Singing seasonal Marian Antiphons
  • Guidry
    Posts: 2
    My priest would like to sing the seasonal Marian Anthems. He'd like to do them year-round following the traditional alignment with the different liturgical seasons. Anyone care to share share at what point in the mass would we sing this? His idea, to begin, is to sing it as the recessional during Advent. He hopes that the assembly hearing this lovely chant (hearing = they will not likely sing) would help to change the old habit of the assembly bursting out into conversation at the end of mass. (I normally play an organ recessional, but he wants to follow the practice of having more reserved organ music during Advent, which I could still do but, hey, having a bit less to prepare weekly during Advent sounds good too!) Any thoughts on this? I'd like resume playing organ recessionals after Advent, so** at what other point during the liturgy would it be most effective to sing it?** Thank you!
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    For most of the year, only at recessional.
    Thanked by 2DavidOLGC francis
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,627
    We have a Lady chapel half way down the side of the church and on occasion have a pause during the recession to sing something marian outside it, such as the appropriate antiphon.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • GerardH
    Posts: 620
    If you're already in the habit of an organ recessional, why not do both? The Marian antiphons aren't usually long enough to cover a full procession, except for very small churches
    Thanked by 3Liam tomjaw LauraKaz
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,193
    I've only ever seen this done as part of the recessional, usually right before the recessional hymn. The antiphons aren't part of the Mass, so doing them outside of the Mass and after the Ite seems indicated. Otherwise, I think you'd have to do them as part of the offertory or communion music.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw DavidOLGC
  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 331
    Our custom is everyone sings the antiphon with the priest while he stands in the sanctuary, and then at the conclusion of the antiphon he processes out and the recessional is sung.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw rich_enough
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,404
    The way this is typically done, in my experience, is:
    --Blessing and Dismissal
    --Marian Antiphon while sacred ministers get themselves arranged for the recessional
    --Organ while they recess

    I think it would be very appropriate to make the organ recessional very subdued during Advent.

    In case you're not sure:
    --Alma Redemptoris Mater is sung from the first Sunday of Advent until the Feast of the Purification on February 2 (the original ending date of the Christmas season)
    --Ave Regina Caelorum is sung from after Purification/February 2/Candlemas until the Triduum (no Marian antiphons are sung during the Triduum)
    --Regina Caeli is sung from Easter Vigil through Pentecost Sunday
    --Salve Regina is sung from the day after Pentecost Sunday until the first Sunday of Advent, when you repeat the cycle, beginning with Alma Redemptoris Mater again
    Thanked by 3tomjaw LauraKaz DavidOLGC
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,110
    At my parish, I decided to introduce the seasonal Marian antiphons during the purification of vessels following Communion.

    In Advent, Christmas, Lent, and Easter, the proper antiphon is chanted every Sunday. In ordinary time we chant Salve Regina on the third Sunday of the month, and Ave Maria on the first Sunday. On other Sundays there is silence during the purification of vessels.

    I'm not thrilled with that approach because I don't think those antiphons actually belong at Mass, but my parish doesn't celebrate compline -- which parish does? -- so unless we sing the Marian antiphons at Mass hardly any Catholics will ever hear, learn, or sing them.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,908
    In England it is traditional to have the seasonal Marian Anthem after Mass, Vespers etc. It is done as at Compline, i.e. Priest intones, choir sing Anthem, V & R then Prayer.
    Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 772
    .
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    FWIW, the rite of Communion is very much not the place for them on an ongoing basis. (If you want something Marian for Communion: use the Magnificat.)
    Thanked by 2a_f_hawkins CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,211
    Our custom is everyone sings the antiphon with the priest while he stands in the sanctuary, and then at the conclusion of the antiphon he processes out and the recessional is sung.


    We do this with the versicle snd collect. I feel cheated when those are omitted. Our priest does not let us start early during the Last Gospel. He feels that it’s important to pray them. They are not appropriate for communion as Liam notes.

    We also do them when the priest is more or less in place. He lets one (or more) of the musicians intone however.

    Also, the other place for them is after Lauds or the last hour said in choir and after Compline. The 1960 rubrics leave only after Compline as an obligation. I include the antiphons in a booklet for Sunday Sext that I made and will continue to make to get us through the liturgical year.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Magdalene
    Posts: 29
    For the past three years we've been singing the Marian Antiphons during the purification of the vessels as well. I know it's not the best time so I do wait until the tabernacle has been closed. Maybe that doesn't make a difference, but it seems a little more fitting at least to wait until then. It's a bit of a rush to fit the Salve Regina in that time frame, but our priest enjoys singing the last portion with the choir, so he is supportive of it.
    Thanked by 2irishtenor CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,489
    You might find this booklet/leaflet with the seasonal Marian antiphons helpful.
    Thanked by 3Liam CHGiffen irishtenor
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,193
    the GIRM forbids solo organ music during Advent (as well as during Lent and at requiems).

    Arguments I've heard:
    "It''s after the Ite, so it's not at Mass"
    "They're going to jabber anyways, and at least the organ helps cover it up."

    I'm not evaluating these excuses. But GIRM-compliant Masses are fairly rare in any season.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 426
    the GIRM forbids solo organ music during Advent (as well as during Lent and at requiems).
    What it actually says:
    In Advent the organ and other musical instruments should be used with a moderation that is consistent with the season’s character and does not anticipate the full joy of the Nativity of the Lord.

