Obnoxious congregational singer
  • MitziCee
    Posts: 3
    Hello, all,

    At the parish where I'm directing music, there is a particular congregant who sings loudly, confidently, and poorly. She sits at the front, near the organ, and her voice is extremely distracting and confusing to me when I am cantoring Masses on my own (I sometimes struggle to hear my own voice). She sings in tune, can get through incredibly long phrases, and has a remarkable ability to quickly pick up new melodies; however, her tone is harsh and abrasive, she dominates the whole church, and her diphthongs send chills of horror down my spine.

    So, my question is this: is there any possible way to put an end to this? I've considered approaching her to ask her to joining the choir, my theory being that if I can get her in the practice room under my control, I may be able to a decent sound out of her. Of course, it could backfire if she does join, or if she doesn't, my invitation may simply serve to flatter her and double her confidence.

    Anyone with experience in a similar situation: thoughts?
  • Jani
    Posts: 442
    This can’t possibly end well. I’m sorry!
    Thanked by 1Chant_Supremacist
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,227
    is there any possible way to put an end to this?

    No.

    You actually have a congregant who sings? Must be a convert who didn't get the memo in RCIA. "She sings in tune, can get through incredibly long phrases, and has a remarkable ability to quickly pick up new melodies." If that's "singing poorly", I'd like to know how she learned to do it. But she sounds like ----? There could be physical damage to the voice. Or maybe she was a Sacred Harp alto and carried chest up way too high (though that would probably mess up pitch). That would also explain the "heavy diphthong action."

    If you invite her into the choir, "you bought it". She will be very difficult to get rid of if you can't fix the problem. If you can, you have a real asset. And you're also a more competent and confident vocal pedagogue than I. If you deal with her as a congregant, I can't think of a single thing you can do that isn't going to backfire on you massively, especially under the FCAP paradigm.

    As Our Lord said, some demons can only be driven out through prayer and fasting. Does she or her husband work for a firm that could offer an out-of-town promotion?
    Thanked by 1Chant_Supremacist
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,518
    On the remote chance she ever chatted you up and inquired about joining the music ministry, you could comment that her robust singing might well do the greatest acoustical good to support the singing of other congregants if it were in the rear half of the church.
    Thanked by 5Abbysmum Jeffrey Quick irishtenor Chant_Supremacist wspinnen
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,416
    the FCAP paradigm


    I'm gonna take the bait here and ask what the FCAP paradigm is!!
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,518
    Full, Conscious, and Active Participation
    Thanked by 3irishtenor LauraKaz searchfgold6789
  • Chant_Supremacist
    Posts: 272
    Encouraging others to sing louder (or just sing) is the best thing you could do here (iow it's hopeless).
  • contemporaryworship92
    Posts: 308
    Can you and your choir play/sing louder, and at least somewhat drown her out?

    There are multiple theories of how loud a choir should be. I'm not saying I agree with this but according to some the choir should be loud enough that everyone in the congregation can sing badly without having to worry about other people noticing them.
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 642

    Could you possibly block off that area by sprawling all your personal belongings across the pew(s)?
    Thanked by 2Chant_Supremacist searchfgold6789
  • Benton
    Posts: 22
    If she dominates the whole church, then maybe the organist needs to be louder.
    Thanked by 2Abbysmum mikecharliebravo
  • monasteryliturgistmonasteryliturgist
    Posts: 522
    We had this problem in our Monastery. We had one woman who was always one beat ahead of us. We solved this by making our microphones more and louder.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CHGiffen
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 657
    I agree with Benton. People are more inclined to sing when there’s a lot of sound and they can join in, rather than stand out. Even the shyest people will sing along lustily at sporting events and rock/pop concerts, when the music is all around them.

    Unless you’re in a very live acoustic, or standing in the middle of a choir (or an exceptionally-zealous top-0.5% congregation), it’s difficult for human voices to provide that enveloping, natural support. A loud cantor is something different – it’s loud, but it’s still one voice.

