Corpus Christi Watershed website is now subscription-based
  • davido
    Posts: 1,207
    Everybody is a critic.
    But let’s look at what Jeff has done. He single-handedly created a whole church music ecosystem to fit his preferences. Responsorial Psalms, Alleluias, multiple hymnals, a pew Missal for BOTH OF and EF.
    Chabanel psalms is the main collection in competition with Respond and Acclaim (due to being free, in part). Royce Nickel’s collection is great too, but available because Jeff initially platformed it. His new Chaumont chants were a parallel resource to Fr Weber’s books. The Jogues Missal is currently the only hardbound, musically appropriate, chant based missal on the market (ILP’s psalms are terrible).
    You can run a reverent parish music program with just CCW resources. And till moments ago, he had offered it freely to anyone in the world. Now he offers it to the whole world for less that $100 a year? It’s still basically free.
  • From a Religious Perspective: While I understand the need to support oneself not everyone in the Catholic World has the means to spend money on resources. Free Chant Resources such as CCWatershed before and Gregobase for Example, have been invaluable to our community when we dont have money to buy liturgical books that can become very expensive. And a pay wall is just not something we are able to commit to. I think there has to be balance. If everything had a paywall there would be a lot of people unable to take advantage of resources. On the other hand I understand the need for individual composer to protect their music. But just to remember that no everyone in the Catholic World is able to contribute to such things, and so it is valuable to maintain free sources in places here or there.
  • @trentonjconn The Institute of Christ the King and Priest has them for Extraordinary Form and Musica Sacra obviously has them in their Resource Section. There is also the PDFs on Archive that can be found sometimes. Also there are some spanish sources online that have them.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,261
    There is a weird anti-capitalism bias on this board.

    Not an anti-capitalist bias, but an IP-sceptical bias.

    For you newbies out there, Austrian economist Jeffrey Tucker was managing editor of our journal Sacred Music from 2006 to 2014, and he definitely left a strong imprint on our organizational culture. You aren't going to find anyone more capitalist. But there's a strain in libertarianism that regards intellectual property as something that only exists because the State created it, that it's a literal privilege ("private law"). I'm not so much concerned with what "should be" as what IS, and in a world filled with people profiting from the law, I very much like getting my 2¢ as a composer.

    As Catholics, we also have the issue of simony to address. Performing rights organizations don't collect for performance in the liturgy, which to me is right and just. But a capitalist would want that money. We complain about USCCB copyrights, and I agree that the texts of the liturgy should be free for all to use in the liturgy. But shouldn't that labor be protected? For that matter, how many of us have copied permanently out of print but technically in-copyright music? "Let he who is without sin..."

    I've made my own music available for download as a kind of desperate Hail Mary pass of my career. There is little market for Latin-texted liturgical music that requires a moderately-competent choir. If I put it out there, it increases the chances of use in a concert, and BMI payments for one performance far outstrip any mechanical royalties.

    And as a former librarian, I see digital propagation as a strategy for preservation, and preservation of liturgical music has been...not good.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,630
    FWIW, IP (like corporate charters) is a privilege created by the state - it's not "free market", as it were. (In the case of the Anglosphere, the basic statutory roots of copyright go back to Queen Anne, and then before that to royal grants of monopolies for printing music to ...Thomas Tallis and William Byrd...by Queen Elizabeth I.)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,261
    Trentonjconn, since you asked about the Kyriale scores, they are available individually from CMAA. All the pieces in "The Parish Book of Chant" can be downloaded as individual PDF scores, and demo recordings are on-line.

    See https://churchmusicassociation.org/pbc1
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,261
    For CMAA, distributing most of our resources for free (and promoting other organizations which do the same) isn't really based on a policy preference about intellectual property: it's our way of removing a common obstacle to the adoption of sacred music.
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 812
    The Kyriale scores are available from CMAA. All the pieces in "The Parish Book of Chant" can be downloaded as individual PDF scores, and demo recordings are on-line.


    Beautiful, exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,579
    However Jeff has a variety of accompaniments etc. and practice materials. And yeah; the Gregorian masses and the Credos and other chants were conveniently listed out individually. The ICRSP website also lists them that way. But again, it’s the extra materials that matter.

    David, my budget right now for extra music expenses is zero. This really bites. I mean, I could pay for it out of pocket and then get it in the parish budget for next year (that is, for July 2027) but I’d still be on the hook for two months then a year’s subscription out of pocket without any transition period: many if not most parishes and church institutions start their budgets on July 1. That would have been a good time to transition.

