Gift of Finest Wheat
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    At NLM there was a heated discussion (argument complete with excomunications, as is usual there) over the hymn "Gift of Finest Wheat". So, simple question: is it appropriate for Mass? I've often said that the bishops shouldn't decide this, but us musicians. So let's convene a council and settle this once and for all! Here's my case that it is:

    I suspect that a LOT of the reaction against it is due to guilt by association: this has been a favorite of parish music as it has been for the past 40 years (well, since it was written...) However, it wasn't written to be strummed by a guitar or crooned by a cantor; it was written to be sung SATB and played by a pipe organ. That kind of guilt by association is odd and winds up affecting not a few good contemporary pieces: I am the Bread of Life; Lift High the Cross, Respond & Acclaim, etc. I'll just post my last NLM comment:

    Nothing in the composition of GoFW is related to pop music. I took a cursory look at the harmonic progression - most of it follows classical rather than modern rules. Even though the harmonic rhythm is irregular, the accompaniment moves on the quarter beat. The strategic usage of suspensions is another thing used in classic literature rather than popular.

    You mentioned chant - this is written almost in the style of the 3rd or 4th mode, ending on the third and not the tonic. The melody is unrushed but subservient to the text. This is essentially chant.

    You say to consider the natural setting - I have never heard this hymn on a guitar. Even thinking of it brings to mind an organ. The verses demand to be sung in SATB harmony. If there's anything popish about this, I don't see it.

    As communion music, I'd say it trumps "Panis Angelicus", with the Lambilotte tune which makes use of romanticized chromaticism to get effect. Adoro Te? No way. But it's up there next to it, a modern heir to the devotional tradition.

    (and by the way, I already pointed out that the BEST music for communion is the proper antiphon. But many churches can't yet USE the proper antiphon. And there's nothing at all wrong with singing a hymn after Mass, in the OF or EF, so the topic is STILL relevant)
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Oops, moderator, could you please move this to "management of music programs"?

    You might want to fix that whole thing where you can select "-- PLEASE SELECT A CATEGORY --" as a category...
  • Sorry, Gavin, gotta disagree with your contention with the Lambilotte "Panis Angelicus" in terms of lesser suitability than GoFW, romantic chromaticism aside. I'll take it's elegant melody over the incessant intervallic leaps from Dr. Kreutz anyday. But, that doesn't indicate any judgment of mine that GoFW is unsuitable or artistically unworthy.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Well in fairness, every hymn composition style has its oddities. English use leapwise motion, Germans use stepwise, late 19th-century tunes use shmaltzy chromaticism, and GoFW uses large leaps. On a personal level, I prefer the 6ths or whatever to the minor 2nds in Lambilotte. But that's my opinion. I suppose my point was more to point out that Lambilotte used chromatic cheese because it was the popular style of the time - not terribly different from old Gospel tunes. Say what one may about the suspensions and 6ths, but GoFW's oddities aren't due to a mimicry of pop music. Lambilotte is. And I'm not saying that's good or bad - just that one should judge fairly.
    Thanked by 1ZacPB189
  • I didn't understand the problem with Gift of Finest Wheat. It's not my favorite, but I have a personal connection to it that perhaps clouds my judgment. My mom sang alto in the mass chorus in Philadelphia for the Eucharistic Congress in 1976 when the hymn was unveiled. It's a modern-day hymn, written with tradition in mind, I believe. Since I'm a bass, I don't sing the tune very well, but it's not the biggest problem in church music right now.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,612
    I too don't understand why excommunication has been levied against this hymn? What are the charges? It is by far, more musically sound than most of the trash that is parading around the table of communal meal. I took a quick gander at the text, and nothing stands out as being heretical or doctrinally unsound, but perhaps I am missing something.
  • You know how all music must be understood in its cultural context, how our responses to it are triggered by associations? My association with this piece is bad Christian pop performance in liturgy. So it makes me shiver. That's about all I can say about it.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I myself have "banned" Holy God We Praise Thy Name because, while it's an awesome and majestic hymn, I associate it with, and it is so sung by my congregation, the folk rendition with swing rhythms, unwritten extraneous notes ("infinite thy vast do-o-main..."), and other nonsense. Oh, and repeating the last line. But I'd argue that has a BIT more legitimacy, since it affects the congregation's performance of it, than "all the happy-clappy churches like it". I would ask if those such as Jeff would also favor doing away with the Gothic chausible on the grounds that happy-clappy priests wear poncho-looking rip-offs, but at NLM we often see the answer on that from the commentariat. Not that I'm saying Jeff is in that category (as far as I know... I always thought he's quite sane) but I don't think such argument is fair to either consider the hymn as unsuitable for worship nor to run down a music program or musician for using that hymn.
  • Lawrence
    Posts: 123
    Thanks to all of you folks on this thread, I've got GoFW stuck in my head.

