Easter Octave Vespers (LOTH)
  • cantarealseñor
    Posts: 2
    Hello all, Christ is risen!

    If a layperson leads Sung Lauds or Vespers during the Easter Octave, do they still use the dismissal with the double alleluia while omitting the greeting and blessing? Or do they use “May the Lord bless us…”
  • monasteryliturgistmonasteryliturgist
    Posts: 557
    No, only an ordained minister uses the Double Alleluia and Blessing.
    A lay person uses the "May the Lord Bless us..."
    Thanked by 1igneus
  • GerardH
    Posts: 660
    Fairly sure there is the option to use Benedicamus Domino, alleluia alleluia per ancient tradition, even with a lay cantor. Exactly where that permission is given, I'm not 100% sure. The tones are given in the Antiphonale Romanum I & II
  • monasteryliturgistmonasteryliturgist
    Posts: 557
    @GerardH unfortunately its not permitted in the new office... i asked about it with the usccb at one point and they said since its not in the Ordo Cantus Officii, its not allowed-in any case our friend is referring to vespers not the minor hours
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,486
    This is where I side-eye hard because this has further clericalized the office in a bad way.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw monasteryliturgist
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 441
    this has further clericalized the office in a bad way

    If you forbid a digression: I prayed LOTH for several years, then switched to the 1960 breviary for about four years before returning to the LOTH. One of the discoveries on returning to the LOTH after an extended experience with its predecessor was how heavily clericalized it is. The pre-Vatican II breviary was really meant to be said by the clergy and religious only, but virtually all of its euchology conceives the church as a single undifferentiated body praying together. The LOTH, on the contrary, is recommended also to the lay faithful, but (or therefore?) its euchology skips no opportunity to stress the fundamental difference between the clergy and laypeople, particularly (but not exclusively) in intercessions. The introduction of the Common of Pastors, separating the clergy as a completely separate VIP category from the traditional Common of Confessors, also speaks volumes.
    Thanked by 3davido MatthewRoth IanL
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,486
    Yes, and while it may not be required in choir, the stole is usually worn, and it would be essentially obligatory if an alb is worn for those in holy orders, who never omit the stole with the alb.

    There's nothing about the office which requires priestly power. Now, blessings, sure, and deacons do not celebrate solemn offices (Lauds and Vespers) because they traditionally cannot bless constitutively, which is required for the incensation of the altar. But deacons, minor clerics, and certainly nuns or sisters may and do/did serve as hebdom.
  • monasteryliturgistmonasteryliturgist
    Posts: 557
    I agree, and in effect, the Monastics have actually suffered from this. There are many things that feel very forced with it, to try and make it more Monastic. I wish they would ask the opinions of Monastic Communities with certain elements. I understand that a lot was done because of time constraints of clergy members so they could say the office and respect the hours but personally I have found speaking with clergy members that it has actually had the opposite effect---as in many do not even believe they have time for the current office. You can literally pray a major hour by yourself and with reverence in 5-7 minutes if you are not chanting.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • smcatharine
    Posts: 50
    In the body of the office it gives the alleluia option but in the ordinary part it says that if a priest or deacon is presiding he uses it. We never did.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • smcatharine
    Posts: 50
    The "problem" about the monastic issue probably is because the OSB's have their office so the "monastics" are seen to be taken care of. We poor OPs had our office slowly Romanized and the death knell was pretty much rung at the reforms of St. Pius X and now we do this dance of OP elements within the Roman office and there is the Liturgy Directory but still it is more of custom than anything. As time goes on and now almost NO ONE is alive that did the Dominican Office before 1969 it is harder to maintain a tradition. Some elements are clear but others aren't and what makes an element of the Office OP or not, no one is quite sure.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen monasteryliturgist
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