English Polyphonic Mass
  • davido
    Posts: 1,150
    Has anyone written a Renaissance style polyphonic mass ordinary setting in English?

    Or have you adapted a Latin setting to the current English translation?
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,404
    Chris Mueller's Missa Pro Editione Tertia is certainly not Renaissance polyphony, but it is a lovely choral English setting of the Mass ordinary.
    https://www.benesonarium.com/roman-missal/
  • Xopheros
    Posts: 71
    Related but slightly off-topic: Which translation is preferred for new settings of the mass ordinary in English?

    It seems to me that the translations published by the English Language Liturgical Commission are a decent choice, because it is in modern English and has a permissive license.
  • This little Missa Brevis from the old Church of England rites could rather easily be adapted for the new Roman Missal English texts.
    https://archive.org/details/burgess-missa-angelica/page/n7/mode/2up
    The same could be said for this, although the Gloria might be a bit more challenging.
    https://archive.org/details/missa-seraphica/page/IV/mode/2up?view=theater
  • Heath
    Posts: 988
    David, I've done a lot of Latin-to-English adapting over at my site (www.englishmotets.com), but never for the Ordinary. I've always figured that if someone was going to do a polyphonic Ordinary, they probably had the "infrastructure" to do it in Latin. :)

    What do you have in mind?
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,193
    More Anglican-style than Renaissance style. perhaps, but if you want a choral Ordinary to the current Missal translation, you might want to look at my Mass in Honor of St. Maximilian Kolbe.
    Score: https://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Mass_in_honor_of_St._Maximilian_Kolbe_(Jeffrey_Quick)
    A recording can be found at https://jeffreyquick.com (tabbed Catalog of Works, "Chorus and liturgical", scroll down to 2010).
  • GerardH
    Posts: 620
    +1 for @CGM's Missa pro editione tertia

    @Xopheros, the only English translation which may be used in the Roman liturgy is the one by ICEL. The (Catholic) Ordinariates have their own official translation based on Anglican sources.
  • davido
    Posts: 1,150
    Jeffrey, that is beautiful music.

    Heath, nothing too complicated. My choir sings the Kyrie from Viadana’s Missa l’Hora Passa regularly. We’ve sung Sicut cervus and some of the Holy Week motets from the St Gregory Hymnal. I think I could do an Kyrie/Agnus Dei regularly, but the congregation would appreciate it more in English. You’re motet adaptions are great!
    The Renaissance polyphony is such a Catholic, sacred sound. And I think in English the music has more of an impact on my congregation. Even though they know the Latin from singing thr simple mass parts.
    I could do some adapting of Latin Mass polyphony, but it’s always better if the music is written specifically for the words.
    Thanked by 2Heath Jeffrey Quick
  • vansensei
    Posts: 223
    Here is what I would recommend: try writing your own Mass setting. Post it here and we will help as much as possible
  • francis
    Posts: 11,175
    What voicing do you require?
  • Chaswjd
    Posts: 297
    If such a composition is tried, I would urge that it be done in an alternatim style. The interspersing of chant would allow for congregational participation which would, in turn, allow for the most wide spread use of the setting. There are plenty of historical antecedents with Palestrina, Ludford, Sheppard, and Issac having composed alternatim masses.
  • I don't think this is what you are looking for, but this is my Missal Chants Mass Setting.

    https://youtu.be/yZ_dCvRahSw?si=Kzhmgt83SktpUL08
    ICEL Mass - Carbonell - Kyrie sample copy.pdf
    168K
    Thanked by 1lmassery
  • Xopheros
    Posts: 71
    @Francisco_Carbonell It seems to me that this can be considered "vernacular" only in Greece. Or did you make an English text underlay, too?
  • CGM
    Posts: 781
    The Batten Short Communion Service has been excerpted/contrafacted in a couple different versions here — with a few judicious text alterations it could be fitted for the Mass:
    https://cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Short_Communion_Service_(Adrian_Batten)
  • francis
    Posts: 11,175
    I always thought polyphonic means independent melodies in each part (not aligned in rhythm or in text). Palestrina is an obvious example. Are you specifically requesting that formula or is SATB homophonic acceptable (also desirable) ?
  • davido
    Posts: 1,150
    I am thinking of classic renaissance polyphony inspired by the Roman school: Palestrina, Victoria, Aniero, Igegneri. Or even later stuff by the pre-Baroque composers, Hassler, Viadana, Aichinger.
  • stulte
    Posts: 358
    davido, this is what you're looking for:
    Missa Episcopi Joannis
    Thanked by 3davido GerardH Abbysmum
  • davido
    Posts: 1,150
    Yep. That’s exactly what I am looking for.
  • GerardH
    Posts: 620
    @stulte What a great find! But how does one acquire the score?
    Thanked by 1davido
  • stulte
    Posts: 358
    What a great find! But how does one acquire the score?

