Bishop Schneider Speaks Out
  • There's this take... he's got cred I don't:

    https://youtu.be/mFaDt1IPEN8
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,293
    More data this time from Iceland,
    https://www.covid.is/data
    And more from the Swiss Doctor,
    In several countries, there is increasing evidence in relation to Covid19 that „the treatment could be worse than the disease“.

    On the one hand, there is the risk of so-called nosocomial infections, i.e. infections that the patient, who may only be mildly ill, acquires in hospital. It is estimated that there are approximately 2.5 million nosocomial infections and 50,000 deaths per year in Europe. Even in German intensive care units, about 15% of patients acquire a nosocomial infection, including pneumonia on artificial respiration. There is also the problem of increasingly antibiotic-resistant germs in hospitals.

    Another aspect is the certainly well-intentioned but sometimes very aggressive treatment methods that are increasingly used in Covid19 patients. These include, in particular, the administration of steroids, antibiotics and anti-viral drugs (or a combination thereof). Already in the treatment of SARS-1 patients, it has been shown that the outcome with such treatment was often worse and more fatal than without such treatment.


    [Unfortunately, by the time this is over we will probably have enough data to get a clear idea of whether treatment or non-treatment works best and under what conditions. In the meantime, this sort of talk is pointless sniping.--admin]
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,872
    That report from Washington State, about 45 cases among 60 people who attended a community choir rehearsal, really is a cautionary example. The fact that only 60 people were willing or able to attend, out of 121 choir members, should have already been a wake-up cue to the rest of the group and to its unfortunately incautious directors. Groups like this tend to have lots of older members, so they need to be more careful than social groups in general.

    The community choir I belong to stopped rehearsals after the first week of March -- perhaps benefitting from the fact that it includes several physicians among its 80 singers.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CHGiffen
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    The symphony chorus I am a member of had its last rehearsal before everything was shut down on March 9. Of course, by then most people had heard about everything, but it wasn't being thought of as a big deal. Rehearsal was pretty full, but there was 1 person hacking (over in the Alto/Tenor side of the rehearsal space) through a lot of rehearsal.
    -The whole time, I was wondering if everyone else was wondering the same thing...
    (Besides which, if you have a cough, you needn't be singing through it and destroying your voice, right?!)
    The pollen had not yet struck.

    I had a slight cold and lost my voice for the rest of the week, just barely having enough of a voice to sing the Vigil Mass that Saturday, which was the day before our bishop gave a general lifting of Sunday obligations, and just days before he said public Masses would no longer be available after St. Joseph's Day.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,615
    Our last time to sing together was March 8. Sunday masses were cancelled a day or so after that and I cancelled all the rehearsals. Looks like we won't need any of that Holy Week/Easter music since masses are cancelled through Easter. It could turn out to be longer, but no one knows at this time.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,293
    We continued singing up until the March 20th when we had a sung Mass in the evening just before our bishops shut down public Masses. Our last choir practice was on the 19th, with one member in self isolation (he is fine). Most of the choir went to the SSPX on the Sunday!
    Other members wanted to meet on the 26th for the normal choir practice, but the Government had encouraged the social distancing by then... We will probably re-start practice before the government removes our semi lockdown*.
    Anyway I am looking forward to Holy Week, it will be a pleasant change, I will be able to follow the liturgy and sing at home with my family. No music to sort out, no absences to cover, no dashing around, just peace (well apart from screaming children!).

    *N.B. The Lockdown in the U.K. is interesting, we can go shopping as normal (We have been asked only to go when needed and not frequently whatever that means) Food shops, take aways, pet shops, sweet shops, liquor stores are all considered essential! We are also encouraged to go for a walk / run / cycle once a day (One of the chief medical officers is an exercise freak and believes it is essential). At least one part of the guidance suggested churches could remain open... My parents (70+ year olds) are still travelling around visiting closed churches in between visiting various shops.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,615
    One thing to remember, the Resurrection is not cancelled.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,872
    Some info about a new Lancet report on the fatality rate of COVID-19, based on data from China:
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200331/covid-19-death-rate-drops-still-deadly-to-seniors
    (tl;dr version: Less bad than some previous projections, but still bad.)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,293
    How the counting works, sources in article and explanation of how the counting is working from the U.K. Office of National Statistics.
    https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200401-coronavirus-why-death-and-mortality-rates-differ

    Even within a country, official statistics can vary according to what you count. In the UK, for example, the Department of Health and Social Care releases daily updates on how many people who tested positive for Covid-19 died that day. This includes any patient who tested positive for Covid-19 but who might have died from another condition (for example, terminal cancer). But the UK’s Office for National Statistics counts all deaths as Covid-19 where Covid-19 was mentioned on the death certificate, regardless of whether they were tested or if it was merely a suspected case of Covid-19.

