did the Mozart in a TLM for Pope Benedict, and it was very moving, but I found myself thinking that Pius X had a point. And nobody was a Karen about the rubrics, because it was for the Pope. And orchestral Requiems are not "commonly sung" in the liturgy, for the obvious reason. I think that singing a polyphonic Requiem together on All Souls is a great idea. And it doesn't have to be difficult. The Zucchini Missa pro Defunctis is very easy, the Casciolini not much harder. With the Renaissance ones you get the scoring problems you get in all Renaissance polyphony, but if you can work around that, some are pretty simple, Nor would one have to do the whole thing (and probably could not, if liturgical).
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,734
    The Campra is the best orchestral setting imho.

    For our Masses in October and November (well, I hope October, but it might just be the latter) we’re doing the Victoria à 4, but I have saved a thread from here on the various polyphonic Masses that folks have done.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 817
    OH?
    Which ones specifically are you thinking of? I mean, besides non-requiem requiems like Brahms, Delius, Britten etc. I really don't know of any settings using the liturgical text that were not intended for the liturgy.

    -Verdi’s Requiem
    -Faure’s Requiem
    -Gossec’s Requiem
    -Berlioz’s Requiem
    -Dvořák’s Requiem
  • We do a fair bit of crosspollination as-is. I agree that a parish like this is a special opportunity.

    For All Souls we do Victoria's Requiem a 4. This year a small polyphonic choir from the community will join us, actually, which I'm pleased with. They're not Catholic, but their goal is to understand their repertoire better by singing it in a liturgical setting. My goal is for them all to convert. I'll invite choir members from the NO too, but the challenge is that they aren't typically big practisers.
    Thanked by 2Andrew_Malton tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,734
    Heck yeah. I love that. I’m actually going to take a page from Doug O’Neill’s playbook and announce our choir when sending my announcement to other choral directors and the choral professors here (I need one more pro, I need volunteers, and we need subs/ringers). And I might make mention of this sort of thing.
  • novusgordo
    Posts: 36
    The rubrics are a bigger issue; the Church has gotten (needlessly) restrictive over the past century or so. If you accept De Musica Sacra et Sacra Liturgia as the last word for the Missal of Pius V, you really can't do an accompanied Requiem, even just with organ.
    I'm going to disagree quite vehemently with Jeffrey Quick on this one, and assert that De musica sacra is not only correct, but self-evidently so. As a matter of tradition, the Roman liturgy emphasizes the sombre and penitential nature of certain days and seasons by removing certain adornments, and in particular by withdrawing the use of instruments to adorn the singing of the liturgical texts. As such, I'd argue that the use of instruments at the Mass of the Dead feels profoundly "wrong", especially in the context of the usus antiquior where even the Alleluia and Gloria Patri are suppressed.

    If you want to do the big symphonic Requiems, do them in the context of a para-liturgical service with readings and orations. (This also has the virtue of putting grand, opulent settings like Mozart's and non-settings like Faure's back on the table.)
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,734
    No, but yes

    The days after Septuagesima inclusive and vigils have a tract, but only Masses of the saints (not that of Christmas for example) lose the organ by rubric when the dalmatic is used in the traditional schema. The Requiem Mass is not penitential as is Good Friday, not even on All Souls, so while I understand a prohibition on solo organ, it is a bit inconsistent with the external ornaments used.

    I am very clear on what I think of the Fauré, but as I’ve said again and again: the original Caeremoniale Episcoporum banned figured music, that is, polyphony, at the Mass and office of the dead. This is obviously something ignored by precisely everyone. While the original CE would have banned, certainly, organ alternatim with chant in these contexts, a) accompanying chant as we do today was not really the subject of the rubrics b) it’s hardly objectionable (all things being equal) c) only pontifical Terce really ought to have organ accompaniment, out of the Little Hours; Compline often did, presumably because it was popular with the faithful, but it wasn’t the spirit, even on the biggest feasts. The church also gradually expanded organ on the rose Sundays (to Vespers on Saturday and Sunday as well as the Mass.)

    Anyway I’m just not that pressed, and I don’t even sing the proper’s accompanied other than most sequences when possible (I like it, but it’s hardly necessary).
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,285
    I'm going to disagree quite vehemently with Jeffrey Quick on this one

    mkay, I'll let you do that, lol.
    Let me expand on my issues, and you'll find there's actually very little disagreement.
    1.) DMS constitutes rubric creep. If read literally, it eliminates all use of the organ, and thus use of anything requiring one (Having an independent part, or even to play basso continuo.). It obsoletes the entire corpus of Requiem settings written for the liturgy, and ban on what the Church has done, on what "previous generations have considered holy" If your group can't sing well unaccompanied, no polyphony for you!
    2.) DMS is inconsistently applied. If you're the Pope, or a dead member of the CMAA, you get Mozart (Durufle, Faure etc.). This is not that out of line with tradition, since most of this music was written for the nobility. but then, the restraint was fiscal, rather than rubrical. The problem with inconsistent law is that it weakens the rule of law, because people no longer think it important. I could live with a ban on non-organ instruments, with the permission of organ made explicit. (It's not sufficiently implicit in the "Organ in Lent to support the choir" loophole.)
    3. Re the idea of banning polyphony at funerals, my chief issue with that is that mentioned in #1: we did it for centuries (since Dufay), so why are we getting all prissy now? Was the Church WRONG about music? BUT: aside from that, I could make a case for chant-only Requiems on the basis of sumptuary laws. We are all dust. Benedict XVI is dust, William Mahrt is dust, I'm dust-in-training; what's special about any given clump-of-dust? Is it fitting that somebody get a fancier funeral because more people with resources loved him?

    "Big symphonic Requiems" in the liturgy are actually not an issue with me, given how rare they are. But what about Casciolini, Clemens, Dufay (if we ever find it), or Fr. X's setting for 2 equal voices and organ or harmonium?
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,285
    -Verdi’s Requiem
    -Faure’s Requiem
    -Gossec’s Requiem
    -Berlioz’s Requiem
    -Dvořák’s Requiem


    Faure: Premiere at Église de la Madeleine in Paris. It was performed for the funeral of the architect Joseph Lesoufaché, with Fauré serving as organist and likely conductor. (the expanded version was not premiered in the liturgy.)

    It's also the only one on your list that I've ever heard used in the liturgy. The rest, as you said were not. Any why would we use nonliturgical music in the liturgy? Agreed, they aren't appropriate; they'd be the tail wagging the liturgical dog.

    I'm still trying to figure out how we got from "Do a Requiem with both choirs" to "You'd have to do one everybody knows, with orchestra, and that's just wrong." Has the Missa pro defunctis really become such a dead letter in the Church, that the only composed Requiems anyone knows are those done in concert halls?
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  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,277
    Has the Missa pro defunctis really become such a dead letter in the Church, that the only composed Requiems anyone knows are those done in concert halls?


    Yes. How many times have I done a "real" Requiem at a funeral. None...And I have been singing since 1968.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,734
    I mean the prohibition was observed in the breech and finally removed, but the classic text is clear: figured music is not allowed, only chant.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,973
    The fact that Ildebrando Pizzetti's setting remains neglected in all of this is depressing.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,277
    The fact that Ildebrando Pizzetti's setting remains neglected in all of this is depressing.


    That score has sat on my desk for years. Just never had the forces to do it. But I adore it.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • CaleferinkCaleferink
    Posts: 464
    Geez, never thought I'd create such a firestorm by offering a mere suggestion of how to unite the two choirs.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,699
    That happens here, a terrain with non-obvious dry kindling.

    Sorry.