    Of course most of us are used to running at a deficit and no one bats an eye, but right now I can’t just ask for things: the request will be summarily denied. :(
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • PeterJ
    Posts: 92
    I can appreciate the upset in many of the posts here. May I observe though that:
    1. Circumstances appear to have forced CCW’s hand. There is no reason to doubt that CCW/JO’s goal has always been to keep CCW content free-to-use for the good of the church (and in particular to help the many musicians out there who have no/limited budget).
    2. The overall principle of charging for access is not unjust.
    3. One has the sense that this been introduced in a hurry, again perhaps from perceived necessity. This is not an organisation with lots (if any?) staff and resources. As such, can we not assume for now that CCW/JO are yet to work through all the implications, and as such any wider injustices that may or may not flow from this decision are inadvertent? Might they very well get remediated in due course (eg via some content being free to access)?

    JO has obviously poured huge amounts of his time and energy into this - and other related projects - for the good of the church. JO must of all people be enormously disappointed that CCW has not been able to keep going as a completely free-to-use resource. As one who has found CCW very helpful I would like to express my gratitude here that CCW, JO and other contributors at least tried to make this free-to-use and, for a good long while, succeeded.
  • Circumstances appear to have forced CCW’s hand.


    What circumstances?

    Seriously. CCW's blog entry about this states:

    It came to their attention that a handful of loyal, generous donors have been funding everything for all these years—while the rest of the community consumes what’s offered without extending support. The argument was made that it was unjust for the burden to fall on the shoulders of only a few donors, since we receive millions of visits.


    These aren't what I would call "circumstances." I would call "circumstances" to be some change from normal that hurts the bottom line. Such as increased costs of web hosting, having a large annual donor stop giving, etc. Or needing funds to support a new project, like a deep cleanup of the website's architecture.

    Any of the hypothetical circumstances I've listed here would be viewed sympathetically by the liturgical music community. If it's one of these things, or something along similar lines, Jeff should tell us.

    What Jeff has told us so far is not a change in circumstances, but a change in value judgement. According to the blog entry, Jeff and the board have decided it was unjust for a few to pay for access for everyone.

    No one wants to assume bad intentions. But with an explanation that vague, we are left to our own imagination to fill in the blanks, and reasonable people may conclude that the best case scenario still seems shady.

    [I don't know if you're aware, but a further explanation was sent in an e-mail on May 16: that the usual spring fund appeal was not done, due to being too busy; and that the organization consequently had a debt of $2K. That is the circumstance the board was dealing with. Whether or not they chose the best way to address it, the shortfall in donations does sound like a genuine financial problem, even though the immediate debt was not large. --admin]
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,579
    Frankly, maybe my standards are too high, but if you work in the church even in a nonprofit that is not officially Catholic and is independent of a diocese, a religious order, a society of apostolic life etc., then you should be far less hasty about things, doubly so when I'm already asked to filter my thoughts (not only because of charity, but because perception of tone or being "nice" matters). I feel like we should not have to beg, and as I've said multiple times: Jeff has burned enough bridges that putting (former) contributors and also users in a position to come contact him, who absolves himself of all responsibility, is really not workable.

    What Jeff has told us so far is not a change in circumstances, but a change in value judgement. According to the blog entry, Jeff and the board have decided it was unjust for a few to pay for access for everyone.


    right, which, like anything else in the church, is already how it is, and it's the same with simialr projects, but people have also donated time, effort, and resources to CCW.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,630
    Matthew

    FWIW, your standards are not too high.
  • PeterJ
    Posts: 92
    Yes I am serious, contemporaryworship92. The hints are there about increasing financial strain - “since 2006, American prices have gone up significantly” and “We have no endowment; we have no major donors; we run no advertisements; we have no savings.” If you are a charity trustee those two things add up to a serious problem you cannot just sit on.

    I appreciate the post leads with a value judgment about the many people who use the site without donating. Certainly that is unfortunate and, as I say, I’m not trying to belittle the genuine upset here.
  • The hints are there about increasing financial strain - “since 2006, American prices have gone up significantly”


    What costs are increasing? A properly run charity should be able to say something like "web hosting has gone up 25% in the last few years while donations remained even."

    We have no endowment; we have no major donors; we run no advertisements; we have no savings.


