The choir loft really is a ministry space—a sacred space set apart for the work of music in the liturgy. But that doesn’t mean it has to feel cold or impersonal.

At St. Mary’s, when I sang in the choir, we developed something like an “extended family” dynamic. Everyone understood their role and responsibility, but rehearsals often felt like a family gathering—warm, supportive, and rooted in something shared. We had a choir picnic in the summer and a Christmas party in the winter, and many times the pastor even footed the bill as a way of showing appreciation.

I think that balance is really what you’re aiming for: a space that is clearly ordered toward ministry, but still fosters genuine community in the right way.

One other thought regarding the former director—situations like that are always delicate.
If it were me, I’d try to handle that mostly one-on-one, and in a genuinely pastoral way. There’s often a lot of history and investment there, and that’s something worth respecting. In many ways, someone like that can be a real gift to the parish, especially in terms of institutional memory and care for the program.

At the same time, it does help to gently but clearly establish roles.

And if, after that, things don’t improve, it’s completely reasonable to bring the pastor into the conversation—not in a confrontational way, but just to make sure expectations are clearly supported and consistent from the top.

The priest is supportive and means well, but seems unable, or unwilling to manage this negative behavior, saying "they boss me around all the time and I just ignore it." However, in order to run a music ministry in service to the liturgy and church, I cannot allow entitled, domineering volunteers to "boss me around" and "just ignore it", and deflect with humor, which is the Priest's go-to coping mechanism.

Bad behavior being ignored is not reasonable to expect of everyone all the time.

Your input is most welcome. I don't think most of these choir members actually realize that the diocesan code of conduct actually applies to volunteers, as well as clergy and staff, so I anticipate some surprise at these guidelines.

I implicitly include the code of conduct: volunteers are indeed subjected to it, but non-W2s are not. However since it really is basic professional standards and the norms of Christian charity, severe and/or repeated lapses will lead to dismissal.

I would also make mention of the loft and rehearsal room expectations. Like, we don’t have food. Leaving snacks for longer rehearsals was a big problem in the past, and my pastor was adamant that no one should eat or leave food there. Water is allowed, but not hot or other beverages. Even sugar-free soda is off limits (it surely isn’t good for the paint, and we do have new paint in the loft, in addition to the potential scandal).

Our volunteers are pretty well behaved. Chatter is a problem. But I’m also part of that so I’m going to work on that as well. Our pros are great. I have pretty much no complaints. Arriving early is also something to work on: downbeat time is not the same as arrival time. If you can manage with five minutes or less, great. I don’t police that. But hopefully our choir rehearsal starting at 7 (versus schola at 6) and having rehearsals on weeknights and not only on Sunday mornings or before Mass will alleviate this problem a bit.

This problem sounds unsolvable. You are the director. Volunteers serve at your discretion.

If the pastor will not allow you to remove her, you should hit the job market. You should easily be able to find better working conditions.

Realistically, either she goes or you go. So I would suggest brainstorming ways to say that to your pastor as smoothly as possible.

Sorry, I just re-read your initial post. It's a great advantage that you have already started a schola. Could it be possible to add more good and cooperative singers (by audition only) to the schola and gradually fade out the other choir? Or have the "bad" choir sing once a month or every two weeks? Start a kid's chant-only choir which could sing Mass once a month? More Masses with cantors instead of choir?

Might work or not... But maybe the "bad" choir will feel less "important" if they realize you have lots of other options.

Am I mean? Good. LOL. (That's what I tell my grandkids too LOL.)

Thanks to all who have weighed in. Before I start a job search, I'm going to try to make things work especially since I've already established a nice chamber choir, and I bought a house! This is a rural area, and another job would involve a commute. The toxic, bullying ways of the former director and her little group of friends cannot be addressed if there's nothing holding them accountable in writing, right? And much of this boils down to education on what proper choir expectations actually look like, since the old group was kind of an insular, provincial glorified hymn-singing social clique led by a talented amatuer with, as she says, 2 years of piano lessons.

It also seems that with a Priest who is a Parish Administrator for life (after being moved from another parish) who's supportive and grateful, as he says, because donations are up due to higher quality music, he is mainly trying to keep the peace for his own career survival, and so I will need to "manage upward", respectfully of course. Because I've disclosed bullying/toxic behavior, along w/ the Priest's career status, these draft guidelines are redacted:

“Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all the earth.
Worship the Lord with gladness; come into his presence with singing.”
Psalm 100:1–2

XXX Choir Guidelines are grounded in the principles set forth in Sing to the Lord: Music in Divine Worship, United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, 2007, and diocesan standards, and are conditions for participation.