    For that, I'm excommunicating all of you;-)
  • And herein lies the real problem with hymns. Of course this forum cannot become a place to debate the merits of this or that hymn, as if we are in some sort of liturgy planning committee. I think I've been to two or three of those in my life and I'm still recovering.

    I'm certain that we all agree that discussions of CIhurch music cannot be reduced to a dispute about taste. There are as many tastes as there are stations on the radio --more actually.

    Associations do matter, and Gavin's point about Holy God is a valid one (of course I know he wasn't citing that only to provoke me!). I'm all for replacing Holy God with the full Te Deum sung by the all the people. Let's get going on that!
  • Jscola30
    Posts: 116
    I believe the extra notes in Holy God are written in some old versions of it (St. Basil, Pius X), and two modern hymnals I know of, HPSC, and Adoremus. I have never gotten a straight answer as to which is the original version, why are those ommitted or not (when everyone still sings it with the extra notes).

    As for personal associations, that to me seems not a good enough reason to ban any hymn. I always associate Holy God with loud organ or as the end of a Benediction service. No guitars, no swinging rhythms. If it has been done at your parish in a folky way, then maybe try it in its original form. Of course, if your parish is ready to do a chanted Te Deum, by all means. I've heard bad, folksy performances of Immaculate Mary. But I'd never ban it, I still think its a great hymn.


    As far as GFW, to me, its not the worst thing, nor the best. If you guys should find a copy of HSPC, the accompaniment is different (some of the suspensions are gone, bass line is lower in the opening phrase).
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    With HGWPTN I find if I play the tune without extra notes or repeats (neither of which appear in any chorale prelude of Grosser Gott I've seen) as the introduction people sing it correctly. And without the repeat there's time to sing the verses left out of OCP.
  • HGWPTN: I grew up with the added eighth notes, and I really don't mind them. For a while at Our Lady of Walsingham, I left them out, and the repeat, as found in The Hymnal 1940. But in my later years there, once I had Finale up and running and we had more and more cradle Catholics in the congregation, I decided to leave them in. I can live with the repeats (so long as the tempo is uplifting in a very German style), at least for the singing of 3 verses or less. But you know, The Hymnal 1982 contains all 7 verses - including metrical verses of the ending suffrages! I'd just as soon leave out the repeats and sing them all!

    GoFW: I agree also - it's not my favorite HYMN, but it IS a HYMN!
  • Jscola30
    Posts: 116
    Steve your absoultely right, you must play that hymn in an uplifiting way. I've heard it drag so many times, and yes once, too fast, sounded like a Vienneize waltz. I think its sad the only hymnal with all 7 vs. is an episcopal hymna,, since HGWPTN is one of the Catholic hymns. Only the summit choir book comes close with 5.
  • I seem to remember HP&SC having 5 verses, but I'm at work now. Two points to make, though:

    1) Many cradle Catholics don't know the "Te Deum", or even about it. Some might even regard it as an Anglican thing, which it is ONLY because they have been observing the Offices publicly for centuries. I love to inform them what it is they're singing!

    2) None of us should shun, without reservation, either The Hymnal 1940 or 1982. They contain hymns that:
    a) have orthodox Catholic underpinning with clear translations;
    b) include many hymns by Catholics, even catholic priests of historic note.
  • Here are the 8 verses of HGWPTN. I hadn't seen all these until a recent old book we scanned and book online

    Holy God, we praise Thy Name,
    Lord of all, we bow before Thee;
    All on earth Thy scepter claim,
    . All in heaven above adore Thee;
    Infinite Thy vast domain,
    Everlasting is Thy reign.

    Hark, the loud celestial hymn
    Angel choirs above are raising;
    Cherubim and Seraphim
    In unceasing chorus praising,
    Fill the heavens with sweet accord;
    Holy, Holy, Holy Lord!

    Lo, the Apostolic train
    Join, Thy sacred Name to hallow:
    Prophets swell the loud refrain,
    And the white-robed Martyrs follow;
    And, from morn till set of sun,
    Through the Church the song goes on.