    This doesn't answer the question. What do you need money for?
  • Charles_Weaver
    Posts: 223
    A properly run charity


    But is CCWatershed a charity?
    Thanked by 1davido
  • Charles_Weaver
    Posts: 223
    I mean I know they are funded by donations, but is every charitable organization a "charity" in that sense? As a donor to CCW, do you really want granular accountability for how your money is spent? Obviously a lot of it goes to buying obscure old books and hymnals and then scanning them.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,579
    Even the Divinum Officium folks that have even more of a shoestring operation can figure out their hosting costs and a) figure out how to get them down and b) not change the whole model on a dime (lol?)
    Thanked by 2FSSPmusic ian_udell
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 517
    But is CCWatershed a charity?
    According to Jeff Ostrowski himself: "We’re a tiny 501(c)3 public charity which exists solely by the generosity of small donors." But there he also says, "One predominant 'mission' or 'objective' of mine is to make sure the entire website always remains free, without even requiring a login." All that's being asked for in this thread is honesty, accountability, and transparency.
    I was elected president by the board of directors. Like all officers, I serve at the pleasure of the board. (I’m not a board member.)
    The people now being expected to pay for these resources ought to have a right to know who's calling the shots, period. If the current president can't stick to his own stated mission and objectives, maybe the board should consider replacing him with someone else. A comparison was made with CMAA membership, but I find it inapt because the forum and many resources remain totally free and available without a login, and also because the CMAA board members are listed in every issue of Sacred Music as well as on the website. Ostrowski plays too many games, which I why I got so fed up with him and his tomfoolery.
  • I was a contributor whose (very few, to be fair) articles remain published, and my bio still lives on the site. I wasn't notified of the decision, either in deliberation, or prior to public announcement. I admire with gratitude what CCW has contributed to the sacred music landscape, and it's unquestionably significant. The "meta" mission is laudable.

    I also spent a decade in executive leadership in a nonprofit (unrelated to sacred music).

    I'd like to know who is on the board. I'd like something more than the 990-N (2025 is available via the IRS, and the organization remains in good standing). And yes, I'd like to know where the dollars are spent. Granularly. I practically ran a nonprofit. Choosing to operate as a nonprofit demands transparency, regardless of scale. The board composition. Basic financials. Any donor ought to be able to review these. How else can we decide where to direct our charity?

    I wish everyone involved well, and I pray that God's will be done. CCW has been a true blessing to sacred music in recent decades. It would be lamentable to see it fade away in a poorly executed administrative decision, whether born of genuine hope, desperation, ignorance, or any other motive or possible shortcoming.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,261
    The old data available on candid.org for 2006-2012 is interesting: in one year donations surpassed $500k. If I'm reading that form right, most of the revenue went to salaries, contract labor, and other compensation, and probably that's reasonable when the group's main activity was in producing videos. After 2010, income from publishing rose but donations fell off, so spending on salaries declined to around $90k in 2012.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • The old data available on candid.org for 2006-2012 is interesting: in one year donations surpassed $500k. If I'm reading that form right, most of the revenue went to salaries, contract labor, and other compensation, and probably that's reasonable when the group's main activity was in producing videos. After 2010, income from publishing rose but donations fell off, so spending on salaries declined to around $90k in 2012.


    That's a massively larger operation than I would have anticipated. Is 2012 the most recent data we have?
  • lmassery
    Posts: 438
    I support musicians being paid for their work, but my biggest concern is the free psalms. It was the only place to point people to for free Psalms.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,579
    Yes. They don’t have a full Form 990 after that point (2012).

    Shoot even my parish music budget demands granularity. In ordinary circumstances so long as the money can be spent, the request is approved: I’ve never personally made any ridiculous requests, I keep receipts etc. But if I don’t, I don’t get reimbursed or the charge is refused and I have to pay it.

    I wouldn’t expect to see all of those little details myself, but someone should be reporting on it, and the big picture item like Costs went up x% from Y$ to Z$ should be front and center.
  • francis
    Posts: 11,362
    It was the only place to point people to for free Psalms.