Mission The music ministry at XXX Church exists to glorify God and serve the parish community. We honor the gift of participation through thoughtful preparation, humility, and teamwork. We are called to reflect the love of Christ - the foundation for effective musical service.

The Choirs provide a diverse repertoire for the parish. The Full Choir contributes music composed for larger ensembles, while Spirit Singers, our chamber choir, adds music written for smaller groups.

Code of Conduct We are governed by the Diocese of XXX Code of Pastoral Conduct, with requirements for respectful and ethical behavior among all volunteers, staff and clergy. Link: XXX Diocese Code of Conduct

Director’s Role Per Sing to the Lord: Music in Divine Worship USCCB, 2007, and diocesan standards, all matters regarding musical preparation and execution fall under the exclusive purview of the Director. https://archden.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/USCCB-Sing-To-The-Lord.pdf

Communication and Problem Solving We communicate with one another in a spirit of respect, kindness, and Christian charity. While differences of opinion may, from time to time, arise in any group, most issues can easily be resolved through common sense, a spirit of prayerful teamwork, and proper communication. Therefore, all questions, concerns, or suggestions must be brought promptly and directly to the Director so that a time may be set outside of rehearsal to allow for discussion and resolution.

Rehearsal Schedule Regular attendance builds strong and unified ensembles. When in session, rehearsals are held on Wednesday evenings in Parish Hall from 6:00 – 7:00 pm. Please plan to arrive by 5:55 so that rehearsals can begin promptly at 6pm. Spirit Singers may be called at 5:30, or other times as needed.

During Rehearsal Please bring a pencil to mark your music. Discussions unrelated to the music should be saved for the mid-point break or after rehearsal.

Choir Information is sent primarily by email, which is also used for sharing recordings and study materials. Major announcements also appear in the bulletin and are shared at the end of Mass. You may also call or text xxxxxxx; these messages are transcribed to my email, allowing me to read them while in the classroom or my studio.

Before Mass Please arrive early for warm-ups and final preparations.

________________, 2026

Well, the document is better than I thought it would be, but I wouldn't enjoy receiving it. It's stuff any musician or normal adult would know. It's like kindergarten.

Also, many people don't read documents. I was on a grand jury once and the judge gave us a very important document explaining the procedures. Nobody read it. (I did, of course, because I took my responsibility seriously). During several sessions, I made reference to the document and people were lost. Pretty amazing.

Anyway, a document will not solve the "clique" problem.

Good luck!

Well, the document is better than I thought it would be, but I wouldn't enjoy receiving it. It's stuff any musician or normal adult would know. It's like kindergarten.

Given the behavior I've seen in church, sometimes I think adults need to be treated like kindergartners. Gum-chewing, bringing drinks (not water) to Mass, using phones during Mass, having conversations about where kids are going to college during the sign of [lack of] peace, dressing like they just finished garbage picking at the local dump...

I've changed the section on communication. (Background: old Director sings alto, with her friends she undermines, gossips, disrupts, etc.)

Proper Communication is the cornerstone of our Music Ministry. We covenant to a culture of life-giving speech, recognizing that our words have the power to build up our Ministry or to tear it down. We covenant to refrain from unwholesome talk, backbiting & gossip. While differences of opinion may, from time to time, arise in any group, all issues will be resolved through the proper organizational channel - a conference with our Director. A time will be set outside of rehearsal for thoughtful discussion & prayerful resolution. No exceptions.

Ignoring an occasional sarcastic remark would be one thing. Ignoring frequent and open challenges is not a sign of character and personal strength, it's a sign of weakness. Groups of people are a lot like groups of dogs in this way and even nice cooperative people will subconsciously take note of weakness and it will hurt discipline. I'm not a huge lover of guideline documents either, I would recommend immediately confronting subordinate and other bad behaviour.

MatthewRoth, pray tell how the guidelines will stop the clique and their bad behavior?

Again, I GET IT: there are 2 schools of thought on guidelines. With all due respect to those who don't like written guidelines, what works in your situation will not work here. I didn't start this thread as a debate on whether or not to have guidelines. I started it to get feedback on content. I've been in the trenches for a long time, and this is what I believe is necessary in this particular situation.

I can't possibly explain every nuance of this situation in the limitations of an online forum, but this arises because of a very poor tradition of extremely low expectations, very little actual structure, or any decent musical standards for years, an entitled, highly insular and provincial culture, with very little real knowledge on what a music ministry and choir culture actually entails, with a Priest who doesn't have the authority of a Pastor (parish admin for life after being moved) who enables the dysfunction because he's too afraid to lead because he doesn't want to be moved again. For me this document is a covenant, not a set of guidelines, written to facilitate:

1) education
2) formation a culture
3) putting the really bad actors on "notice" (I suspect once a few of the worst offenders see how things are going to be, in writing, suddenly their "bluff" will be called.
4) giving me "cover" through the diocese code of conduct and Sing To The Lord if I need to confront anyone.