    one factor at play in Italy’s high figures could be not to do with the virus itself, but with bacteria. The country has the highest numbers of deaths due to antimicrobial resistance in the EU – in fact, a third of all EU deaths from antimicrobial resistance happen in Italy. While antibiotics do precisely nothing to tackle a virus, a viral infection can often open the way for secondary infections or complications like bacterial pneumonia. If that then can’t be treated properly with antibiotics because the bacteria is resistant, then this can be what kills the patient, not the virus itself.


    https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2020/03/31/counting-deaths-involving-the-coronavirus-
    covid-19/
    and
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51979654

    Still looking for the article with reference to the car crash...
    Thanked by 2francis chonak
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,153
    It is now demonstrated that the U of Washington projections are nearly fantasy. Sorry, don't have the cite--but an essay appearing yesterday compared U of W's "hospital beds required" projection with actual hospital beds used, and found the projections were about 80% higher than actual.

    I ran the numbers for Wisconsin--we are using only 44% of the "projected" number. See: https://dad29.blogspot.com/2020/04/healthdataorg-projections-hysterical.html. The post includes links to sources.

  • Elmar
    Posts: 424
    A family member of one of my singers died of covid-19 two days ago. Whatever his/her age and previous health state (which I don't know), I am not inclined to assume that efforts to avoid such instances are misguided.
    What is being perpetuated is the FEAR that will bring unmitigated damage to the global economy and A MUCH LARGER DEATH RATE as a result.
    I don't understand why people don't see this?
    Probably because it's simply wrong. I wish you good luck to convince my singer if you like.
    We have all turned away from God, and now we will suffer the consequences.
    As I grew up in Germany, being catholic means 50% Lutheran anyway. So you are free to blame me!
  • WGS
    Posts: 271
    tomjaw,

    Thanks for that sequential analysis. I especially benefited from the Hoover Institute interview (of course, without the individuals being in the presence of each other) with a Professor of Medicine at Stanford, University.

    A lot of decisions have been made and are being made based on assumptions related to incomplete data.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,981
    Looking on the bright side, I have cut my public excursions to 4 shopping trips a week. Normally I would visit 20 or more shops, 10 coffee bars or cafes, 5 church services, make about 10 bus trips, and spend 5 hours in hospital as a volunteer. I am now very much less likely to catch whatever is 'going around'. There is also a beneficial spiritual possibilty, that I may learn to think more about the 'four last things'.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw francis
  • Governor Abbott, of Texas, has just ordered that counties and cities in Texas may not order the closure of churches, and (additionally) that for the purposes of this "crisis" churches be considered essential. He, apparently, ordered that the usual requirements of distance must be observed... which makes perfect sense.

    Cardinal Burke's message got through somewhere.
    Thanked by 2CCooze tomjaw
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,153
    NYC (unfortunately used as a model by other cities and States) is now counting deaths of people WITH corona as deaths of people FROM corona. Same in Germany, and perhaps elsewhere. Therefore, although some heavy-hitter research profs at Stanford and Yale are doubtful of the numbers and the resulting doom/gloom, various authorities are imposing tighter restrictions. Having a germophobe President does not help, either.

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1245378516721549322.html
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Drake
    Posts: 192
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,293
    Thank God there are wiser leaders than Gov. Abbot leading the church.

    Yawn, I presume you would think it was o.k. if they got this going shopping or visiting a hospital...

    [Stop putting words in other people's mouths.--admin]

    Anyway it all depends on your definition of wise! I wonder how they think they are going to pay the bills in a few weeks time? How many of the tepid catholics are ever going to return to the Church? How many Catholics are going to shut their wallets?

    Why do we need a Church that just follows the secular authorities? Why do we need a Church that has nothing to say except go sit at home and pray? What are all those buildings, the relics, the works of art, and most importantly the Mass and the sacraments for if the doors close when a few people die? What witness does this give?

    Anyway I am glad we have such bishops / leaders, it really shows that this is the One True Church, any human endeavour with such leadership would collapse within a fortnight.
    Thanked by 2Incardination CCooze
  • Elmar
    Posts: 424
    No one blames you for anything.
    Francis' point is that we (all of us, even Americans and Germans and even those in the Amazon region and TLM parishes) need to repent of our unbelief and our indifference and pride because God wants us to stop sinning.
    I should have made my remark purple for clarity ... this way it makes sense to me.
    I seem to have misunderstood "now we have to suffer the consequences" (of turning away from God) as if God sent a pandemic as a reaction to our lack of faith ... I totally agree that our panicking (in the face of sickness and loss of earthly wealth) rather than accepting the reality of suffering, is a consequence of our lukewarm faith.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,872
    why are bishops and priests not leading public processions of penitence and penitents?