    Holy Father, Holy Son,
    Holy Spirit, Three we name Thee,
    While in Essence only One,
    Undivided God we claim Thee:
    And, adoring, bend the knee
    While we own the mystery.

    Thou art King of glory, Christ;
    Son of God, yet born of Mary;
    For us sinners sacrificed,
    And to death a tributary:
    First to break the bars of death,
    Thou hast opened heaven to faith.

    From Thy high celestial home,
    Judge of all, again returning,
    We believe that Thou shalt come
    In the dreadful Doomsday morning;
    When Thy voice shall shake the earth,
    And the startled dead come forth.

    Therefore do we pray Thee, Lord:
    Help Thy servants whom, redeeming
    By Thy Precious Blood outpoured,
    Thou hast saved from Satan's scheming.
    Give to them eternal rest
    In the glory of the Blest.

    Spare Thy people, Lord, we pray,
    By a thousand snares surrounded:
    Keep us without sin to-day,
    Never let us be confounded.
    Lo, I put my trust in Thee;
    Never, Lord, abandon me.
    Thanked by 1expeditus1
  • Steve,

    The 1940 hymnal is, in fact, the hymnal used by Anglican Use parishes - at least, the one in the pews at Our Lady of Walsingham here in town.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Isn't Steve the organist at OLW?

    I must confess, everytime I hear of the Anglican Use I turn a deep shade of green and start cursing in Shakespearean English. I say we fix the EF vs. OF problem and just abolish them both for the Anglican Use, eh? :P
  • I was the Kantor/Organist/Music Director there from August 1986 to Epiphany 2003. Yes, we used the 1940 extensively - about 300 of the 650 hymns through each 3-year cycle. But we also used "Hymns III" and "The Collegeville Hymnal", not to mention anything else I could put together from other sources using Finale.

    As much as I love the AU, and had such a great experience at OLW for 16+ years, I think/feel that it did a great job of preparing me for providing music at the EF Mass. While I did grow up with it, from a parochial school singing standpoint, I didn't not start playing the organ in church until almost 2 years after Vat. II.

    My first Latin Mass as organist was at OLW. But my first playing for the EF Mass happened here in Charleston after the age of 50!
  • G
    Posts: 1,391
    Pardon my ignorance, what is "Hymns III"? An Episcopalian interim between the 1940 and the 1982 hymnals?

    Geri

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • It was a Hymnal Supplement. There were a number of them (obviously). Some had new Responsorial Psalms, some had new Communion Settings, etc. The 1st supplement was actually bound into the later editions of H '40. It had about 40 hymns - same texts as the 600 in the H '40, but different tunes; a couple of Psalms and Canticles to newer Anglican chants, and a couple of Communion Settings. "Hymns III" was the 3rd such supplement, and had only hymns in it - about 100 of them. Almost none of them made the cut for The Hymnal 1982!
  • Gavin wrote:
    I must confess, everytime I hear of the Anglican Use I turn a deep shade of green and start cursing in Shakespearean English. I say we fix the EF vs. OF problem and just abolish them both for the Anglican Use, eh? :P


    I think the AU benefits from being outside the mainstream of Catholic liturgical culture - heck, my parish mission had a guy in from the Chicago archdiocese who does liturgical architecture, and he had forgotten about the AU. AU parishes are commuter parishes attended, by and large, by people who care so much they’ll drive across town for an AU Mass.

    The “main” morning Mass at OLW that I attended was indeed pretty cool. The choir invited me to sing as a guest, so I couldn’t hear how well the congregation sang, unfortunately.
  • Jscola30
    Posts: 116
    I heard B16 is a fan of the AU.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,612

    ...sifted.

    We sang WGOFW today at Mass. During the singing of the hymn, I was quietly asking God for some insight as to why this hymn could be an issue. As I sat reading the words, here is what occurred to me. I am not saying this is God's insight, I am just saying I ASKED. Again, the problem with a LOT of our music is in the music, yes, but MORESO in the theology. This is where the REAL danger lies.


    While this piece has no blatant heresy like many others, it has within it a cloaked (insidious) double meaning in much of its phraseology. This is played out in the two-fold aspect of the Liturgy as a SACRIFICE and a MEAL. This is tangentially presented to us in terms of Catholic Christian as opposed to Protestant Christian theology. Only in the Catholic church is the fullness of the faith and truth.


    First I will present the entire text and then the comments with supporting documentation.