    However, with the new copyright enforcements and approvals coming from the upper end, i can imagine most of that has to be removed, approved and then reposted. Talk about a beauracratic nightmare, well…

    I know I have said it numerous times, but supporting the efforts of the NO is a dead end… and this is proving to be so for that of music in that regard.
    Thanked by 2BGP tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,579
    However, with the new copyright enforcements and approvals coming from the upper end, i can imagine most of that has to be removed, approved and then reposted. Talk about a beauracratic nightmare, well…


    I realize that it might also be hard to get concrete figures, but if that's part of the need for a sustained source of income, well, OK, just mention it. But maybe get out of the business? Or make the melodies available, without text that needs to be licensed.
  • Bobby Bolin
    Posts: 435
    Thanked by 2lmassery davido
  • francis
    Posts: 11,362
    Or make the melodies available, without text that needs to be licensed.
    please explain how this could be possible in a working environment.
  • Aristotle EsguerraAristotle Esguerra
    Posts: 1,189
    But there's a strain in libertarianism that regards intellectual property as something that only exists because the State created it, that it's a literal privilege ("private law"). I'm not so much concerned with what "should be" as what IS, and in a world filled with people profiting from the law, I very much like getting my 2¢ as a composer.

    Given the boundless documented strangeness that exists in the realm of quantum physics, I have come to regard this notion as utterly erroneous...
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 3,289
    I wish everyone involved well, and I pray that God's will be done. CCW has been a true blessing to sacred music in recent decades. It would be lamentable to see it fade away in a poorly executed administrative decision, whether born of genuine hope, desperation, ignorance, or any other motive or possible shortcoming.
    This is my fear, too. As I said, I absolutely relied on CCW early in my career as I was getting my sea legs. Eventual discovery of the CMAA also helped (and still helps) tremendously. I'm sad to think that that huge corpus of material will now remain undiscovered by upcoming musicians who would similarly benefit.

    However, with the new copyright enforcements and approvals coming from the upper end, i can imagine most of that has to be removed, approved and then reposted. Talk about a beauracratic nightmare, well…
    Considering my debacle, I've long wondered how they flew under the radar since their operation had soooo much more visibility than mine. I never said anything for fear of causing the resources to be rescinded for this very reason (usccb intervention). I cannot count how many times I've seen people reference using those psalm settings online. There is going to be some genuine panic in a few parishes.

    ---
    I think there is simply no denying what a tremendous service Jeff has done to the music world the last decade. Regardless of your perception of the man qua man, his labors have been extensive and massively fruitful to countless other directors. But it's also not fair to expect him to labor for "free" indefinitely. I have no idea what sort of salary he has drawn from the non profit, but it still cannot be huge.

    I'm sympathetic to those who cry foul that the things that were offered for free are no longer free; I think this is part of the sticking point. The resources should remain free, even if newly generated content is not. It could have played out other ways, in any case. The whole thing just saddens me. I don't think he's a villain, even if this situation is regrettable. I have spent well north of $1000 on my own web-hosting fees the last few years; those are real dollars out of my real pocket. I'm sure he has real expenses too.

    That said, I can state unequivocally that I have no intention of paywalling my blog posts (few that they are) and intend to continue expanding my free resources section. If anyone here would like to see any of their articles or scans go up in a second alternative place, shoot me a message. I'd be happy to upload resources for free.
  • Marc Cerisier
    Posts: 605
    Considering my debacle, I've long wondered how they flew under the radar since their operation had soooo much more visibility than mine.

    What an interesting point you raise... my conversations with the USCCB indicated that regardless of their ultimate position on who owes them money (i.e. everyone), their interest—and what raises it to the level of involving the lawyers—is when their IP is sold without a licensing agreement in place. To this point CCW was free, therefore no money to squeeze out of a rock. Now that it is not free... could be interesting. I would ask him to remove the single setting I contributed 15 years ago, but he blocked me years ago. Oh well...
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 753
    According to Jeff Ostrowski himself: "We’re a tiny 501(c)3 public charity which

    Now it says it’s a non-profit at the bottom of the CCW website, which is legally different than a charity (at least in Canada).
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,630
    In the US states, non-profit entities are usually classed by default as "public charities" or similar usage. For example, in my state, one would get a corporation charter from the Secretary of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, but also register with the Division of Public Charities of the Office of The Attorney General of The Commonwealth of Massachusetts - the AG's office is responsible for regulation and oversight of solicitation of funds by those entities, while the SoS regulations and oversees the corporate charter and organization side of things.
  • What an interesting point you raise... my conversations with the USCCB indicated that regardless of their ultimate position on who owes them money (i.e. everyone), their interest—and what raises it to the level of involving the lawyers—is when their IP is sold without a licensing agreement in place. To this point CCW was free, therefore no money to squeeze out of a rock. Now that it is not free... could be interesting. I would ask him to remove the single setting I contributed 15 years ago, but he blocked me years ago. Oh well...


