Any OF Latin Masses that sing All the Chant Propers?
  • veromaryveromary
    Posts: 144
    Hi, I'm working on a video to show how Chant's natural habitat is the Old Mass and how it is not practical in the New Mass.

    Basic idea is that the New Mass (1970) does everything one at a time, so that singing the Introit, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, makes the Mass take longer, whereas these things would overlap with the choir singing over the priest's parts.

    Am I on the right track here? or have I missed a way in which the Introit, Gradual, Alleluia, Offertory and Communion may be sung?

    And I don't think I've ever heard the Credo sung at a Novus Ordo Mass - I'm assuming it's possible, just a bit long?

    Maybe too many questions, but I'm a bit anxious.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 853
    Given that the five parts of the Proper are Scriptural readings in and of themselves, I think it's entirely appropriate—and preferable, in my eyes—that they don't overlap. The only one that could actually hold up the Mass is the Introit and that only adds about two minutes at most (if psalm verses are dispensed with)

    Credo not being sung is for a variety of "pastoral reasons" which don't really include making the Mass longer. At a reasonable, brisk speech-like tempo, it's really not that much longer than speaking it.

    None of your points are explicit to chant and could just as easily apply to non-Gregorian settings of those texts; I would suggest they argue more for the said Mass being normative in the NO, if anything, rather than for chant not being normative.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,145
    @veromary
    I agree that the Chant as found in say the Gradual Romanum 1924 is not suited to the New Mass. The TLM has developed organically with the music, the Ritual has grown to suit the music, and the music has grown to fit the Ritual. The creates a bigger picture that makes the TLM a Liturgy, that can be recognised as such by those that attend other ancient forms of Liturgy. Our Coptic priest has noticed that the TLM is Liturgy and is similar in form and intent to his native Coptic Rite, while the N.O. does not appear to be Liturgy, and lacks the form and intent.

    Comparing the TLM with the N.O. is a bit unfair, the Normative form of the TLM is the Solemn High Mass, so the Music and Ritual naturally fit together seamlessly. The N.O. was not designed that way the Ritual was designed, with little thought to the music, the question remains how was "Gregorian Chant should take pride of place" ever more than an optional extra in the N.O. as produced?

    While we have been told that music would be produced for the new Ritual, this has still not been done officially...

    The problem with the Credo also appears in the TLM, there is some claim that we must recite the Creed. So polyphonic Credo, are not sung and Credo III is sung to allow a lower kind of active participation. We work on the principal that we will also sing the polyphonic Credo, but we only sing polyphonic ordinaries around one Sunday a month.
    back many years ago when I sang in a choir that sang at a Latin N.O. Mass, I am sure we would sing a chant Creed. So it can be done at the N.O., but many priests claim it MUST be recited by the assembly in a language that the priest may not fully understand and a congregation that has no clue to what they are saying.

    Those on here that are programming music for the N.O. have done the following,
    Entrance Hymn followed by Introit...

    The Gradual and the Alleluia can be sung instead of the R.P. (the Gregorian Missal has the arrangements) but this is very rarely done, as many people think the Lectionary texts MUST be used rather than there being a choice (So Gregorian Chant can take pride of place).

    The Offertory is a more difficult piece of music, and many people will have difficulty replacing the usual Song / Hymn, that must be sung, even if it has nothing to do with the Ritual text it replaces and only has a loose association with the Faith of our Fathers.

    The Communion is easy to add, because the congregation can't sing while lining up for cafeteria serviceHoly Communion.
    Thanked by 1veromary
  • Geez, guys, just watch a video of the Cantius guys doing a Sunday NO mass in either English or Latin. It all works just fine, and it’s all chant, all the time.
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 208
    I agree, our abbey uses the Graduale Romanum for the OF and it works just fine and is very beautiful. A Sunday Mass takes about 1:10, a regular weekday Mass about 35 min. A bit longer on feasts and solemnities.

  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 845
    Of course, the time it takes to celebrate Mass cannot be the criterium to determine whether chant is suited to the OF. I have been at many OF Masses entirely sung in Latin with gregorian chant – the creed included – and they have been the most beautiful Masses I attended. Ritual and music fit perfectly together, as if they naturally belong to each other. Gregorian chant is the musical language of the Roman Rite, and that's true for the OF as much as for the EF.