    But they are. Every parish with drive-in confessions or other outdoor confessions has one.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Elmar
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,153
    Another question: why not more "parking lot" Masses? Yes, I said that in Wisconsin, in April, priests might have to wear several layers UNDER the alb and be prepared for sleet, snow, hail, or tornados. Then Chonak came up with a picture....

    Anyhow, no Bishop in this State has spoken up and said "Hold a parking-lot Mass!"

    Curious, no?
    Thanked by 2Elmar tomjaw
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,872
    Yes, I happened to have that picture from WI because Ben Yanke had shared it with me. Happy to illustrate.
    Thanked by 2Elmar tomjaw
  • Chonak,
    Your point is well made, but I meant, rather, a public procession with Christ and Our Lady at the head, and hymns, chants, rosaries, litanies and such.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,872
    Incidentally, I don't think Gov. Abbott was off-base in his directive.

    There is a distinction that needs to be made. The civil authorities should urge the Church to limit or close public events, and the pastors of the Church are right to follow that advice.

    At the same time, the principle of free exercise of religion needs to be affirmed explicitly. In a society where many people do not respect the Church, we cannot let officials create a precedent in which the state claims the right to shut down religious practice at the state's discretion. The state is not the supreme authority over the rights of the Church.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,615

    Exactly. If we know that repentance is essential for forgiveness, why are bishops and priests not leading public processions of penitence and penitents?


    We were planning a public procession with monstrance, etc. until the diocese shut us down. It wasn't the civil authorities.
    Thanked by 3Drake CCooze tomjaw
  • Elmar
    Posts: 424
    The civil authorities should urge the Church to limit or close public events, and the pastors of the Church are right to follow that advice.
    At the same time, the principle of free exercise of religion needs to be affirmed explicitly. In a society where many people do not respect the Church, we cannot let officials create a precedent in which the state claims the right to shut down religious practice at the state's discretion.
    Here in the Netherlands the religious entities got an exemption of the no-more-than-two-people-or-family-together rule. The prime minister (liberals) pushed back a call to withdraw that exempiton: first that would be unconstitutional; second the churches had already (witin 24h that is) taken measures, within their responsibility, like canceling all public services. They should be considered an excellent example.
    Remind you, this is Holland. We really shouldn't comlpain about general attitude against christianism these days. I tend to say: the Holy Spirit IS working through this situation.
  • And it's probably good to stop saying "the bishops" or "the priests" as blanket terms, since there is a wide range of variance in their responses to this. Some are responding by attacking their pet peeves (such as communion on the tongue), or trying to one-up the state in making restrictions. Others are doing what seems more basic and prudential. Given the way bishops and priests act in normal times, it's no surprise that there are some outliers in this situation.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,876
    Why tow a cow when you can kowtow? Just sayin'.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,046
    You can turn the cow into steaks and hamburger!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,876
    Let's milk that one for all it's worth!!
    Thanked by 2CharlesW bhcordova
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,872
    [Time to purge this thread of the chaff.]

    [PS: Mildly purged.]
    [PPS: Moderately purged.]
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 218
    I think the comparisons with the flu are rather missing the point. First of all Coronavirus has a death rate an order of magnitude higher than the flu. Secondly, it sends a high proportion of people to the ICU. Somewhere around 5% if memory serves, and 15% require hospitalization. As we saw in Italy, the health system can be rapidly overwhelmed. If all ICUs are full, where do you send heart attack and car crash victims? The whole point of all this physical distancing is to slow the spread so that health systems can cope.

    In my province, Québec, we have 11 ICU beds for every 100,000 population; it's a middling figure for western democracies. If 10% of that population are infected, and 5% end up in the ICU, you need 500 beds but only have 11. Big problem!

    We already have cancer surgeries being put off here because of the pandemic's impact on the health system.

    In any case the discussion is a moot point for us in Québec. The government has banned ALL religious assemblies and all groups of 2 or more people who don't live under the same roof.

    So what if I can't have access to the sacraments. God is no tyrant. He understands, and I'm more than willing to put my trust in Him that when all returns to normal, He'll still be there for us, and until then, if we were to croak, He won't kick us into hell because we couldn't confess or commune during the pandemic. Ye of little faith, have trust in our Saviour!

    Ora
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,779
    .
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 218
    A big thumbs down, Francis. I was speaking of during these exceptional circumstances.

