Get a different basilica. The volume of San Pietro is several times that of the Abbey.

Perhaps we should blame the liturgical culture of the Novus Ordo. I have never heard the Julian choir, so I can't make a judgment of their technique, but perhaps the problem is that they simply do what most Catholic cathedral choirs seem to do: banal "parish liturgy" but with brass quintet.

My guess is that most basilican choirs today do a four-hymn sandwich, plus responsorial psalm by Italy's answer to Lucien Deiss.

Now, now - don't blame it on the Novus Ordo. The Sistine Chapel choir's tradition is to be bad, They have upheld this tradition for far longer that the time since the Novus Ordo appeared. Noel said it well: 'disdain for what the rest of the world thinks'. And, I suspect that being Italian has something to do with it.

Well, the Novus Ordo badly and cheaply done is reprehensible - but, so is it with the Extraordinary Form (both before and after VII). As long as we are talking about liturgy that does not achieve its true and intended heights, let us be fair and recall that the Ef boasted and boasts its fair share of poor praxis. The problem is not the rite, nor the fallacy that this rite invites badness more than that other rite, but what's in the heads of those who are celebrating it.

In other words, if one is talking about badly performed liturgy, there is plenty to talk about relative to both EF and OF.
And, if one is talking about beaurtifully performed liturgy, there is plenty to talk about relative to both EF and OF.

Oh, I completely agree, praxis can be 'exceeding bad' in both forms, but I think that the Novus Ordo has not only welcomed it, but canonized it, in a way over the past 50 years with "in these or similar words". I know that most instances of this rubric were removed from the third typical edition, and those translations based on it, but most priests still act as if it is there, ad libbing their way through most of the introductory rites, etc. And don't mention the Prayers of the Faithful.

I know that the O.F. can support good liturgy, I do it every day. But the reality is that the Bromptons of the world are few and far between.

I have doubts whether this post is a great idea, for a lot of reasons. Two questions immediately arise: Would anyone want their own program discussed like this? Were the opinions quoted in the post intended for publication?

Etc etc

I wonder if Frescobaldi had any comments about the difficulty of singing there?

I mean, when you remove modern amplification of sound, it would be a different sounding room and with the overall loudness of spoken sound pressure reduced to a human voice production level, it would be quite a different room, designed as it and all cathedrals are to amplify sound naturally.

Those of you that have been under the hand of solidly good and even great conductors, one might take a closer look at the conducting style of the present choirmaster of the Sistine Choir. I, for one, with all due respect to him, would have a difficult time following him. I saw a lengthy interview with him and he is certainly very knowledgeable. However, I know from first hand experiences that most church musicians are first and foremost, organists and not expert choral trainers or directors. This is especially true in regards to the training of boys and girls voices.

Choristers these days are not trained to develop a singing BEL CANTO vocal technic based on the foundation of a relaxed yawning jaw and lowered Adam's apple. Choirmasters on the European continent and in the USA would do well, in general, to apprentice themselves to some of the finer choral director of men and boys choir; especially in England and Wales. The men and boys choir and its music director at St. Mary Cathedral in Sydney, Australia are world class first rate! The Anglican Cathedral in Melbourne is pretty darn good too! Its a sad thing that Sir George Guest, Dr. Boris Ord and Robert Shaw are no longer with us!

Finally, in watching and observing many church choirs, especially men and boys and the choir at the Vatican specifically, their discipline needs some work in things like keeping their focus totally on the director at all times instead of looking around, squirming and proper bodily stance for singing - no collapsed chests please! However, in my opinion, I think its a great and wonderful thing that some of the great choirs of the world are singing at the Vatican alongside the Sistine choir in their tours and visits! I applaud that whole heartedly. In some areas, I have noticed an improvement in the Sistine Choir.

And yet I think there is a general consensus that the music in the Vatican is considerably improved in comparison to where it was 25 years ago.

Hear, for example, the 1992 Christmas Mass: https://youtu.be/E6oG8EyqOC0?t=2m7s

And the 2016 Christmas Mass: https://youtu.be/_1NbTs8EKAU?t=14m44s

I am heartened to hear that things are improving and that there is new leadership.

Lately, I am sure we don't deserve the Vatican.

the title might read, "Do We Deserve Better _______________ in the Vatican?"

Yes.

One might add that the precepts of Vatican II as regards participation by the faithful in the mass are not even thought of as applying to the EF - though I wonder why it should be immune to them. Could it be that those who champion the EF imagine (erroneously) that the EF is a way of avoiding these very precepts? Far from it. It is hardly far fetched to aver that what VII had to say about the people actively participating in those parts of the mass that pertain to them applies to every form of the Roman rite. Nowhere is it writ or implied that they apply only to the NO.

I echo the sentiments of Settifrate and Kathy.
That said, I still fail to determine any benefit to the now typically-hijacked thread. Though I understand and am extremely sympathetic towards the halcyon-laced dreams of a TLM-only future, continued kvetching and harping about same only tends to further isolate the "us" of it from reality. I'm happy I only have to drive 20 miles for a Cantius-version NO. I fought the good fight at my own parish for a quarter century, and it's hardly likely the situation there will ever approach the reverential, ad orientem NO in the next town. But if tilting at windmills is still one's thing, tilt on.

And I heartily associate myself with Jackson’s comments about participation. See the notes of the young Joseph Ratzinger at the Council on that very point.

Kenneth

c) If what takes place within the Vatican precincts (musically speaking) is (rather than should be) the pinnacle of implementation of the reforms of the late Council,....... I find myself biting hard so as not to say something I might regret.

Sure, I wish it were better. But nostalgia is often inaccurate and those memories not actually as remembered. Vatican music was never that good.

a) Given what is happening in the Catholic world right now, with majorities voting to remove protections for the unborn from the Constitution in Ireland, and alarming numbers of people who don't see any difference separating real marriage from its various counterfeits, and the number who apparently prefer (both among clerics and laymen) the life of the mind promoted by the Missal of Paul VI...... if we get what we deserve, the current music at the Vatican is quite generous.

And they want to canonize Paul VI, probably a saintly man but an inept pope. He may have caused/aided/promoted a loss of faith greater than Luther.

It's a crazy time we live in. I can only hope it gets better but I am not encouraged by what I see and hear.

Lately, I am sure we don't deserve the Vatican.

Oh yes we do. In spades. Ask St. John Eudes.
Or maybe we don't deserve it because what we DO deserve is far worse.

"The Catholic Church is an institution I am bound to hold divine - but for unbelievers a proof of its divinity might be found in the fact that no merely human institution conducted with such knavish imbecility would have lasted a fortnight." Hilaire Belloc

I agree with tomjaw about Westminster Cathedral. If only we had more Cathedrals celebrating Sung Mass and Vespers every day. It's not like it would be impossible in the OF, either. Jubilate Deo or Missa Simplex for the Mass and it's not like the LOTH is super long or hard to recto tono anyways.

Hey, that's my line!

the east has done fine without it for a thousand years.

For values of "fine" that include being ruled by Godless Communists for 70 years.

For values of "fine" that include being ruled by Godless Communists for 70 years.

Only in Russian territories by communists. Other places, Muslims, Catholics, and/or godless capitalists, as mentioned above, along with just the purely godless.

let us be done with choral and organ music... MUCH too limiting and rigid!

We are now elevating our musicality linked to the calling on the 'western grandmother'... using a turkey bone as the musical instrument of choice... (4:08 to hear the music)