    Jeff may not have thought this through.

    Now that he is selling access to his site, the USCCB will likely demand that licensing fees be paid.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,579
    [On the subject of being blocked from seeing CCW's Facebook page]

    Yeah, it's been years for me. Going on 3, if not more. I distinctly recall not seeing the posts, then I saw that I couldn't comment, and then I couldn't search for the page at all. I presume that I'm banned from his personal account too.

    Which, whatever, but I take exception to Jeff then using comments of mine from another group (whether I was right or wrong wasn't the point) to go on a rant about the topic on the blog, which I wouldn't see, because I am blocked from all of the social media: twitter too! That feels a bit personal!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,261
    Well, if I understand it, the custom in scholarly writing, when publishing a critique of someone's views, is to invite the other person, after publication, to offer a reply.

    And certainly with all that has been said here, even though this is a casual discussion, that offer applies here too.

    For what it's worth, my opinion is about the same as PeterJ's, indicated above: that CCW has understandable financial needs and is trying something that they hope will help, and which they have a right to do (with at most minor exceptions, IMHO).

    * * *
    On another topic, contemporaryworship92 wrote:
    the USCCB will likely demand that licensing fees be paid


    It may not be needed on their part: in a few years when The New Lectionary Which Is To Come arrives, psalm settings using the old text will be phased out and become less relevant as an occasion of uncaptured potential revenue. Will most of the current Chabanel Psalms composers want to offer their new settings to the site, now that it's paywalled?
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 517
    when publishing a critique of someone's views
    Again, I can only speak for myself, but most of the above seems more like a critique of conduct than views.

    [If that's how it appears, then maybe some of this discussion doesn't belong here. The Forum Etiquette Guidelines make it clear (Guideline #6: "do not defame") that this isn't a place to accuse individuals of bad behavior. -- admin]
  • The New Lectionary Which Is To Come


    And is this "New Lectionary" in the room with us right now?

    I kid.

    Mostly.
  • The New Lectionary is supposed to follow the Breviary Publication. In fact, most of the hold up with the Breviary was precisely waiting on the translation of the Lectionary to be sure that they actually match unlike the current versions. They already have release dates for the Breviary so Im assuming, work is actually happening for real to get the lectionary out as well. The issue currently being that USCCB closed down their printing press and now has to seek new publishers for all their liturgical books.
    Thanked by 3Liam CHGiffen ian_udell
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,579
    If Jeff wasn’t isolated, and had he not made it impossible to actually figure out who may be responsible for this besides himself, I think that this conversation would be very different. But since he deflected in the way that he did, he’s blocked a lot of us to the point where I get reactions out of people who are much more even-keeled than I am and very good at their jobs as a result, I find it difficult to say that we have to carry on in private.
    Thanked by 2FSSPmusic Charles
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 3,289
    What an interesting point you raise... my conversations with the USCCB indicated that regardless of their ultimate position on who owes them money (i.e. everyone), their interest—and what raises it to the level of involving the lawyers—is when their IP is sold without a licensing agreement in place.
    I was told explicitly "we do not like our IP being out there all over the place for free" when I specifically asked about giving away my psalm settings. The point at which they contacted me, I had already been offering my psalms (exclusively) for free for a few months. I had stopped charging for them all together.

    My contact also stated that "someone from the office of divine worship sent me the link to your website and said 'you should probably shut this down'." (read that again). Make of that what you will. I think you can understand better now why I was rather angry when the whole thing first went down. (I'm pleased to report they have dealt with me gently in the aftermath.)

    I'm told that they are working on a policy to address composers who wish to offer settings for free, although no such policy has been published yet, and I'm sure will take years to manifest unless extreme pressure is exerted externally to force them to issue it sooner than later.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,274
    So...you can give him his money every month or not. This is not the first time this has happened. Mr. Bartlett of Source and Summit gave away his settings of the propers for years. He then chose to no longer make them available and went on to make Illuminare Publications and now S&S. I was frustrated with him when the door closed, but I also knew that he was not making any money. Yes, people do need to feed themselves and their families. I then went on to use Fr. Weber's propers as my stepping stone to the Latin. I bought the books. And his volumes 2,3 and 4 can be found on his website. I continue to use them when needed, but I am moving toward the Latin propers full-time. I am grateful for Mr. Bartlett and for Fr. Weber for their efforts and even CCW. Some of us are old enough to remember that there was a time when there was nothing for tradition-minded musicians. The landscape has definitely improved, though there is still work to do. I am grateful for CPDL and Imslp for the incredible availablity of so many scores that frankly, would not be easily accessed by the ordinary parish musician.

