Bishop Schneider Speaks Out
  • jpnz71
    Posts: 65
    Francis - That box is wishful thinking. Despite its admonishment, the views expressed on this forum by members or non-members do reflect on CMAA, and far too often, not in a good way.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,618
    JPNZ71

    Hey look. If CMAA tried to eliminate everything it thought innapropiate, this forum would have been discontinued years ago... but we are all STILL here having civil conversations about our interest in Sacred Music, the church, the world, and other interesting topics. This forum is well moderated (thanks to our moderator for all his hard work keeping us respectful)
    Thanked by 2bhcordova tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,373
    jpnz71: As W.C. Fields the great comedian said:

    I am free of all prejudice.
    I hate everyone equally.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,618
    Yes, Charles... we know about you. :)

    purple, bro.
  • jpnz71
    Posts: 65
    Francis - yes, you are right. And how influential is CMAA compared to NPM? This forum may be well moderated when it comes to civil conversation, but not when it comes to moderating for advancing CMAA as an organization to be taken seriously by Bishops, priests or anyone else of influence who might be in a position to make actual change to liturgy or music.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,618
    Let's get another thread going on that one... would you like to start it? This one has a different subject.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,373
    Back to coronavirus, Dr Fauci said today he thinks the virus will be seasonal. This could change a number of things.

    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,618
    it's called youhoo virus
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,373

    The yoohoo virus is, Yoohoo dwell in the shelter of the Lord...
  • jpnz71
    Posts: 65
    Francis - If you want to start that thread, I'll comment on it. I don't think my comments are off topic. This, and another thread I commented on, were started to address whether or not public liturgy should be cancelled. Many of the comments that followed were not conducive to building the credibility of CMAA or the positions on liturgy and music which it advances. I know most people on this forum don't care what I think about this - fine. But I can assure you, if the the priests I know and have worked for, including my present priest and Bishop, read some of these comments, they would take CMAA less seriously, not more, and would dismiss its positions on liturgy and music as being far too closely aligned with conspiracy theorists, science deniers and confederate flag supporters. This is not me being a bully. This is me telling all of you how things are out here in real life music ministry work. Take it or leave it. Just don't complain about the relative music and liturgy wasteland found in the typical Catholic parish if you chose to leave it.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,618
    JPNZ71
    If you want to start that thread, I'll comment on it.

    I did.
    I know most people on this forum don't care what I think...
    On the contrary, we care very much and have been trying to bring perspective to all that you raise.
    This is me telling all of you how things are out here in real life music ministry work. Take it or leave it.
    I took it for about five decades and I finally left and joined this wily group instead until THEY can't take me any longer and kick me out.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,184
    @jpnz71
    give voice to the ignorant/cruel on social and cultural issues

    Yes. It looks bad to call everyone racist and bigoted.
    Whether or not you think that you sound enlightened, nobody will take you seriously for your random insults to everyone and the fact that you jump wildly from one subject to another, and then combine them all to say that everyone else are crazy racists.

    I'm glad you felt confident enough to randomly join the forum just in time to make everyone aware of their ignorance...

    Honestly, @chonak , his presence is almost the exact definition of a "troll."
    [You have a point. Sometimes people seem to join the forum just to complain a lot, throw a tantrum, and stalk off in a huff. I think it means they have other issues, really, and are just venting them on us. --admin]
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • There are those who have done this as a way to assign the origins of this virus to unclean outsiders, from which the virus has then invaded the U.S. Thanks to them, it is too late to claim that calling this the Wuhan or Chinese virus is not racist

    This is the epitome of circular reasoning. You reference an unsubstantiated claim of racism on the part of person(s) XYZ, claiming to know their motives. Based on the way you indiscriminately judge people or arguments to be racist, that unsubstantiated claim is further in doubt... but you try to use that to prove other people are either ignorantly or purposefully racist from making the same reference to Chinese / Wuhan flu - terminology that was widely used by ALL major reporting very early on.

    I would think Catholics would go out of their way to avoid doing any such thing, keeping the life and teachings of Jesus in mind.

    "Without knowing what he said, he said it."
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Schönbergian
  • jpnz71
    Posts: 65
    No, I am not a troll. I am an organist and music director working in the Roman Catholic Church. I have long hoped CMAA and the positions on music and liturgy it represents could make inroads into the Catholic parishes I have worked, and the Catholic Church as a whole. I have followed CMAA and this forum for all the years I've been working in sacred music. I commented on this and the Cardinal Burke thread because it is clear to me that the perspectives articulated on social/cultural/political issues voices on these and other forum threads are holding CMMA back, and thus getting in the way of advancing the perspectives on liturgy and music I wish could be heard and heeded by priests and parishes.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 782
    Anyone with any common sense whatsoever is not going to look to a public forum for information on whether or not an organization is good or not. If someone does come here, read the opinions of a few people on a variety of topics and uses that to assume that everyone involved with the CMAA think that way (which is obviously not the case based on what I read), and come to that conclusion, then I would question that person's ability to make any reasonably well-informed decision.

    I do not have such a low opinion of my pastor that I would be afraid he would do something so foolish as that.
    Thanked by 3WGS tomjaw bhcordova
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,101
    the purpose of flattening the curve is to ensure that the hospital system is never overwhelmed


    Since the fifty percent reduction in projected hospital room requirements announced today, there is near-zero danger of "overwhelmed," although a couple of cities (NY) may have near-capacity. Of course, the President sent 1,000 rooms which float, complete with all the MD's, nurses, equipment, etc. That should help.

    As you know, Italy is a FAR different situation than the US in sociological terms. They are not a good model-basis, although for some unknown reason they became one.