It's hard to describe how low the expectations really have been in this parish for quite sometime. You can't expect people without a prior frame of reference to a quality music ministry to just magically "get it" and behave by ignoring the problem.

With all due respect to those who don't like written guidelines, what works in your situation will not work here.

Yup, as we’ve tried to say. And sometimes it’s not about stopping people, although that’s a bonus: it’s about having a spine and kicking out people, or making them quit of their own accord when a change is made that they dislike.

The priest also needs to grow a spine. Priests can ignore it and easily tell people to leave the parish, which my pastor has done. But it is much harder for his subordinates to just ignore it, and as has been pointed out a million times, many people need to be told what is and isn’t acceptable. Or they know and don’t care, but everyone else needs reassuring.

It’s also hard when you have a culture of starting late to suddenly insist on starting on time and that consistently arriving at downbeat time is not acceptable to name one persistent issue.

Also I don’t like wasting rehearsal time with confronting bad behavior. I would cut the chattering out, but sometimes people get feisty during certain periods of their lives. It’s not great, but we basically ran the clock out on one problem that is now much easier to handle.

FWIW every job has a handbook including rules that apply everywhere, not just internal rules for things like IT.

I just know that this particular priest was moved from another parish, notified he'd be a Parish Admin for life, never a Pastor. He means well but is conflict avoidant, and while he is supportive of me, doesn't openly confront bad actors. He is also highly neuro-divergent (likely the reason he was moved/made lifelong parish admin, never a Pastor) and I realized/accepted I must not only manage the toxicity of certain bullies in the choir, but also (graciously) manage HIM upward.

I know, I know, some of you are screaming quit and get out. Were I back in the city, we wouldn't even be having this convo. I would have been out the door immediately, on to bigger, better things. But I'm here. I moved out to a small town, bought a house (which is actually affordable here) and determined to do whatever I can to make it work, before just giving up and working elsewhere.

I believe the Priest will support me, but he doesn't have the innate skills or backbone to lead, so I must lead, to the best of my ability. He says donations are up due to better quality music; the music program has grown since I've taken over, and though this is not a comfortable situation for me, I believe we're going in the right direction. It's taking everything I have in terms of prayer, fortitude, forgiveness, calm, and resilience.

Were I back in the city, we wouldn't even be having this convo. I would have been out the door immediately, on to bigger, better things. But I'm here. I moved out to a small town,

Which means the toxic team are also in the same small town, with the same lack of other options.

The priest telling them to go away is not an option.

The priest telling them "you cannot be involved in choir" may well put them in a place where they can be even more damaging to you, but with you having less visibility of what they are up to and less change to influence it.

I get that it's horrible as the moment. But the advice to keep you friends close and your enemies closer is good, in my expereince.

Also, so does the bishop: someone who cannot be a pastor should not be a diocesan priest. Harsh but true.

Not true.

Not true.

Why? You should at least argue instead of just saying “not true.” A diocesan priest should be a pastor. That is how the church works. Anything else is a deviation from that, and diocesan priests should be able to move in and out of assignments where they aren’t canonical pastors or something very similar (essentially a post where they’re rector or chaplain and administer all or most sacraments and handle the business affairs reporting only to the diocese in that aspect) to one where they are. I know of a priest who does not like being a pastor, and that’s a problem!

This priest can’t do that, and honestly I’m not sure how he’s able to do even this with such severe limitations.

Why? You should at least argue instead of just saying “not true.” A diocesan priest should be a pastor. That is how the church works.

That is not how the Church works and there is no basis in canon law for your claim. Some priests may not be equipped to be pastors, as may be the case with the OP's church, but that doesn't mean diocesan priests are to be stripped of their general priestly ministry for that reason.

In a perfect world, a diocesan priest would be a pastor. I go outside for any type of pastoral care, because while he can be kind and compassionate, he is not consistent, and consistency is one of my core, personal values. But he has his strengths also, and there's a severe priest shortage, especially in our diocese. My understanding of canon law is that there is a place for the priest parish administrator, but they are kept on a very short leash.

My understanding is that this priest was moved from another parish due to some issues and told he'd be parish admin for life. It appears the diocese manages our parish. He is highly neuro-divergent. Admittedly, not a doctor here, but as an educator and a parent, appears to be highly unregulated ADHD. In order to get anything done, I have to "manage upward" (graciously).