    However, the organ can do the job. The 8’ foundations form a “choir” when played together, filling the church with lots of sound at the same pitch as the voices. A bit of 4’ on top for clarity and you’re in business, without seeming “loud” in the same way as if you played with one 8, a 4, a 2, and mixtures. Reeds and upperwork should only come on after the foundations as needed.

    In the case of the loud congregant, this ought not to be a problem; the organ should be playing with enough fortitude to equal and slightly surpass the volume of all voices. It’s beyond our control who shows up on Sunday, and how they sing, but the organ can stay in the lead and ensure that there’s enough “cushion” and a clear pitch center for everyone (including you) to sing, no matter who muddies the waters.
    Thanked by 6DavidOLGC CHGiffen Abbysmum CharlesW monasteryliturgist Roborgelmeister
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 642
    We had this problem in our Monastery. We had one woman who was always one beat ahead of us. We solved this by making our microphones more and louder.

    Maybe the tempo was just too slow.
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 785
    Regardless, it's not really the job of the congregation to set the tempo.
    Thanked by 3Abbysmum CHGiffen Chant_Supremacist
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,307
    Normally yes but if the director wants to insist on a tempo that isn’t respected…
    Thanked by 1SponsaChristi
  • AbbysmumAbbysmum
    Posts: 145
    Regardless, it's not really the job of the congregation to set the tempo.


    While true, they do have a tendency to drag tempo down.
  • RomanticStringsRomanticStrings
    Posts: 349
    I've seen similar situations where a singer needs specific improvements, but there isn't a clear way to remedy the situation. Surely there must be a way to approach the person directly, stating the positive qualities and identifying the aspects that need work. But, even for someone you know well, it's hard to work out how to do so, let alone for someone you've never spoken to.
  • Heath
    Posts: 990
    I think this is a "catch more flies with honey" situation...

    I'd approach the eager congregant and state the following:

    -how much you appreciate their willingness to sing

    -they have such a "powerful" voice that it's a challenge for the cantor to hear themselves

    -you wonder if they'd be willing to sing a bit softer and/or relocate so the cantor can fulfill their ministry more effectively

    -...and end with something positive: "this is a good problem to have! I appreciate your desire to sing so much, it's such a great addition to the congregational sound."

    I suspect the person will be flattered and thus more willing to acquiesce.

    If not, ask a large family to come ten minutes earlier each week and take that pew before she gets there. ;)
    Thanked by 5Abbysmum CHGiffen probe Roborgelmeister MitziCee
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 642
    how much you appreciate their willingness to sing

    -they have such a "powerful" voice that it's a challenge for the cantor to hear themselves

    -you wonder if they'd be willing to sing a bit softer and/or relocate so the cantor can fulfill their ministry more effectively

    -...and end with something positive: "this is a good problem to have! I appreciate your desire to sing so much, it's such a great addition to the congregational sound."

    This sounds extremely patronizing. Furthermore, according to Sing to the Lord:
    38. As a leader of congregational song, the cantor should take part in singing with the entire gathered assembly. In order to promote the singing of the liturgical assembly, the cantor’s voice should not be heard above the congregation. As a transitional practice, the voice of the cantor might need to be amplified to stimulate and lead congregational singing when this is still weak.

    Maybe investing in a small monitor you can keep on the organ in front of you so you can hear yourself. I was just singing in a huge professional chorus and orchestra along with a large pipe organ this past weekend. During our dress rehearsal, rather if orchestra members were having issues hearing, the sound guys just brought them out their own monitors.

    Obviously that’s not the most practical in parishes, but if you want the congregation to sing, but can’t handle one robust singer, you’re going to have to invest in technology. Telling people to be quiet or trying to get rid of them isn’t a viable solution and will only cause more harm than good.

    I suspect the person will be flattered and thus more willing to acquiesce.