    Thanks! The score isn't available anywhere to purchase and I don't believe the composer is very interested in promoting this particular work.
  • davido
    Posts: 1,150
    That’s a real shame. I would like to use the work
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,404
    Bummer -- the video isn't even available on YouTube anymore. "Private" now.
  • Xopheros
    Posts: 71
    @GerardH "the only English translation which may be used in the Roman liturgy is the one by ICEL"

    Apart from the problem of a restrictive (non-)permission to set it to music discussed in other threads, I have had a look at the ICEL Gloria and noticed that it is at odds with all other vernacular versions I know:

    English (ICEL): "and on earth peace to people of good will"

    English (ICET/ELLC): "and peace to His/God's people on earth"

    German: "und Friede den Menschen seiner Gnade"

    French: "et paix sur la terre aux hommes qu’il aime"

    Spanish: "y en la tierra paz a los hombres que ama el Señor"

    Interestingly, the German catholic radio station "Domradio" answered to a listener's question that the formulation "seiner Gande" is based on the original Greek text of the Gloria and not on the Latin translation (Comment: It seems to me that the Latin is ambiguous, because, due to the possibly almost arbittrary word order in Latin sentences, it is unclear to which substantive the genitive in "bonae voluntatis" refers, to "Deo" or to "hominibus").

    Is this ICEL version simply a "Chinese whispers" effect (Greek -> Latin -> English) as Domradio suggests, or is there some deeper reason for this unusual (WRT to all other catholic translations) choice?

    Unfortunately, this makes a musical setting based on the ICEL translation problematic for use outside the US, I think.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • GerardH
    Posts: 620
    @Xopheros That other thread is relevant only to the lectionary used in the USA, not to the 2010 translation of the Roman Missal produced by ICEL and mandated for use in all English-speaking regions worldwide. For details of the publishing permission for ICEL texts, see ICEL's Publication Polices. TLDR: if you're offering them for free, you pay 2.25% of $0, which is $0 (as best I can tell, per p. 15)

    Your qualms with the ICEL translation do not negate that it is still the only permissible English text usable by Catholics anywhere in the world (and not just the USA). If you want to set a different text, so be it; perhaps some Protestants will find use for your music, but no Catholic can.
    Thanked by 1CGM
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,212
    Uh

    the French and Italian translations are bad. Period. The Latin is to be translated, not the Greek. The Greek is not the text in front of us.

    What Francis allowed to sneak through was a relaxation of Liturgiam authenticam. The Italian is especially goofy, because it’s not even a translation of the Greek; ditto for any other translation that is equivalent to the Italian but not the Latin or English.

    The problem is that even after Veritatis splendor, people don’t believe in natural law and people of good will.

    The ICEL setting is worldwide for Anglophones; unfortunately so is the AELF translation for French, and that missal is just goofy. Benedict’s resignation had another cascading effect.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,627
    We (English and Germans alike) have been told to use the Nova Vulgate for liturgical purposes, rather than the Clementine Vulgate, I am not sure what difference that would make.
    NOV Lk2:14 “ Gloria in altissimis Deo, et super terram pax in hominibus bonae voluntatis ”.
    VUL Lk2:14 Gloria in altissimis Deo, et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis.
    Appealing to the Greek text does not help, despite what the bishop says in that Domradio interview, since some of the Greek texts say εὐδοκία and others say εὐδοκίας in the genetive. See note 1 in the Wikipedia entry here.
    Perhaps St Jerome deliberately left the Latin ambiguous.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,212
    Not that it actually matters, but the liturgical text is not either Vulgate: it’s the missal.

    The Greek text doesn’t help since as Gregory DiPippo loves to point out, and does in the comments, that the Greek doesn’t mean what it is alleged to mean in these bowdlerized modern-language translations of the Gloria.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,404
    Agreeing with MatthewRoth -- neither of those are the correct text for liturgical use
  • CGM
    Posts: 781
    I was looking for something to do today, and so I adapted the whole Viadana "Missa L'hora passa" to the current Roman Missal texts (except the Credo). Here's a PDF, without the Gloria (which I haven't yet engraved). It's a surprisingly time-consuming process, shoehorning in the text and deciding what subtle adaptations are required in the music.

    I hope to update this post at some point to include the Gloria (which is itself nearly as long as all the other movements taken together).

    UPDATE: @Gerard & @Jeffrey, the Sanctus has been fixed.
    UPDATE #2: Gloria has been added.
    UPDATE #3: Agnus Dei fixed.
  • montre_16montre_16
    Posts: 8
    Maybe this setting in honour of 'St. Mary MacKillop' by David Drury? Some organ accompaniment is necessary, but many sections are a'capella.

    Listen here (see my timestamps in the comments):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3mDPLJmtF0

    Order here:
    https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/en/product/mass-in-honour-of-st-mary-mackillop-20134671.html?srsltid=AfmBOooyFNLt92znu1411gDK7TQ2hU5_UP9EeogCMDG-XKKfykdLYg-S