    "The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services." (SC 116)

    It's true that the OF has less "parallel" liturgy than the EF, but also in the OF the Introit, Alleluia, Offertory, Agnus Dei and Communio are accompanying liturgical acts (entrance procession, procession with the Book of Gospels, preparation of the offerings, breaking of the bread and distribution of communion, respectively). So, these are "parallel" parts in the OF as well.

    The Kyrie, Gloria, Creed and Sanctus are parts sung by the entire congregation, the priest included. The Gradual is an actual reading of Holy Scripture and deserves due attention. I have never understood the complaining about the "long" creed. Here in the Netherlands, if the ordinary is sung in Latin, the creed is almost always sung as well, usually by heart and with gusto (Credo I or III are most common).
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 508
    It maybe that in sung masses such as Mass in Honor of St. Joseph by Flor Peeters, or the Christmas Carol Mass by James Korman and many other sung Masses, the Credo was considered to long to sing and reciting the Profession of Faith allowed for more participation by the congregation. When I sang in St. Mary's Choir in Akron, Ohio we celebrated the Novus Ordo with Latin and used sung masses exampled above and we never sang the Credo.
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 192
    We sing an English setting of Credo III every Sunday and solemnity, and have been doing so for a few years!
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Jehan_Boutte
    Posts: 173
    Every Sunday, the Choeur grégorien de Paris sings a Missa cantata in the Ordinary form (or Roman rite, per Traditionis custodes' terminology), all in Latin, with full propers and ordinary.
    Thanked by 2OraLabora tomjaw
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,159
    Our parish has been singing an English Credo I for a good while now, which I think is the reason they've refused to use any other Credo at our TLM for over 5 years.
    Our pastor has been trying really hard to make sure that people from the NO who come to the TLM don't feel at all put off, but basically feel like it's the same, but more.

    I don't always agree with this approach, but I can understand its basis.
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 340
    In a previous job I directed a schola in a small town of 27k. Every solemnity and on First Saturdays (when the BVM) they sang the Gregorian Introit, Gradual, Offertory, and Communion as printed in the Graduale/Gregorian Missal. The people sang Mass VIII or IX, Credo III, and the Marian antiphon at the end. Celebrant sang all the dialogues and prayers. Depending on attendance we were in and out in 50-55 minutes, including a 4-minute homily and additional hymns at the beginning before the introit and after Communion. Typically there were around 100 there; those who wanted to be in and out quick for the holy day’s obligation came in the morning or afternoon.

    I think that if one is singing the chant at a reasonable pace, and the celebrant is not skimping on the ceremonial (i.e. incense at all the right times), and there is not extra music added where it is not needed (hymn at the procession in a small church) everything lines up perfectly in the new Mass.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 804
    Our Latin Mass priest had to be out of town one Sunday, so he had another priest sub in. The sub knew Latin and chant, but hadn't trained on the 1962 rubrics, so we did a sung Latin OF. We sang all the Propers and Ordinary in Latin (Gradual and Alleluia instead of the RP), including Credo III. The readings were proclaimed in Latin. The priest and altar boy also made their private prayers before Mass at the altar as opposed to the sacristy, and those prayers started with "Introibo"...

    The only part that was very obvious to the untrained eye and ear was the chanting of the Mysterium Fidei and the common singing of the Pater Noster. The chant did make the Mass longer than a typical Novus Ordo, but IIRC we finished up at the typical High Mass mark of an hour and fifteen.

    I would not recommend subbing OF for EF in general - it's usually better to bring in a green priest with a seasoned MC. Although now, with TC in effect, priests will need licenses...
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 630
    I know I've sung in the schola for an OF-with-propers at least twice, for feasts of Our Lady at a confraternity chapel (ie not at a parish). Usually the Gradual is not included so that the Responsorial Psalm in the vernacular can be read by a lay person instead, or, in some cases, sung by a cantor. I think we always managed the rest of the propers, though. The Ordinary and Creed are chanted, but a handout is given to the congregation showing the chants with their notation and Latin, and a vernacular translation, so they can follow along. This being not-a-parish, timing was not a problem - the priest there can set his schedule as he pleases, and for a major annual feast of Our Lady, patron of that chapel, the people are delighted to come early, stay late, and buy sweets from the kiosks outside afterwards. The confraternity and people who assist there choose to go there because of their particular devotion and/or because of the more 'solemn' liturgy so 'hurry up' is not part of the norm there.
  • I think the OP's premise is off. Yes you add the chant, but you normally would take something away. If I do the Introit, I don't do an opening hymn. A chanted Gloria (not polyphonic) would take about the same amount of time as a popular vernacular one such as Heritage Mass. At communion, you normally need two songs anyways, so do the antiphon and a hymn instead of two hymns. The Gregorian alleluia would probably take longer than the lectionary one, but the psalm would be about the same. And the alleluia wouldn't be that much longer. Adding a sung Credo might add a minute or two, but nothing dramatic.