    _______________________________


    music and lyrics: Robert E. Kreutz


    refrain

    You satisfy the hungry heart with gift of finest wheat,

    come give to us o saving Lord, the bread of life to eat.


    verse 1

    as when the shepherd calls his sheep, they know and heed his voice;

    so when You call Your family Lord, we follow and rejoice.


    (refrain)


    verse 2

    with joyful lips we sing to You, our praise and gratitude,

    that You should count us worthy Lord, to share this heavenly food.


    (refrain)


    verse 3

    the mystery of Your presence Lord, no mortal tongue can tell;

    whom all the world cannot contain comes in our hearts to dwell.


    (refrain)


    verse 4

    You give yourself to us o Lord, then selfless let us be,

    to serve each other in Your name in truth and charity.


    (refrain)


    ___________________________


    Comments:


    refrain

    You satisfy the hungry heart with gift of finest wheat,

    come give to us o saving Lord, the bread of life to eat.


    This is sung over and over meaning it is the part of the hymn that is 'drilled' into us. There are basic theological problems that assault (notice I did not say are in opposition to) the very truths of Catholic Doctrine in the Blessed Sacrament. Again, the double-meaning makes this a subtle assertion that leads one away from the solid foundation of Doctrine.


    When we are receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, it's NOT wheat or wine anymore. It actually is the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ at this point in time but has the 'appearance of bread and wine'. We do not eat bread and wine, we eat flesh and blood, each fully present in each of the species. In Protestant doctrine, it is ONLY wheat and wine (or juice), before and after. (1)


    _____________________


    verse 1

    as when the shepherd calls his sheep, they know and heed his voice;

    so when You call Your family Lord, we follow and rejoice.


    Again, Jesus says, It is not those who say, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name?..." But those who did the will of my Father. Unless you eat of the FLESH and of the Son of Man and drink his BLOOD you will NOT have life within you. ALL Christians are not the ONE big happy family proported here. Jesus made it clear that we MUST eat his flesh and blood. That only happens in the Catholic Church.


    _____________________


    verse 2

    with joyful lips we sing to You, our praise and gratitude,

    that You should count us worthy Lord, to share this heavenly food.


    Basically, this verse connotes a double meaning that because we are singing God's praise and gratitude, He SHOULD find us worthy to eat the 'heavenly food'. It is not manna, such as that which was found in the Old Testament. It is again, FLESH and BLOOD.


    As for the importance of our singing, truth be told, if we sang NOTHING at all, it would make no difference to the saving act of the Sacrfice of the Mass.


    We have nothing to 'add' to the Mass to make ourselves worthy. Christ has done it all in offering his Body and Blood for us. All we can do is accept it as He 'represents' himself to the Father in the application of his sacrifice for our sin in an ongoing way. (2) This is where the whole notion of vocal 'participation' doesn't hold a drop of water. Our participation in the Mass adds nothing to its value or our redemption, and our lack of vocal 'participation' takes nothing away from its efficacy.


    _____________________


    verse 3

    the mystery of Your presence Lord, no mortal tongue can tell;

    whom all the world cannot contain comes in our hearts to dwell.


    Actually, we tell the mystery plain and clear. God dwells in the tabernacle and in the very species of bread and wine in His very FLESH and BLOOD. The mystery remains in the fact that ALL OF GOD IS contained right there! This verse practically goes in direct opposition to the very truth of Thomas Aquinas most famous hymn:


    PANGE, lingua, gloriosi

    Corporis mysterium,

    Sanguinisque pretiosi,

    quem in mundi pretium

    fructus ventris generosi

    Rex effudit Gentium.


    SING, my tongue, the Savior's glory,

    of His flesh the mystery sing;

    of the Blood, all price exceeding,

    shed by our immortal King,

    destined, for the world's redemption,

    from a noble womb to spring.


    But it's even more insidious still. It is ONLY the very TONGUE OF THE PRIEST that makes the mystery complete in SPEAKING the words of transubstantiation.


    ______


    verse 4

    You give yourself to us o Lord, then selfless let us be,

    to serve each other in Your name in truth and charity.


    This one is almost completely air tight. However, Christ ONLY gives Himself to us through the hands and actions of the priest THROUGH the Sacrfice of the Mass and through the sacraments which impart grace. This one is somewhat referring back to the preceding verses in a very vague and undefined way. In other words, if this hymn was sung by a Catholic in a Protestant church service, it would seem completely and unequivocally true in that setting!