    Peace be with you.

    Ora
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,779
    removed... Just my take.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,872
    Please do not caricature other people's comments. It is an obligation of charity to take other people's words in a manner that is consistent with orthodox faith, if possible.
    Thanked by 2Elmar Carol
  • Some questions that might put a different context on the question...

    Is the Chinese / Wuhan / Corona virus more deadly than, say, the persecutions of the early centuries? Than the persecutions under "good queen Bess"?

    Do we engage in essential activities currently or during these past several weeks (e.g. food shopping) that potentially involve some degree of social engagement? If yes, do we take some common-sense steps to mitigate the risk involved?

    Is it possible that Mass and the Sacraments could be conveyed in some way as to mitigate risk from some limited degree of social engagement?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Ora,

    I didn't see Francis' original post (which has, evidently, been removed).

    Let me reply less caustically than he has done.

    So what if I can't have access to the sacraments.


    It will largely depend on why you don't have access to the sacraments. If there is a priest who makes a circuit of the American South, and you can't attend Mass when he's in some part of the South where you don't live, clearly you can't be held accountable for the situation. On the other hand, clerics who refuse to make Confession available, except by appointment, and refuse to allow anonymous confession except in a Reconciliation Room, will have a severe reckoning. The early Christians were asked, "Why not just give up the Mass",.... and they said that they would die without the Mass, and then suffered martyrdom rather than abandon Mass and the other Sacraments. The truth mattered to them that much, and God rewarded them for their fidelity and love.

    God is no tyrant.


    Of course He is no tyrant. He is, nevertheless, clear about what He expects us to do, and assures us that Hell is a very real possibility, even for those who cry out, "Lord, Lord!" Tyrants are unreasonable and arbitrary. God is neither. He actually knows what is good for us, what we need, and when and how we need it. He tells us baptism is necessary, and that we must confess our sins and, through the Church, that we must fast and abstain at particular times. He loves us so much that He doesn't want us to remain in our sins or, remaining in them, choose Hell.

    He understands


    This is, often, the first line of argument for those who don't want to follow the moral law. I don't know if it is in your case, so I won't presume to comment on that, but the false mercy of Amoris Laetitia and the presumption of the Amazon Synod and the whole Pachamama nonsense all begin from this basis.

    and I'm more than willing to put my trust in Him that when all returns to normal, He'll still be there for us, and until then, if we were to croak, He won't kick us into hell because we couldn't confess or commune during the pandemic


    Are you, similarly, willing to put your trust in Him, that He will protect you if you run the blockade and attend Mass? The argument (again, I don't know you from Adam) is the same as one advanced by those who abuse alcohol or children. What if things don't get back to normal? Imagine someone being cavalier about sin and working in, say, Coventry or Dresden, or Hiroshima.

    Ye of little faith,

    Really?

    have trust in our Saviour!


    Why do you presume that people who urge us to do what the Church has always done in the past somehow lack faith in the Saviour? Remember, He's also the Just Judge who can neither deceive nor be deceived.
    Thanked by 3francis CCooze tomjaw
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,779
    CGZ... mine was similar, but I was a bit angry... mea culpa
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,872
    Incardination touches on an important point. Our deprivations, running only a few weeks at this point, are small compared to those of many Catholics in the world now and to those of past generations.

    To say "so what if I can't have access to the sacraments" in the current state of things is to take this into perspective.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,779
    As long as the priest is still offering the HSOTM, it is not critical that we are there, just that it continues in our stead. Confession is a whole 'nother matter. It could be a matter of life or death for eternity.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Chonak,

    In days gone by, an interdict caused riots and acts of violence against the temporal ruler who had brought this upon his people. "So what if we can't have access to the sacraments" isn't the same thing as "O God, grant that our privation be quickly brought to an end."
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,872
    When deprived of access to the sacrament of Confession, we are to do what the Church has told us to do: make an act of perfect contrition, firmly intending to confess our sins when the opportunity comes, and hope in God.

    No matter what erroneous images have been spread in the past by misguided preachers (one may think, for example, of Jonathan Edwards' "Sinners in the hands of an angry God"), we must keep in mind that God, the almighty and supreme God, is not the enemy of mankind.

    CGZ: already you misquote Ora: he wrote: "So what if I can't..." (Not "we".) He was downplaying his personal deprivation. This is unlike some people who seem to heighten their personal and interpersonal drama far too often.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Elmar
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,872
    By the way, since Ora is writing from Quebec, I am going to consider that he may be writing in a second language, and that if anything seems unclear, that might be a partial explanation for it. (Ref: Guidelines, n. 15.)