    So, just consider CCW and the subscription as one more evolution. Take it or leave it. Either way, one can make do. Change is inevitable. The question is how you attend to it. You can complain or figure out what you need to do.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,630
    I'm told that they are working on a policy to address composers who wish to offer settings for free, although no such policy has been published yet, and I'm sure will take years to manifest unless extreme pressure is exerted externally to force them to issue it sooner than later.


    Thank you for your service.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,579
    Jeff has always had employment as a music director AFAICT and I think that the comparison to Source and Summit is also somewhat inapt, in particular since the editor is still free, which is a handy tool to proofread anything required for editing Gregobase and scores that I generate from Ben Bloomfield's tool for my own needs, among other uses.
    Thanked by 2FSSPmusic tomjaw
  • Charles_Weaver
    Posts: 223
    For most church musicians I know, including myself, employment as a music director does not provide a living sufficient to raise a family apart from other work.
  • francis
    Posts: 11,362
    Is there “blocking” of each other in the name of Christ? Can we just live in our own method of directing the chant?

    IMVHO, I don’t believe anyone has the best, most authentic, accurate, artistic, historical, (insert other descriptive here) method to PRAY/SING GC.

    If that divides one from the unity we have in Christ, well…
    “And I, brethren, could not speak to you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal. As unto little ones in Christ.

    I gave you milk to drink, not meat: for you were not able as yet. But neither indeed are you now able: for you are yet carnal.

    For, whereas there is among you envying and contention, are you not carnal and walk you not according to man?

    For while one saith: I indeed am of Paul: and another: I am of Apollo: are you not men? What then is Apollo and what is Paul?
    What then is Mocquereau and what is Cardine and what is Mensuralism
    The ministers of him whom you have believed: and to every one as the Lord hath given.

    I have planted, Apollo watered: but God gave the increase.

    Therefore, neither he that planteth is any thing, nor he that watereth: but God that giveth the increase.

    Now he that planteth and he that watereth, are one. And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour.

    For we are God's coadjutors. You are God's husbandry: you are God's building.

    According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation: and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

    For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid: which is Christ Jesus.

    Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble:

    Every man's work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is.

    If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

    If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

    Know you not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

    But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

    Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seem to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

    For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written: I will catch the wise in their own craftiness.

    And again: The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

    Let no man therefore glory in men.

    For all things are yours, whether it be Paul or Apollo or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come. For all are yours.

    And you are Christ's. And Christ is God's.”

  • I found a loop hole: wayback machine. It works.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,579

    For most church musicians I know, including myself, employment as a music director does not provide a living sufficient to raise a family apart from other work.


    Sure. But it seems clear to me how Source and Summit becoming a paid service was a natural evolution for what is offered and the person offering it. It’s a whole ecosystem that rivals the mainstream stuff.

    Whereas Jeff explicitly said that he didn’t want this to be a paid offering or to even require a log-in. So: what happened?
    Thanked by 1FSSPmusic
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,274
    I think that the comparison to Source and Summit is also somewhat inapt,


    For those of us who lived in the dark ages, those propers were great. And then they were not avialable. Many more people used the propers than the editor. Adam had to make money. The comparisom is accurate.

    Perspective, perspective....
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,579
    But it is not, for the reasons that I stated. Jeff might not like it, but cultivating free resources made by or provided by other people in significant part is not a job, and it shouldn’t be your main source of income or an important one supplementing your day job without a significant benefactor and a real structure behind it. In other words, you could do it under the auspices of something like the Catholic Institute of Sacred Music.

    And I’m sorry but whining that too many people use resources without really contributing is just how it goes. If you don’t like it, you shouldn’t work for the Catholic Church.

    Whereas essentially developing an ecosystem to give normies something less bad than OCP with the same ease? Yeah that’s more reasonable to make into your full-time job and asking people to pay.

    Anyway, the editor is free, and nothing at CCW is now free.
    Thanked by 1FSSPmusic
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