    I would definitely prefer to SING, my tongue, the Savior's glory, and of His flesh the mystery sing in place of GOFW every time. Other than that, I don't see anything wrong with this hymn at all!


    Thanked by 1SBCpianoman
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Francis, I'm glad to see your critiques, but I don't think they hold water as a criticism. And the question still remains: do you judge the hymn worthy of Mass or not? Versus Pange Lingua, I'm not sure which I'd choose. I have a high opinion of GoFW, but I suppose when it comes to Eucharistic hymns I like "Alleluia, Sing to Jesus" the best. Or "Lord, enthroned in Heavenly Splendor". Or "Schumche Dich", but that's a tangent :P I'm dealing less with the quality of the text or music and more of if the music or text are of such a low or ungodly quality that it should not be heard at Mass.

    As to why I don't agree with your critiques, I think a lot of it boils down to "these words can be understood in a way which contradicts Catholic doctrine." However, I'd make the case that then we should remove EVERYTHING from Mass except the Credo and Aquinas's hymns - oh, but those protestants say the creed, so away it goes too! I mean look at the sign of the cross: are we invoking the 3 Gods of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (polytheism) or the One God in different manifestations yet the same Father (modalism), etc? Unless you're talking Eastern Orthodoxy, the Mass itself is NEVER so clear-cut in doctrine as you demand in GoFW.

    Consider, as you mention, that the Sacrament is both meal and sacrifice. In fact, both terms are self-supporting: in the old Jewish ritual, the priest would eat the victim after sacrifice. Hence the Sacrament! If Christ is not sacrificed, we have no purpose in eating Him; if not eaten, then the Sacrifice is not accomplished. So "Meal hymns" are appropriate, SO LONG AS they do not contradict, but rather expose in light of, the sacrificial aspect. And they must be used wisely so that your congregation still understands the Mass as primarily Sacrifice. That said, the term "bread" is eminently appropriate: Christ called Himself "bread" often. When we speak of the "bread of life", we're NOT referring to the product of baking wheat, we're talking about Christ who is received in the Sacrament! "This heavenly food" is CHRIST! If your congregation can't understand that, it's your fault for not using enough hymns with the details of the presence, such as the Aquinas hymns. Well, usually it's NOT your fault, but your priest's. But there's nothing we can do about that! If your priest is teaching that you receive "bread and wine" with no symbolism intended, DON'T use this hymn! Sing Aquinas every day! But if your congregation by and large understands the teachings of the Real Presence and the associated symbolism, it works.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,612
    Hi Gavin:

    You are welcome to think whatever you may. These are just my own reflections and observations just as you are free to express your thoughts and observations.

    I am glad you think we should begin removing questionable content from the Mass. That is a step in the right direction. If you will notice further up, I found no outright error in the text of this hymn. It is harmless (to those who know and believe the faith). Unfortunately, a poll was taken a while back (I have been searching for the stats), and only 27% of Catholics actually believe in the Real Presence in America. Do you think our hymns, texts and writings and the lack of catechesis have anything to do with this? I certainly do!

    You are right. The Mass is BOTH a meal and a sacrifice. Unfortunately, I cannot find ANY hymns that talk about the sacrifice that are newly composed. Please point me to them!
    Thanked by 1SBCpianoman
  • G
    Posts: 1,391
    "If you will notice further up, I found no outright error in the text of this hymn. It is harmless (to those who know and believe the faith). ...The Mass is BOTH a meal and a sacrifice. Unfortunately, I cannot find ANY hymns that talk about the sacrifice that are newly composed."

    I think this is a very important point.
    I cannot speak to whether there are any newly composed texts that speak to the Mass as Sacrifice, and frankly it doesn't matter, as there are many older texts that do.
    What does matter is how often we sing/pray the one idea and how often the other.
    If the overwhelming emphasis is on one, such prayer cannot help but give those who pray it a distorted and deformed belief.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,612
    G:

    It is the MAIN point, because Catholicism is under full attack by those who wish to empty it of its power... the Eucharistic Sacrifce of Jesus and his saving us by giving us His Body and Blood. If I wanted to celebrate the 'meal' and sing 'happy communal songs about our hanging out at the table with our good friend, Jesus', I would join a Protestant church. They do this MUCH better than Catholics--the music, the fun, the spectacle of it all. But a meal is all you get! You don't get Jesus himself [through sacrfice and consumation].
  • Gavin,
    It is difficult for me to see Gift of Finest Wheat as in any way approaching a Gregorian chant . . . Taize, perhaps, but no where close to a Gregorian chant.
  • As communion music, I'd say it trumps "Panis Angelicus", with the Lambilotte tune which makes use of romanticized chromaticism to get effect


    Easy. Just use Franck (Panis Angelicus), even if without the harmony. It's nicer than Lambilotte anyways. Just make sure to get an edition with the second verse text.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,669
    This was a thread about hymns... you're not suggesting using the Franck Panis Angelicus as a congregational hymn, are you?
  • Remember that other conversation we were having in 2008?