    Here, some States and/or cities have decreed that residents must remain inside. Glad to hear your situation is different.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw rich_enough
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,740
    People with the time to quarrel with others on internet forums like this would do better to practice their music, study their Latin, or say their prayers.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen francis WGS
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,747
    I regret making any contributions whatsoever (even the facetious ones) to this thread.

    Holy Week is here, and it is time to ponder and prepare, even if by ourselves, for the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of our Lord.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,740
    [Note: The SPR site has a list of over a dozen articles about "The Jewish lobby", so that's not a site acceptable for posting here.--admin]
  • jpnz71
    Posts: 65
    Chonak - I did not join this forum to vent, or because I have other issues, as you posted above. Rather, I joined because I am tired of seeing links like SPR, and comments informed by this and similar groups, being used on this forum in ways that drag down the credibility of CMAA. CMAA can be better than this and has the potential to do lots of good. If that is venting, or represents other issues, I guess I am guilty as charged.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,618
    What is the SPR?? I missed it. San Pedro Airport??
    [It's the site tomjaw was citing with material from a "Swiss doctor", who is a retired professor in New York. As it happens, it was appearing on a fringe web site that also appears to have a bad agenda. I assume tomjaw had no idea about that.--admin]
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 991
    I know I have been one of those raising the alarm. In my defense, I have an ulterior motive. I value each and every one of you and don't want to see your voices silenced because you are not taking this seriously enough.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,184
    Two interesting videos:
    MN Senator, Doctor Jensen said that he received a 7 page document from the MN Department of Health advising him to fill out death certificates with a diagnosis of COVID-19 whether the person actually died from COVID-19 or not.
  • Corinne,

    Why would the Department of Health knowingly falsify records?
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 991
    What is Dr. Jensen's political agenda? Whenever a politician speaks, you have to take whatever is said with a mountain of salt. Did he allow viewing of the document in this video of sufficient clarity and with enough time for it to be read? Many politicians are more concerned about getting the donations of big corporations (many of who want to remain open, since their bottom line is all they care about) than caring for the well-being of their constituents. Is he purposely or mistakenly misrepresenting the advice in the document?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,740
    I don't think they're trying to falsify: they're recommending that doctors assign a cause of death based on symptoms alone. The example the senator gives is a patient who has coughing, fever, and rapid decline (dies in three days). Those are three symptoms of the disease. If any of you are medical workers, perhaps you can advise about whether assigning a COD based on symptoms is a common practice in epidemics.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,740
    On another topic, the advice of the "Swiss doctor" is not working out well in practice so far. Sweden has followed a policy like his: to quarantine only the elderly. While Sweden's rate of infections is similar to that of neighboring countries, its reported death rate from the virus is higher. These are my calculations based on figures from the worldometers site as of 4/8:

    Country : Cases per 100,000 population : Deaths per 100,000 population

    Denmark : 93.3 : 3.72
    Finland : 44.9 : 0.72
    Norway : 111.5 : 1.56
    Sweden : 83.4 : 6.80
  • Let me rephrase my question.

    CONTEXT:
    Dr. Jensen seems to imply that his instructions are to attribute to COVID-19 any deaths which happen during the infestation (or whatever we want to call it) regardless of the actual cause of death.

    QUESTIONS: What possible reason would the Department of Health have for issuing such instructions? Which is more credible: Dr. Jensen or the Department of Health? Is "advice" really a directive, or is it actually, just advice? (It was an insupportable instruction under the Obama administration, for example, and I can believe that it might be under Mr. Trump, too.)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,740
    Chris, instead of asking vague questions that seem to invite mere speculation, why not just give your own view directly?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,184
    Chonak, he said in the video that testing positive was sufficient enough, according to the directive, to list it as cod, when normally the underlying condition would be the actual "cause," and basically not something else (coronavirus) they happened to have that may or may not have hurried it along.
  • Chonak,

    I didn't think I was being vague. I'm not sure what I think,yet, which is why I asked the question.

  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,740
    CCooze, I can see how there could be some debate about what should be declared as a cause of death: a chronic condition that weakened a patient over a long period, or an acute illness that finished the patient off with a crisis. They're probably both valid for differing scientific uses, so I would just urge people not to treat either one as a falsification.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,740
    Here are your questions, Chris:
    What possible reason would the Department of Health have for issuing such instructions?

    Which is more credible: Dr. Jensen or the Department of Health?

    Is "advice" really a directive, or is it actually, just advice?

    These questions are not about factual knowledge. This is just asking for opinions and speculations.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,184
    not to treat either one as a falsification


    The way that doctor/senator spoke about it was as though he specifically thought of it as a falsification.
  • Chonak,

    Behind a policy pronouncement there is usually a rationale. Accordingly, I asked why the DOH issued such an instruction, assuming Dr. Jensen has presented it accurately. I'm not asking for speculation.

    On the question of credibility, BHCordova expressed the opinion that when politicians speak, we should take whatever they say with a mountain of salt. In the case of Dr. Jensen, has he consistently spoken accurately, or is he one of the hacks who work for the media, and thus produce soundbites? This is, again, a case of factual information, not merely speculation. Except that the DOH is an institution instead of a person, a similar inquiry is appropriate.

    On the question of "advice", this, too, should be properly treated as a factual question: does the language of the decree match similar language in mandates or in suggestions?



    Now, it's possible to mistake my meaning, and construe the questions other than I intend. It would be possible for me (or anyone) to ask such questions intending other than I presently intend; knowing context is valuable to assess accurately the difference.

  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,336
    .