    Overall, you might add a little bit of time, but it would be negligible to the total length of the mass. And is it worth it to have a mass that takes 4 minutes longer, but is immensely more beautiful? I think so.
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 928
    We use vernacular and Latin chant in our NO masses regularly. There is no problem except will-power. We haven’t had an offertory hymn in a long time; we’ve been singing vernacular offertory chants. We’ve had communion antiphons for 3 years now. Depending on the level of solemnity and occasion, we either have an entrance hymn, EH + introït, or just introït. I’ve also sung graduals rather than responsorial psalms.

    We should also remember that the missal of Paul VI recommends chant first, before the more common (unfortunately) alternatives.
  • sdtalley3sdtalley3
    Posts: 212
    @Serviam
    Why not just buckle down and do the Offertories? Usually it takes a Schola member 1-2 years to get a handle on all the propers if done continuously, regardless of the language. Such was my case when I was a teenager.
    Thanked by 2CatherineS tomjaw
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 192
    To address this more fully than in my earlier post, we always sing the propers at Mass. Our setting of the ordinaries varies by season, but that setting is always chant (English during OT, various Latin settings the rest of the year). Sung English Creed always. The propers are normally vernacular chant, but are never omitted (and usually followed by a hymn). Full Gregorian propers including gradual are used on high feasts (with the exception of the typical simplified N.O. Alleluia). Simple Latin propers during Lent and Advent. Usually, the biggest thing that determines whether we're there for an hour or an hour and fifteen is the length of the homily. Singing the Creed at the proper pace adds maybe a minute maximum to Mass overall. I suppose sometimes the introit adds time to Mass because it comes after the hymn and we have a rather small church and short aisle. However, again, this is no more than perhaps 30 seconds.

    I will say though that I don't believe time constraints ought to be the primary concern. However, in case your're trying to defend using such things, the difference in time is negligible.
  • Basic idea is that the New Mass (1970) does everything one at a time, so that singing the Introit, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, makes the Mass take longer, whereas these things would overlap with the choir singing over the priest's parts.

    Am I on the right track here? or have I missed a way in which the Introit, Gradual, Alleluia, Offertory and Communion may be sung?

    At the Novus Ordo where I am the following are observed:

    Introit*: Gregorian, antiphon-only (rare), antiphon-verse-antiphon (typically), or antiphon-verse-Gloria Patri-antiphon (if the antiphon is short)
    Gradual: from Chants Abreges (almost exclusively)
    Alleluia*: Gregorian Alleluia w/psalm-tone verse (typically)
    Offertory*: psalm-toned before a motet (usually), Gregorian (if standalone)
    Communion: antiphon and verses from Communio, plus one to three motets

    *Incense is used almost all of the time.

    And I don't think I've ever heard the Credo sung at a Novus Ordo Mass - I'm assuming it's possible, just a bit long?

    ICEL adaption of Credo III has been used for over two years without fail, and sung at a brisk pace.

    Maybe too many questions, but I'm a bit anxious.

    "Let not your heart be troubled"
    —Someone
    Thanked by 2veromary tomjaw
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,356
    At St Paul's Harvard Square in the years of hymnals created by Theodore Marier, in addition to Credo III, there were two English-language creeds sung - one vernacular chant and the other a recto tono (on G) with choral/organ chordal harmonic accompaniment (in the second edition of Hymns Psalms and Spiritual Canticles, the congregational "part" is #12, the organ/choral "parts" are at the end at #598 / pp 989-996), which worked far better than one might assume. We've had a number of discussions in the more distant past on recto tono settings of the longer parts of the congregational parts of the Ordinary of the Mass.