    Personally, I would tell you to stop patronizing me and find the SATB versions of the hymns and sing my voice part.
  • Benton
    Posts: 22
    I think that cantors using microphones is probably a worse problem than anyone in the congregation singing loudly.
    Thanked by 9tomjaw a_f_hawkins CHGiffen Gamba LauraKaz francis AnimaVocis searchfgold6789 MitziCee
  • RoborgelmeisterRoborgelmeister
    Posts: 337
    However, the organ can do the job. The 8’ foundations form a “choir” when played together, filling the church with lots of sound at the same pitch as the voices. A bit of 4’ on top for clarity and you’re in business, without seeming “loud” in the same way as if you played with one 8, a 4, a 2, and mixtures. Reeds and upperwork should only come on after the foundations as needed.

    This is so different from what we were doing 50+ years ago. When a colleague of mine reported hearing this approach at an AGO convention, I was sceptical. But now it seems right.
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 642
    I think that cantors using microphones is probably a worse problem than anyone in the congregation singing loudly.

    I don’t think microphones at Mass are inherently evil, but rather the improper use of them and using the wrong type of microphones.
    Thanked by 2monasteryliturgist MitziCee
  • francis
    Posts: 11,232
    Microphones are not inherently evil. But a church that NEEDS them was constructed with a flawed understanding of the nature of sacred music and the desired acoustic for a church. The organ, choir, Schola and cantor(s) do not need microphones in a properly constructed church with a complimentary acoustic to sacred music.

    Of course, sacred music is defined using these medium alone:

    Gregorian Chant (Schola)
    Polyphony
    Organ
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  • Chant_Supremacist
    Posts: 272
    We have a good quality system that I set to very low, nearly indiscernible amplification. The church, while fairly traditional and built in 1906, has a carpeted nave installed in the 80s or thereabouts. It's on the docket for removal, but we're stuck with it for a couple more years.

    Francis I mostly agree, but I think even with good acoustics some amateur choirs just have quiet/shy singers. With mine for instance (volume and projection are a work in progress), if were to turn the dial up to 11, I could sing over all 15 members. I mean if they were to do the same, I couldn't, but their dials just seem to end at about 6, which the system can turn into a 7.

    And then I have sung in modern churches with bad acoustics where people further away have some trouble hearing me, so of course I've experienced those dead modern acoustics.

    When the speaker system was installed about 1.5 years ago, I was skeptical and told the priest the church had no insuperable acoustic issues and that I would prefer to work on developing the singers rather than creating a possible dependency. I've come around to it somewhat (partly because in 2 years of directing I've only had one singer who noticeably improved her volume, and then she moved away, so it's just not a quick fix ime), with the very low setting, though when the carpeting is removed I'd like to get away from it.
  • searchfgold6789
    Posts: 29
    However, the organ can do the job. The 8’ foundations form a “choir” when played together, filling the church with lots of sound at the same pitch as the voices. A bit of 4’ on top for clarity and you’re in business, without seeming “loud” in the same way as if you played with one 8, a 4, a 2, and mixtures...


    Yep, the foundations cancel out the fundamental frequencies of singers (not a bad/good thing), providing that "cushion" and increasing confidence to sing with imperfect intonation in unison. It used to be that organists often used too much fundamental tone (T. Tertius Noble notes), then the pendulum of organbuilding and pipe voicing swung in the other direction and removed ANY cushion. All this helped to kill congregational singing; mics were the nails in the coffin. I guess Novus Ordo coffins don't use nails. I hope mine has ugly, rusted, cast iron traddy nails. Anyway.

    I wonder if OP's congregation just isn't singing together with each other and the organ properly yet, otherwise our self-appointed soloist would have much less of a raison d'etre. And in this respect, it's an uphill battle. Has OP gotten rid of the mics yet? Do they regularly blast the congregation when on the bench? Seems like the diva might be from another type of congregation, wanting to show us how it's done.

    The idea of induction into the choir would work depending on the age of the singer. It is much more difficult to undo bad habits with age, but not impossible. It depends on the person.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 12,052
    Sometimes you just have to learn to live with problems. I was in a church many years ago with a man whose voice was both loud and capable of cutting glass at a distance. He was a multi-millionaire business owner who loved to sing and who underwrote a large chunk of the church budget. No one ever complained to him. You can't always fix everything.
    Thanked by 1SponsaChristi
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