  • OraLabora
    Posts: 218
    Indeed. It's a small sacrifice I'm willing to take. It pales compared to being beheaded for your faith, or not having access to sacraments for years, or having to risk your life by attending an underground church. That was meant to be the context of my message.

    I'm more than happy to: 1) say an act of perfect contrition resolving to seek sacramental confession as soon as possible; 2) commune spiritually and especially pray with and for the community which 3) I can do liturgically as I can still fully participate in that "other" liturgy of the Church, the Liturgy of the Hours.

    It's not perfect, but I'm not keen on the COVID-19 risks being 61 and diabetic (though very well controlled), and it behooves all of us to slow the spread of this virus for the greater good as some folks have even greater risk factors than I do. Moreover Mass is still being said for us. I spoke to my spiritual director at the abbey today and he told me how they did the Palm Sunday Mass. I know the monks would rather have us there, but they've been locked down since before the government decrees given their advanced average age (over 70, with three monks in their 90s and many more in their 80s)

    'Nuff said, I'll continue praying and chanting my way through this.

    Ora
  • Our deprivations, running only a few weeks at this point, are small compared to those of many Catholics in the world now and to those of past generations.

    I suppose you could look at it that way. On the other hand, those who might say "we don't need to attend Mass or have the Sacraments because there is a risk of exposure" might have forgotten about those who in earlier times of the Church's history attended Mass knowing that to be caught was virtually 100% fatal.

    The question is, can we have Mass in a public way that minimizes degree of social interaction to a reasonable level? Or are we only capable of doing that in a purely secular endeavor?

    For the Catholic, Mass and the Sacraments are an essential. That is not a question, simply a statement of fact.

    Where would we draw the line? Is it based on mortality rate? Is it based on the fact that one human life might be lost? Really? That's the sum total of 2000 years of Church history? Of countless martyrs? Of countless saints?

    People arguing this question act as if there is only one extreme or the other. Either we must all attend and all infect one another, or we must abandon our Liturgy in the name of science.

    The real thrust of my questions is - maybe we should discuss coming up with common-sense solutions that mitigate the risk of actions that ARE essential.
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 218
    I suppose you could look at it that way. On the other hand, those who might say "we don't need to attend Mass or have the Sacraments because there is a risk of exposure" might have forgotten about those who in earlier times of the Church's history attended Mass knowing that to be caught was virtually 100% fatal.


    Yes but the scientific knowledge of how germs spread, or even that it was "germs" responsible, was not known back then. With knowledge, comes responsibility to use it well.

    The real thrust of my questions is - maybe we should discuss coming up with common-sense solutions that mitigate the risk of actions that ARE essential.


    That will depend on one's location. In mine, the government has decreed that all places of worship, be them churches, synagogues or mosques, are to remain closed. It doesn't leave us with any options!

    We've been through this before. In January 1998 we had a severe ice storm and we were without Mass for a month; all churches closed because none of them had any heat or power.

    Now if the government said that we couldn't have the sacraments ever again in Québec, or somehow the Church was prohibited, then that would be something to get worked up about. But sorry, for my purposes a temporary closure of churches because of a pandemic strikes me as simply a sensible precaution and a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

    Ora
    Thanked by 2Elmar cmb
  • CharlesSA
    Posts: 150
    All of what Ora is saying is fine - he as an individual is taking personal, reasonable precautions based on personal health. Having been granted the dispensation, he should (and obviously does) have a clean conscience.

    Of course, everyone else should have a clean conscience as well, in the sense that attendance at Mass is basically impossible, but the point of debate is whether all public Masses should have been banned, with all forbidden from attending, with no exceptions.

    Also, Incardination's "virtually 100% fatal" comment seems to have been referring to an underground Christian being caught attending Mass - or in many cases, just being a Christian - not to a virus. The question (among others) raised being, should they not have gone to Mass when they knew that they would likely be put to death. Obviously the situation today is not the same, but it still raises similar questions.
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,615
    Too many, I think, speculate on the horrid things that could happen to us if we don't conform to their idea of a perfect church, perfect liturgy, perfect music, and on and on. All of it is nonsense in this situation.

    No one here has been left in charge to dictate to anyone what they should or could do. Our bishops have decided our available courses of action and in some places, the state has done the same. There are no masses to attend other than streamed masses that we can watch on a screen. Bitch and moan all you like. It changes nothing.
    Thanked by 2Elmar OraLabora
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,872
    There are no masses to attend other than streamed masses that we can watch on a screen.
    Well, musicians and people with enough computer skills to run a video stream have an advantage at being invited to assist at the private Masses still going on.
    Thanked by 3CCooze francis Elmar