    In Lent the playing of the organ and musical instruments is allowed only to support the singing. Exceptions are Laetare Sunday (Fourth Sunday of Lent), solemnities, and feasts. (313)
    Certainly, it's praiseworthy to observe the traditional practice of organ only to support singing, silent organa, cum silet cantus, even during Advent; cf. Musica Sacram:
    The playing of these same instruments as solos is not permitted in Advent, Lent, during the Sacred Triduum and in the Offices and Masses of the Dead. (66)
    Our custom here is to sing the antiphon during the Last Gospel followed by silence when organ solos are forbidden, otherwise an organ postlude. As a rule, we have a recessional hymn only when there's Benediction after Mass or for some extraordinary occasion when "Holy God, We Praise Thy Name" seems appropriate, such as Confirmation or the first Mass of a new priest.

    Your people need to be instructed not to carry on conversations in church, period. If they don't respect a recessional hymn as part of the worship enough to remain in place until it's finished, then better to dispense with it.

    EDIT: I think Liam and I were posting simultaneously.
    Thanked by 2trentonjconn tomjaw
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    Just to be clear, the GIRM does *not* forbid solo organ music during Advent - it calls for it to be used with moderation:

    GIRM 313, in relevant part:

    In Advent the use of the organ and other musical instruments should be marked by a moderation suited to the character of this time of year, without expressing in anticipation the full joy of the Nativity of the Lord.

    In Lent the playing of the organ and musical instruments is allowed only in order to support the singing. Exceptions, however, are Laetare Sunday (Fourth Sunday of Lent), Solemnities, and Feasts.
    Thanked by 2trentonjconn DavidOLGC
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 772
    I stand corrected, gents. For whatever reason I had it in my head that the Lenten rubric applied word for word to Advent as well which, as y'all point out, doesn't seem to be the case. Mea culpa.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,211
    I wish that we could abolish hymns and could get nice postludes.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Felicia
    Posts: 143
    This morning, the Holy Father celebrated Mass at the Cathedral of Albano. At the end, the choir sang "Ave regina caelorum." Is this permitted during Ordinary Time?

    It starts at about 1:31:30 on this recording:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUzvHPmJfcQ/

    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    I wouldn't imagine it being *forbidden*, esp after Mass.

    The Marian antiphons are proper to Divine Office, and even so in the NO, it's the Regina Caeli that's prescribed in that context for Eastertide, but technically the others may be used ad lib. during the rest of the year.

    General Instruction of the Liturgy of the Hours 92: "Finally, one of the antiphons in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary is said. In the Easter season this will be the Regina caeli. In addition to the antiphons given in the Liturgy of the Hours others may be approved by the conference of bishops."
    Thanked by 3WGS Felicia tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,211
    It’s bizarre though even if they aren’t seasonally assigned in the new office. The custom is that strong.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    I agree the custom is strong, and merits respect even without prescription. That said, if a pope were to encourage the singing of the Ave Regina Caelorum between 8/15 and 8/22, that's a tweak I could . . . digest. (I happen to love the ARC.)
    Thanked by 1Felicia
  • Felicia
    Posts: 143
    Thank you, Liam. That's good to know. I like ARC, too.
  • RoborgelmeisterRoborgelmeister
    Posts: 307
    I had one of those "newly prepared" Divine Office booklets from Ireland, pub. ca. 1980. For compline, it had a plethora of Marian Antiphons. I used these for private devotions for many years. Some were translations of Magnificat antiphons from various feasts and solemnities. I would think that singing any antiphon (or hymn) for Our Lady following mass would be good form.
    May I add, there is nothing quite so fine as the solemn tone for Salve Regina.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,211
    The solemn tones in general are really pleasing. I won’t go so far as some do and say that the simple tones only have a place where the solemn tones cannot ever be musically executed correctly and well, but I prefer to sing the solemn tones on feasts, even after the high Mass where the antiphon is custom and not required as it is after Compline (pre-1955 Vespers if neither Compline nor, in parish churches, other devotions or a sermon follow, and Lauds or the last office in choir otherwise). Yes, that means the people might be occasionally excluded, but they should hear these melodies! They shouldn’t be locked away.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,913
    In some past thread I shared some mediaeval cursi of Marian antiphons that rotated through the weekdays: you'll find them in New Grove. So far we sing Regina Caeli post Communion through Eastertide and Ave Regina after Stations of the Cross. We'll also be singing Dufay's troping of the later Aug. 5 for the composer's birthday, so stay tuned for details!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • TLMlover
    Posts: 75
    Several people mention that the Marian antiphons are inappropriate at communion. What is the general consensus about singing them post-communion?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,211
    It’s not really a chant conducive to doing things so I think that the priest, deacon, and servers should be able to participate even if by only listening more fully (some still have their hands full at the end of Mass for example).

    I think that doing them before the retiring procession is the way to go.
  • monasteryliturgistmonasteryliturgist
    Posts: 508
    In our congregation we have a tradition of renewing our total consecration to Jesus through Mary by a Marian Antiphon once the priest has finished purifying the vessels and we have had a few minutes of private prayer. That might not be possible in every parish setting depending on time constraints but it works well for us.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • RoborgelmeisterRoborgelmeister
    Posts: 307
    And sometimes, the simple chant Ave Maria is all that is needed.
    For those who might find useful, "Englished," with organ.
    Attached to correct a bad link.
    Ave Maria mode 1 chant.pdf
    28K
    Ave Maria mode 1 chant.pdf
    28K
    Thanked by 1Richard Mix
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,480
    Always at the end of Communion, during purification.
    Thanked by 1monasteryliturgist
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