    From Mr Chonak in 2015:

    https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/comment/153920#Comment_153920
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,698
    Am I on the right track here? or have I missed a way in which the Introit, Gradual, Alleluia, Offertory and Communion may be sung?
    veromary - you are right in some parts but quite wrong in others. All these five chants are used in slightly different ways, but at a solemn celebration the three processional chants - IN OF & CO fit better in the OF than the EF. GIRM explains the way in which they cover the whole action. The Introit runs from sacristy to altar, incensing etc until the celebrant reaches the chair. The Offertory from preparation of the altar at least until the gifts have been placed on the altar, but may be continued until the thurifer has finished incensing the people. The Communion the whole from the priest receiving until all the faithful have received. Only if it is expected that the chant, with all the optional verses, runs out before the action is finished should an additional hymn or motet be considered.
    The Gradual and Alleluia are a different matter. Altough they consist of the same types of text, the Responsorial Psalm is designed as a coherent reading from the Book of Psalms, and the Gospel Acclamation is, as the name suggests, not a meditative chant.
    The fundamental importance of traditional chant to the OF is underlined by the provision of the Graduale Sinplex, so that even in circumstances where resources do not allow Graduale Romanum chant to be provided there is an official provision of chant drawn from the treasury.
    There are several reasons why this is not evident in the common practice of parishes. One is the haste and piecemeal scramble with which the whole liturgy was revised left the adaptation of the chant to the new calendar to the end of the process. Another is the widespread opposition to Latin. To this toxic combination we add the greed of publishers, and the allure of having a whole congregation as audience for your singing/picking/strumming/drumming.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,356
    "The Communion the whole from the priest receiving until all the faithful have received."

    A reminder that the common practice of waiting for the general distribution is non-rubrical, shall we say. Start right as the celebrant communes.
    Thanked by 1veromary
  • veromaryveromary
    Posts: 144
    Thanks everyone! I'm glad I asked. I think I'm still confused, but I have more to think about.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 656
    It is a mistake to think that every well-done Novus Ordo will resemble a Tridentine High Mass.

    Some will resemble a beautiful Low Mass with hymns and a sung Ordinary. Maybe like a German Singmesse. There was room for the Low Mass with music before, and this remains, with expanded possibilities.
  • Veromary,

    I would address the question of ethos: Gregorian chant is sung prayer, and conducive to prayer, even among those singing it. As such, it is also theocentric.

    While the Ordo of Paul VI can be conducive to prayer if other details are addressed, it is fundamentally anthropocentric, and thus chant fits in awkwardly. Additionally, microphones are normal in the new ordo, and present exactly the opposite attitude to chanted Latin propers and Ordinaries.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw a_f_hawkins
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,698
    CGZ I do not agree that the NO is fundamentally anthropocentric. Only the liturgy of the Word can be characterised like that. The common performance is a distortion to make it much more people oriented, but it is a distortion.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • GerardH
    Posts: 217
    Hi, I'm working on a video to show how Chant's natural habitat is the Old Mass and how it is not practical in the New Mass.

    This reminds me a lot of the difference between exegesis and eisegesis. The first is "critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially of scripture", while the second is "the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases".

    You make it sound like the conclusion is foregone.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,145
    You make it sound like the conclusion is foregone.

    Well we know for a fact that the Graduale Romanum and Missale Romanum grew up together more as twins than siblings. We also know that the Novus Ordo was written with little thought as to the music, contrary to Vat II; "that chant should take pride of place".

    Of course what we do have above is a difference of opinion and practice,
    We have those that have not seen the Chant Propers sung at the N.O. We have those who's experience of the N.O. think it does not work, and those wonderful people above that have made it work in a variety of churches. Thanks to multiplicity of practice as found in the celebration of the N.O. two opposed points of view can both be correct.
  • GerardH
    Posts: 217
    I'm not arguing that the conclusion is incorrect, just that the methodology is dishonest.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 853
    Additionally, microphones are normal in the new ordo, and present exactly the opposite attitude to chanted Latin propers and Ordinaries.
    With all the things that the Novus Ordo "encouraged", for better or for worse, I can't see how it specifically promoted or called for microphones.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 656
    The ICKSP in Milwaukee mics their celebrant....
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,362
    Must have missed the rubric forbidding microphones in the EF, that is, if there is such.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 928
    @sdtalley3, I’m late in responding but that’s what I meant: we do sing offertory chants (ie-propers) just typically it is the Fr. Weber versions, and not the traditional Gregorian ones.
    Thanked by 1sdtalley3