    I just thought I'd add "Yes, I just tried buying that the other day and it was great. Thanks for the suggestion."
  • This was a thread about hymns... you're not suggesting using the Franck Panis Angelicus as a congregational hymn, are you?


    No. An anthem.
  • Gift of...sounds like musical theater, a modernized version of sickly sweet harmonies found in operetta. In Europe theater singers are in one of three groups: 1. Opera 2. Operetta 3. Chorus

    It's a clear delineation of what a singer is capable of. A few were able to cross over, but were often criticized for it. Hymns and music that are not hymns are also clearly delineated by the ear.

    Gift does not, in any version, sound like hymn. It, like the Prayer of St. Francis, does not flash the image of a church in your mind and would never be picked by a filmmaker to he heard during a scene in a church.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,412
    I'm glad that we have such a depth of archived conversation here that people feel they can add comments to a discussion from SEVEN YEARS AGO.
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,612
    Adam:

    Why are you commenting on a discussion from 2008?
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • I'm glad that we have such a depth of archived conversation here that people feel they can add comments to a discussion from SEVEN YEARS AGO.


    I'm not knocking having an archive. It's just ridiculous to pick up a seven year old conversation as though it's going on. And in some cases, such as one that came up about employment situations, it actually causes great confusion (as in the case where I said something from a 6 year old thread, and someone else chimed in with "Wow, I didn't know things were like that there, if you're looking to leave though, I'm interested!" The comments I made weren't even in connection with my current job, since, you know, the thread was six years old.

    How hard is it to start a new thread, with people still here since some of these folks aren't anymore, and say "I've been considering the text of Gift of Finest Wheat, and although this has been discussed before, I have some ideas ..."?
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Seven years and no one has budged my opinion on it an inch.

    I'm still right.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,360
    'Tis seven long years,
    since last I've seen you,
    Away, you...
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,368
    The major text-writing problem / gaffe/ thingie to be avoided at all costs is in the first sentence of the refrain. See it?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,368
    Re: new hymns referring to sacrifice: http://www.canticanova.com/articles/hymns/art2i1.htm
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,862
    Rev. Fr. I think you comment belongs in the one about the Virginia State Song.
  • You mean, like, it's not... not... grammatical?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,412
    Yeah, so I don't have any problem with the style of the piece. But the text?

    I think, given the confusions surrounding Eucharistic theology so pervasive in the contemporary church, it is at least an imprudent song to be singing.

    Not heretical, merely unwise.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,737
    So, ChantingOrgan, did you come looking for a thread about "Gift Of Finest Wheat" and find this six-year-old conversation? (It's old enough to be talking on its own!)
  • Isn't it a rule to not start a new thread if we can find a similar one? So what do I do: start a new one or bump this one? I was just commenting on Panis Angelicus, not Gift of Finest Wheat.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,612
    O what the thread! This is the internet... who ever heard of rules...
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 209
    Adam Wood: "Not heretical, merely unwise."

    Or perhaps prophetic:

    Ps. 81:16 I would feed you with the finest of the wheat, and with honey from the rock I would satisfy you.”

    Ps. 147:14 He makes peace in your borders; he fills you with the finest of the wheat.

    As a Eucharistic description, "gift of finest wheat" perhaps falls short. As prophecy though, it is well in line with prophetic elements in the Psalms and Old Testament.
    Thanked by 3Gavin Spriggo Adam Wood
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I don't see the issue with resurrecting old threads. Do we REALLY want 150 threads entitled "WHY I THINK VOX DEI IS BAD!!!1!"? I'd rather have one thread for that discussion and let that be the place for it.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,368
    The Scripture is there--but singular nouns in English take articles.



  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,862
    My main objection to this song is rooted in bad enunciation of the 't' of 'wheat' - is it really appropriate in this day and age to sing about 'gifts of finest weed'? Or worse: 'gifts of finest wee'? I've heard both of these sung on several occasions.